So... Arnold

[JasonPratt]

so much for meaningful discourse.

Oh, I have plenty of meaningful things I want to say, but that would only Cara Dune the thread.    I'm not complaining about that, I understand the peacekeeping goal, I'm just being realistic.

I can't even summarize what I mean. Can I at least smirk about Arnold and/or his producers using a 4-chan prank sarcastically instigated against the conflation of political and cultural opponents as Kla/nazis? I doubt it.

[Skoop]

It's a good and reflective video. Hopefully family and friends send it to loved ones who have been radicalized by the far right and have gone deep in the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories. I'd like to think his message will breakthrough to some.

This is exactly why we can't have these conversations and post things like this video that arguably bear a universally acceptable message. What the hell does "far right" mean? How is that defined? I'm a conservative. Pretty "far right" conservative. Does that make me a hate filled racist by your definition of "far right"? "Far leftists" also are hate-filled, and yes, they can be racist conspircy theorists too. Heard of Russian collusion? How did that one age?

The questions I asked above are rhetorical. Do not answer them. I expect the discussion and any political context that has been inserted into it to end.

Thanks.

I'd agree with that, the 2 extremes of our political spectrum make similar mistakes.  Could we have a 3rd party in American politics and name it "The Common Sense Party" and it's dominated by a moderate platform.  I get the feeling if this came to fruition, the other two parties would be obsolete and we would just have one party.......

[W8taminute]

Kind of back on topic. 

All humans from all tribes and groups have at one point or another hated someone or some group.  But history is full of examples, even today right now, of anti-Semitism being the kind of hate that goes beyond irrational and all explanation.  It not only borderlines 100% pure evil, it exceeds it by leaps and bounds.

So if you think about why this group of people in the whole world receive such hatred that is beyond explanation what does that say to you?  Israel was attacked on day 1 of it's creation, in fact within hours of it's creation.  And this happened not very long after the Holocaust.  You would think the world would have been accommodating but no.  Instead out right violence and war. 

Could this be the physical proof of the existence of something that we can't see (both evil and good)?  I'll leave it there but you gotta admit it's food for thought, no? 

And I beg you all, please be careful if you want to counter my theory.  Use indirect methods removed several levels away from what you really want to say.  You will never hurt my feelings so DM me if you want to really go off on me.  Like Jack Burton always says, "I can take it!"

[SirAndrewD]

Could this be the physical proof of the existence of something that we can't see (both evil and good)?  I'll leave it there but you gotta admit it's food for thought, no? 

Food for thought?  No.

It's a symptom of a macro historical problem.  One of a region that gave origin to earliest civilizations and led to a very natural idealistic conflict between the areas patron gods until one became triumphant, Mostly based on a kind of survivors guilt to the stronger beliefs constantly losing in national and military conflicts to its neighbors until the southern god YHWH was promoted over the constant defeated god El and finally conflagrated into a 1st Century Jewish Rabbi's cult.

To a certain region after their experience in the Babylonian Exile and that gave birth to a nationalist religion that grew into a widely accepted one. 

This is how we make myths our truth.

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

That....and Gus won't let you use the giant space laser.  I was just gonna use it on a Saturday, Gus!  It's the Sabbath.  It's not like you're gonna use it on that day anyway...

[W8taminute]

Could this be the physical proof of the existence of something that we can't see (both evil and good)?  I'll leave it there but you gotta admit it's food for thought, no? 

Food for thought?  No.

It's a symptom of a macro historical problem.  One of a region that gave origin to earliest civilizations and led to a very natural idealistic conflict between the areas patron gods until one became triumphant, Mostly based on a kind of survivors guilt to the stronger beliefs constantly losing in national and military conflicts to its neighbors until the southern god YHWH was promoted over the constant defeated god El and finally conflagrated into a 1st Century Jewish Rabbi's cult.

To a certain region after their experience in the Babylonian Exile and that gave birth to a nationalist religion that grew into a widely accepted one. 

This is how we make myths our truth.

Very interesting observations SirAndrew.  You do bring up some good points, particularly the conflict between the areas patron gods and the ultimate result.  I think you're on to something.  I disagree with myths becoming truth but I understand what you mean. 

What if, however, the truth was always the truth but we messed up and thought it was a myth? 

[Gusington]

Wait your damned turn, Robot.

[JasonPratt]

The strongest-group-wins-the-myth doesn't exactly fit the Jewish situation however: even starting in the Tanahk (what we Christians call the Old Testament), much of the point to the textual collection is about how the Jews DON'T win after all but go down in flames to stronger armies with, on this theory, stronger myths. Repeatedly. And yet they're gone, but Judaism (as a religion) and the Jewish people (as a culture group based largely though not entirely on family relationships) have kept on going, despite all the persecutions and pogroms and genocides, up to and including the original topic for this thread -- so much so that the nation, per se (somewhat distinct from the religion and the family group), has itself returned from the dead at long, long last!

That's rather different as a situation from, let's say, the Romany / Gypsies as an example. They persist in their own (somewhat syncretistic) cultural group, but they don't thrive, and succeed so hard that they eventually re-establish a lost nation-state (even with plenty of help). That's at least super-rare in human history, and might be unique; much less do archaic survival groups who have been drastically persecuted over thousands of years (not only hundreds, thousands) contribute solidly to the basis of a civilization ("Western Civ") so pervasive that it even contributes to other civilization bases across the world.

The Kurds have been around a lot of centuries, and have survived a lot of persecutions, even genocidal ones, down to the present day. But they aren't a substantial basis for human civilization. W8's own Armenian group (as he's well aware) has been around a lot of centuries, and has survived a lot of genocidal persecutions, even down to the present day. But their only noticeable contribution to Western Civ (aside from Casey Kasem!) has been to pick up and help carry along the gifts of the Jews, so to speak.

These are things worth considering, not only in looking at why Jews have been so persecuted over history, and why they have survived and wildly succeeded despite all that misery and genocide, but also why (arguably) they should be protected and fostered as a cultural group (not only as individuals) where feasibly possible -- and even with risks where not feasibly possible!

It can be argued that, in various ways, this is the ultimate example (and the Ur-example, so to speak) of the strongest myth surviving to thrive. But not, overall, an example of the physically mightiest myth surviving to thrive: its value(s) don't ultimately come from the end of a speartip or the barrel of a gun, as has been amply proven over thousands of years.

 

...putting it another way, using a very recent mythopoeic language: everyone in the world today more-or-less benefits from, and even has access to use, the Jewish Space Laser!!  (Even Nazi Germany in their own Godawful ways.) That's still true even when, sadly, we're using it against each other.

But whatever that "Space Laser" really is, it isn't simply the barrel of a gun; much less is the "Space Laer" only a side effect of having better spears or using bows more effectively. The Jews, of all people everywhere, show that in their history well enough.


Which is always worth thinking about as the oldest running holiday celebrating freedom, not only for some people but ultimately for all people, approaches once again.

[W8taminute]

Well written Jason.  Thanks for that input. 

[Sir Slash]

WAY over my head but the Giant Space Laser I can identify with. Why do you think I make a point of being so considerate to Gus? 

[Gusington]

 

[FarAway Sooner]

Does the Giant Space Laser make the "pew pew" sound when it fires?  I sure hope so...

I think it's really hard to weigh the relative amounts of "human misery" across history in any reasonable fashion.  That doesn't mean that we can't try, but it does suggest that the exercise will be fraught with ambiguity and different opinions.

Jason raises some interesting points, assuredly.  A number of things about the Jewish example seem most remarkable because history is full of such heinous atrocities committed against different peoples.  The two things that set the Jewish experience apart seem to be, as I think Jason suggests:  1) their survival through thousands of years of history;  2) their survival as a significant element in European history of the last few hundred years, during which time Western traditions (including the spread of Judaeo-Christian faiths) have written much of what we know today as history.

I wonder, and have no idea how to answer the question, whether there are other ethnic/religious groups (in Africa or Asia or South/Central America) who have faced similar journeys and survive to this day, that we simply don't know about?  (through some accidents of history or human perception)

I don't mean to suggest that there are or that there aren't.  I simply don't know.

[Sir Slash]

The Giant Space Laser makes whatever kind of sound it wants to. No one's going to argue with it. And by the time you hear it...it's already too late to ask, "Hey, what the hell's that sound"? 

The Jews story is remarkable in all of Human History because of their ability to remain one People with one common language and distinct culture despite the very many  cultural earthquakes, persecutions, pogroms, and discriminations, etc. they have suffered through. Whether it's because of their Faith or just plain old damned stubbornness it's not easy to tell. But it has served them well.

[GDS_Starfury]

lets go with sheer stubbornness as JH and my own personality show.   

[JasonPratt]

The Irish might come closest to a historical parallel, although they owe part of their cultural survival to a wholesale acceptance of Jewish influence and principles in modifying their culture (even though not always accepting Jewish people).

Sheer stubbornness either way, definitely helps! 

And as a general rule, the Giant Space Laser, being in space, tends not to be heard -- unless it's doing something on Earth, of course. Then, as might be expected, the effect varies, depending on a bunch of factors.