I'm not sure how I feel about this....

Started by Centurion40, January 31, 2012, 10:31:19 AM

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Centurion40

Quote
When a judge ruled that Alejandrina Cabrera's name couldn't be on the ballot for City Council in San Luis, Arizona, because she couldn't speak English well enough, it was not only a blow to her, but to her fellow citizens, Cabrera told CNN.

"When he took my right to be on the ballot he took away the right of the people who want to vote for me," Cabrera said in an interview conducted in Spanish with CNN en EspaƱol.

A battle over Cabrera's run for office began when Juan Carlos Escamilla, the mayor of San Luis, said he was concerned that Cabrera might not have the proper grasp of the language for the job. Escamilla filed a lawsuit in December that asked a court to determine whether Cabrera's skills qualified her under state law to run for the council seat.

Quote
The issues at the center of this debate: Just how much English must you understand to run for a political office? And what does it mean to be proficient?

According to a judge, you need to know more English than Cabrera was able to demonstrate.

But by Cabrera's account, she's fluent enough to serve her community, and she isn't running for national office.

"I think my English is good enough to hold public office in San Luis, Arizona," she told CNN.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/30/city-council-hopeful-my-english-is-good-enough/?hpt=hp_bn1

I mean, shouldn't it be up to the voter to decide?

Any time is a good time for pie.

bayonetbrant

Quote from: Centurion40 on January 31, 2012, 10:31:19 AM
Quote
he was concerned that Cabrera might not have the proper grasp of the language for the job

Wouldn't this have ruled out Charlie Rangell, Al D'Amato, Strom Thurmond, Jessie Helms, and any number of guys who held office for a loooooong time.  I mean, how would Al Sharpton ever be able to run?
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Jarhead0331

#2
Well this is how I feel about it.

Here is the ultimate root of the problem in my opinion.  There is no national language in the United States.  It should be English, plain and simple, end of discussion.  If we had English as the national language, there would be no ambiguity or debate over this issue.

Personally, I don't really care how many of her potential constituents do not speak English.  Maybe if their own elected officials speak English, it will give the voters some incentive to actually learn the language and become a part of the Country, rather than just stick to their own segregated communities.  Think about where this will lead.  If the legislators don't even speak English, what kind of laws will they propose and support?  All street signs must be bi-lingual too? The Peso should be accepted as legal tender in local stores?

Enough with the nonsense. This is still the USA last time I checked.

Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Centurion40

What??!!!  The official language of the US hasn't been defined as English???!!!  Holy shit!  Well there's your problem right there!

It would seem to me that any given legislature, assembly, council, etc. should be operating in English, as English is the official language.  If "the people" decide to elect someone to represent them in any given council, legislature, etc., and that person cannot speak English well enough to understand what is going on, or fully represent their constituents, than that is the problem of the people who voted the non-English speaker into office.
Any time is a good time for pie.

Jarhead0331

Quote from: Centurion40 on January 31, 2012, 11:06:58 AM
...as English is the official language...

That's just the problem.  English is not the official language of the US.  It should be, legally.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Centurion40

Have any of the states established English as the official language?  Do you know?

Damn!  I would have thought that the US federal government would have established an official language!!!

This is astounding to me.
Any time is a good time for pie.

bayonetbrant

#6
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 31, 2012, 11:16:17 AM
Damn!  I would have thought that the US federal government would have established an official language!!!

Nobody cared until it got so far along that it's become a hot-button topic used to paint proponents of it as anti-immigrant racists.

No doubt there's an anti-immigrant racist out there that would support such legislation, but that doesn't mean that everyone who supports it al an anti-immigrant racist.
There are drunken, violent buffoons who support the Oakland Raiders, but that doesn't mean that everyone who supports the Raiders are drunken, viol...  uh, OK - bad example  :o
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

Jarhead0331

#7
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 31, 2012, 11:16:17 AM
Have any of the states established English as the official language?  Do you know?


Per wiki:

Quote
As of April 2011[update], out of 50 states, 27 established English as the official language, including Hawaii where English and Hawaiian are both official.

Interestingly, Arizona has had English as the official state language since 2006.  It would not surprise me if the media outlets reporting this story omit that fact.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


LongBlade

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 31, 2012, 11:29:11 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 31, 2012, 11:16:17 AM
Have any of the states established English as the official language?  Do you know?


Per wiki:

Quote
As of April 2011[update], out of 50 states, 27 established English as the official language, including Hawaii where English and Hawaiian are both official.

Interestingly, Arizona has had English as the official state language since 2006.  It would not surprise me if the media outlets reporting this story omit that fact.

And that's what the present fight is over: she speaks a little English - the fight is over whether it's competent enough.

The problem as I see it isn't that we have immigrants who can't speak the language - my grandfather on my dad's side lived in the Polish side of Chicago and from what I gather never mastered much of English. There's no problem there.

Our problem is that our country is awash in immigrants who got here by virtue of the fact that there wasn't anyone blocking the way across the river. And there are a *ton* of them. Controlled levels of immigration whose objective is to become American is different than uncontrolled migration with no other aim than to suck up money, send it home to prop up the family, and do so without getting caught. The entire process starts off on the wrong foot - illegally - and the result is a gap of culture, language, and legality. Good things can happen through this process, but there's plenty of riff-raff to go along with the good.

Better we control our borders. The language issue will take care of itself by the second generation if everyone here enters legally an is working legally and wants to become a citizen of our great nation.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Centurion40

Maybe, once Mitt gets the Republican coronation, he could campaign on an "American-English is the national language" platform.  Might rally the "Mitt isn't conservative enough for us" Republicans behind him.

Certainly a 'no-brainer' for the sensible.
Any time is a good time for pie.

Jarhead0331

Quote from: Centurion40 on January 31, 2012, 02:45:02 PM
Maybe, once Mitt gets the Republican coronation, he could campaign on an "American-English is the national language" platform.  Might rally the "Mitt isn't conservative enough for us" Republicans behind him.

Certainly a 'no-brainer' for the sensible.

Wishful thinking. Mitt is probably the most liberal candidate up there.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


LongBlade

I'm afraid we've got bigger issues at the moment than the official language. Good suggestion. Maybe it can be one of the planks.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

son_of_montfort

#12
Color me shocked again, people I know to be anti-Federalists advocating a Federally sponsored official language.  ;D

But seriously, I don't really support an official language. English is already the De Facto official language of administration in the United States, but that is a big leap from making this De Jure. A largely unnecessary leap that goes against the principles of our foundation and our history.

Jarhead already pointed out that certain states have declared the official language of the state to be English. IMHO, this is the proper level for that decision.

Just FYI:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 31, 2012, 11:29:11 AM

Interestingly, Arizona has had English as the official state language since 2006.  It would not surprise me if the media outlets reporting this story omit that fact.

From the OP article:
QuoteIn 2006, Arizona passed a law that made English the official language of the state. Earlier, in 1910, Congress passed the Enabling Act, which allowed Arizona to become a state with certain requirements. Among them was one that addressed the English language.

I think this is how they can legally justify removing her from the ballot.
"Now it is no accident all these conservatives are using time travel to teach our kids. It is the best way to fight back against the liberal version of history, or as it is sometimes known... history."

- Stephen Colbert

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Jarhead0331

Quote from: son_of_montfort on January 31, 2012, 05:30:08 PM
Color me shocked again, people I know to be anti-Federalists advocating a Federally sponsored official language.  ;D

This is not an altogether bad argument, however, I would argue that this is exactly one of the few things the Federal government has a mandate to do.  I think it easily fits within the ambit of reasonable regulations under the commerce clause and regulation of interstate commerce. I dunno.  Its not an issue that I'm typically hot on, but it annoys me when immigrants, mostly illegal ones, want their national language to replace English in this country.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


son_of_montfort

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 31, 2012, 06:04:00 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on January 31, 2012, 05:30:08 PM
Color me shocked again, people I know to be anti-Federalists advocating a Federally sponsored official language.  ;D

This is not an altogether bad argument, however, I would argue that this is exactly one of the few things the Federal government has a mandate to do.  I think it easily fits within the ambit of reasonable regulations under the commerce clause and regulation of interstate commerce. I dunno.  Its not an issue that I'm typically hot on, but it annoys me when immigrants, mostly illegal ones, want their national language to replace English in this country.

Well, the beauty of not having an official language that is federally mandated is that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) can't officially replace English.  ;)

I'm pretty happy with state control of it, and if someone wants to argue about the Constitutionality of practice, let them go through the states first.
"Now it is no accident all these conservatives are using time travel to teach our kids. It is the best way to fight back against the liberal version of history, or as it is sometimes known... history."

- Stephen Colbert

"The purpose of religion is to answer the ultimate question, are we in control or is there some greater force pulling the strings? And if the courts rule that corporations have the same religious rights that we humans do, I think we'll have our answer."

- Stephen Colbert