Another lone gunman

[LongBlade]

^OK...so now you're not allowed to hate people or keep to yourself without being accused of being a mass murderer?  All I'm saying is you're walking a dangerous line.  There are plenty of skinheads and KKK members who have not committed massacres. I'm not defending them, but they have a right to their own beliefs, no matter how reprehensible, and they are entitled to express those beliefs without increased governmental scrutiny.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm asking is what price our liberty is buying security? We have a Patriot Act in place which we know suspends the 4th Amendment. What has it done? Was this guy being watched? If not, why? If so, why, and why wasn't this caught?

We flush millions, if not billions of dollars into a black hole of "homeland security." I want to know where my money is going and why.

This guy had a number of red flags that, by any reasonable measure, should have put him on a watch list.

I am *not* arguing for greater violations of the 4th Amendment.

What I am questioning is the use of said watch lists (and the loss of our 4th Amendment) if they're ineffective.

[Jarhead0331]

^Ahhhh...gotcha.

[LongBlade]

^Ahhhh...gotcha.

Someone will trot out the old line that a "lone wolf" is very difficult to find. I can understand that.

But I would suggest that if we relied more on the public and less on the government , we'd probably catch more of them. It's not like the last three or so shooters were exactly hiding what they were up to. Singing hate songs at every concert that will tolerate you isn't exactly like finding a needle in a haystack. I'm not sure what passes for brains at DHS but this doesn't look like rocket science.

[Bison]

The Army vet reference should always be followed up with two key points: 1) he never served in either of the Iraq or Afghanistan conflicts and 2) he was dishonorably discharged in 1996.

[LongBlade]

he was dishonorably discharged in 1996.

Probably the most salient point there, but both are valid.

I read an article someplace that he even got fired from some hate group he had joined because he kept showing up drunk. If that's right you know he must have been a wreck.

[Bison]

The first point is related to the fact that the media loves to run with stories about military f'ups and wide paint brush the entire service or war efforts in one fell swipe.  It fits their political milleu.

[Pining]

^Ahhhh...gotcha.

Someone will trot out the old line that a "lone wolf" is very difficult to find. I can understand that.

But I would suggest that if we relied more on the public and less on the government , we'd probably catch more of them. It's not like the last three or so shooters were exactly hiding what they were up to. Singing hate songs at every concert that will tolerate you isn't exactly like finding a needle in a haystack. I'm not sure what passes for brains at DHS but this doesn't look like rocket science.

How many people can you watch at one time?

Relying on public information comes down to assessing value. That takes a long time in itself.