Russia's War Against Ukraine

[Sir Slash]

I would think anywhere the Western tanks showed-up would be a huge distraction for the Orcs forcing them to deploy lots of assets against them even if the Ukrainians didn't plan on using them for battle. Throw in some convincing mock-ups and the Russkies could be chasing their tails around for weeks. That would be worth watching on Pay-Per-View. 

[Tripoli]

So, how many T-55s will it take to take on a Leopard II?

it will take 38 T55  (because the Leo2A6 has 37 rounds onboard)   

actually a few less but not much less.
 the Leopards, usualy operating in a group of 4, have to aim and reload and so a large group of tanks showing up simultan may score a softkill on the moving Leopards while old tanks  have to stop to fire, damaging optics, tracks, turret mechanic ... and the Leopard will fall back to get repairs

Great points

Combat Mission x2 Cold War actually has T-55s, and a very early M1 (pre M1A1 I believe)...no Leopards sadly.  I suppose I could whip up a quick scenario with 1 M1 vs a company of T-55s just to see what happens...:)

For those interested in how a CM2 protrays a scenario of M1 vs. T-55, check out this video from "Usually Hapless":  https://youtu.be/VjlHTJUP2Nk 

[ArizonaTank]

So, how many T-55s will it take to take on a Leopard II?

it will take 38 T55  (because the Leo2A6 has 37 rounds onboard) 

actually a few less but not much less.
 the Leopards, usualy operating in a group of 4, have to aim and reload and so a large group of tanks showing up simultan may score a softkill on the moving Leopards while old tanks  have to stop to fire, damaging optics, tracks, turret mechanic ... and the Leopard will fall back to get repairs

Great points

Combat Mission x2 Cold War actually has T-55s, and a very early M1 (pre M1A1 I believe)...no Leopards sadly.  I suppose I could whip up a quick scenario with 1 M1 vs a company of T-55s just to see what happens...:)

For those interested in how a CM2 protrays a scenario of M1 vs. T-55, check out this video from "Usually Hapless":  https://youtu.be/VjlHTJUP2Nk 

Good stuff!!! I forgot that CMSF2 has T-55s. Not to mention more upgraded Abrams.  Anyway, the video certainly give some food for thought. I would not want to be a Russian tanker.

[Tripoli]

In fairness, the Command Shock Force has more open (Desert) terrain, so the T-55 is even more disadvantaged than it would be in the Ukraine.  Regardless, I don't see the engagements in Ukraine ending up any better in a T-55 vs. +1985-era NATO tank. 

[Gusington]

I'm sure it has been discussed upthread and elsewhere online but where are Russia's vaunted newer T-90s and similar?

[JasonPratt]

Re the TASS article about modern US tanks standing almost no chance based on supposed data from the Gulf War(s): I haven't bothered to read the article yet, but I have to wonder -- how does the author explain losing the Gulf War so quickly? Twice?? (And the second time losing harder and faster than the first time, with basically only the US gaming for TeamUN?!)

Orc analysis: "AND THAT IS HOW SADDAM WON THE GULF WARS COMRADE!" 


Re giving IFVs to the Uks more than tanks: well, in proportion that should be true anyway. But the Ukrainian raptor-pack tactics REAAALLLY worked out, late last year once they had enough fast moving Hummers etc.


Re the vaunted T-90s: at least 50% lost last I checked. Where 'lost' includes a significant number 'abandoned and captured by Ukraine'.

So a lot of those T-90s are still around but not exactly helping the Russians any!

[Gusington]

Any articles around on T-90's performance? When they're not being captured, I mean 👍

[Pete Dero]

I'm sure it has been discussed upthread and elsewhere online but where are Russia's vaunted newer T-90s and similar?

They will start using them once things no longer go as planned.


I see 3 reasons why they aren't on the battlefield :

- saving them for an even worse period (defense of the motherland)
- to scared for the backlash should even the better equipment end up being destroyed with ease
- they only exist as prototypes

N° 3 looks most likely to me.

[bobarossa]

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-t90m-proryv-main-battle-tank-us-m1-abrams-ukraine-1789143
Article says Oryx has confirmed the Russkies have lost 15 T-90's so far. 

[FarAway Sooner]

Re giving IFVs to the Uks more than tanks: well, in proportion that should be true anyway. But the Ukrainian raptor-pack tactics REAAALLLY worked out, late last year once they had enough fast moving Hummers etc.

There's an excellent article on Tanks vs AFVs and doctrine recently published in Foreign Policy, which generally does first-rate stuff:  https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/20/ukraine-russia-war-tanks-leopard-ifv-infantry-fighting-vehicle-bradley/


You'd expect more IFVs than tanks, but here's how the numbers work out for NATO-produced weapons committed in the last few months (it's amazing nobody keeps a running tally of these).  Obviously, "the ratio" varies depending on what kind of unit we're talking about.  Due to a head start on training times and slightly simpler logistical chains, we should expect to see the Western-made IFVs hitting the lines before the tanks.

Tanks:  14 Leopard 2s (sooner or later), 14 Challenger 2s (sooner or later), 31 Abrams (later), 59 in total w/another ~100 Lep1s and a dozen Lep2s also coming from Holland, Germany, Sweden, and Denmark (much later)

IFVs:  90 Strykers (sooner?), 109 Bradleys (sooner or later), 40 (?) Marders (sooner or later), 35 AMX-10 RCs (sooner or later) 225-285 in total.

Until such time as the heavily mothballed Leopard 1s show up, I guess the Strykers skew those numbers heavy on the IFV front, but this hearkens back to the whole "What is a tank?" sub-thread we had on here for a few pages back in January.  Strykers fit the IFV mold, but, depending on the model, might or might not pack be an apples-to-apples comparison with the Bradleys.

Most of the articles I've read talk about the utility of putting the modern NATO MBTs together with Bradleys in modern combined arms teams, suggesting that the Strykers and the AMX-10s might be farmed out to other Uke units.  I'm not sure where the Marders fit on that front, but I think most of us are guessing about the exact vintage of all the vehicles being delivered when.

[Windigo]

I just wonder where the UAFs will deploy the armour. In my mind they need a breakout situation in a region where they can really put some miles in and disrupt the hell out of logistics and comms.

I think the old adage is that you use infantry and artillery to create and/or find a weakness, and then punch through with armor once you know where that weakness is.  I'm sure that the Abrams and the Lep2s and the Challengers will be more then a match for any individual Russian tanks.  Just like the Panthers and the Tigers were more than a match for the Shermans.

My own suspicion is that a few hundred modern IFVs will likely prove more decisive than a few dozen modern NATO tanks.  IF the Ukes can get the various systems working together well, we'll be much more likely to see a critical mass of combat ability in a place that overwhelms the Russians.  As the Ukrainians proved quite recently, tanks without infantry support get stretched thin VERY quickly.

I am thinking the AFVs are key too, mobility and speed....
I brought up the armour as they have the potential with their superior optics to be critical in any breakthrough and carrying it through in the dark hours. When/if the UAF armour gets deployed.... those poor tanking bastards are going to be meth'd up to go for 72+ hours... the hangover will be epic and ridiculously nasty.

[Windigo]

I see your T-54s and raise you some T-34s.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1638631518720634889

I counted 30.... is that significant in terms of unit size?
I also was going to call BS, but all of the road wheels were nice and clean with snazy white trim on the edges of them. They have been cleaned up and made ready... what a shame to throw classics like these into the grinder.

[GDS_Starfury]

https://realcontextnews.com/offensive-smensive-8-reasons-why-russias-expected-offensive-cannot-succeed/

[Gusington]

^Heh 'offensive-smensive'

[Windigo]

I sense a little bias in that article....

nonetheless I do agree with most of their assertions, not that I am anything but a very bad armchair general with a lot of Ukrainian and Polish friends.