Mikhail Gorbachev has passed away at 91

Started by steve58, August 30, 2022, 04:38:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

steve58

Government is not the solution to our problem—government is the problem.   Ronald Reagan
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.   Thomas Jefferson
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.   George Orwell  The truth is quiet...It's the lies that are loud.   Jesus Revolution
If you ever find yourself in need of a safe space then you're probably going to have to stop calling yourself a social justice warrior. You cannot be a warrior and a pansy at the same time   Mike Adams (RIP Mike)

Gusington



слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

Anguille


Jarhead0331

I honestly thought he'd been dead for decades already. Talk about fading into obscurity.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Gusington

He was marginalized and almost ostracized in Putin's Russia, as you can imagine. Ultimately his own story is a pretty sad one.


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

Pete Dero

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 31, 2022, 06:38:13 AM
I honestly thought he'd been dead for decades already. Talk about fading into obscurity.

He lived long enough to see there is nothing left of his legacy.  Sad.

In today's Russia Stalin is a hero and Gorbachev a traitor.

RIP

FarAway Sooner

There is little left of his legacy in Russia.  He lamented the same thing to a friend only a month ago.  That is tragic indeed.

The legacy he left the rest of the world remains much more intact: 

1) Approximately 150,000,000 people in Eastern Europe and various former Soviet Republics who now enjoy national autonomy and greater personal freedom
2) The (relatively) peaceful dissolution of a nuclear-armed empire
3) Millions of Russian middle-class citizens who tasted freedom and capitalism, if only for a decade or two


al_infierno

A War of a Madman's Making - a text-based war planning and political survival RPG

It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge.  War endures.  As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.  That is the way it was and will be.  That way and not some other way.
- Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian


If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.
- Silent Disapproval Robot


I guess it's sort of nice that the word "tactical" seems to refer to some kind of seriousness during your moments of mental clarity.
- MengJiao

FarAway Sooner

I heard an interesting interview this morning on National Public Radio.  It's unclear who the interviewee was, but she suggested that Gorbachev was an idealistic, Russian Communist leader who was horrified when he finally gained access to the records of Stalin's doings in the 30s and 40s. 

He loved Russia and he loved the Communist party, but he loved his wife even more.  He wanted to remake the Soviet Union into a place where an academic like his wife (a Professor of Philosophy) could thrive, and he realized that meant opening up Soviet history--which meant opening up Stalin's legacy.  That ploy worked in 1990 because Gorbachev, like so many other Russians of his generation, had lived through the realities of Stalin's purges and its aftermath.  He could remember.

Fast-forward 30 years to today, and the Russians who might remember Stalin's brutal excesses and the lessons learned from that are dead.  The new generation never faced, and has largely chosen to ignore, that legacy.  They never learned those lessons.

Putin's Russia is still a far cry from Stalin's Soviet Union, but it seems to be moving steadily in that direction.  The reputations of the two men seem very much aligned in the eyes of their Russian supporters.  I wonder if the new Russians will have to relearn such harsh, cruel lessons before they have a chance to throw off tyranny?

SirAndrewD

As a student of Russian history who has a deep close friend who is one of the leading experts of Russia in the US...I can just say...Russia is complex AF. 

Gorbachev was....very likely, a man who really believed in the Leninist ideal, without the Comintern aspects.  He wanted Russian Socalism in the ideal of Lenin without Lenin's desire to export the revolution.  He despised Stalin's embrace of totalarian ideals and imperialist designs on Eastern Europe.

Putin wasn't something he expected.  As much as we like to call him "Soviet" or like "Stalin" it's so far from the truth and what he is that he was an unexpected result by Gorbachev. 

Putin does not, and has NEVER wanted to restore the Soviet Union.  He wants the Russian Empire.  He wants Ceasropapism, endorsed by the Orthodox Church from the Roman Throne in Moscow.  Gorbachev didn't expect that kind of backlash.  He never imagined a world where that would become the motivating and driving factor of Russia. 
"These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."  - Sgt. Pinback

Gusington



слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

SirAndrewD

Quote from: Gusington on September 02, 2022, 08:45:25 AM
Is Putin religious?

He's actually been extremely coy about answering that question.  I'd wager personally, no, he's not. 

What he is though is a major adherent to the idea that Russia is the "Third Rome", it's something he's mentioned several times.  To that end, he is very tied to the influence, power and authority that the Orthodox church gave to the Russian Empire and the idea that the Tsar was also the Chief of Religion with a subordinate Patriarch.

Religious?  No, but he he understands the power over people Religion provides and its importance to Imperial Russian ideals.
"These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."  - Sgt. Pinback

Gusington

^I thought it would be an answer like that. So he's not 'Soviet' or a communist - does he think that 1917-1991 was a huge mistake? And does he want to reinstate a tsar??


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

JasonPratt

Quote from: SirAndrewD on September 01, 2022, 11:00:53 PM
Putin does not, and has NEVER wanted to restore the Soviet Union.  He wants the Russian Empire.  He wants Ceasropapism, endorsed by the Orthodox Church from the Roman Throne in Moscow.  [...]  [He's] a major adherent to the idea that Russia is the "Third Rome", it's something he's mentioned several times.  To that end, he is very tied to the influence, power and authority that the Orthodox church gave to the Russian Empire and the idea that the Tsar was also the Chief of Religion with a subordinate Patriarch.

Religious?  No, but he he understands the power over people Religion provides and its importance to Imperial Russian ideals.

I've been suggesting something along the same lines in this thread, too. Glad to see some independent confirmation from another one-or-two lines!  O0

This explains why he has gone in for 'national socialism' rather than 'international' (as with the Comintern). But like those other national socialists, he definitely wants to 'anschluss' (so to speak) those Russian-speaking resource regions back under his control. And then go farther: Romania has already been listed on his target board if he could get Odessa and its western final coastline secured!

I guess he's like a Paradox player, working on the map. ;)

Going back to Gorbachev: he could be just as ruthless as any prior Soviet leader, and was so during his early reign. He mellowed out as a marketing strategy for opening up the Soviet Union, once he realized they couldn't win an economic contest initiated by Reagan (and of course he didn't want to ash the planet, and for that reason along with economy rolling tanks to Portugal's coast was out. ;) )

I heard a commenter this week summarize (no doubt over-hastily) his rule as exposing the cracks in Soviet Russia in order to get some cooperative help in spackling them, which almost kind-of worked, except exposing the cracks also exposed them to more wear and tear.

But they did get Pizza Hut out of it!

ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Gusington

Do you have a link to what you mentioned about Romania?


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd