Tragic Air Disaster Involving B-17 and P-63

Started by ArizonaTank, November 12, 2022, 10:34:26 PM

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GDS_Starfury

Im kind of in the camp that thinks they should be grounded at this point.
that could lead to a cottage industry of making full size modern replicas that can fly that would be safer for all involved.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Millipede

An excellent early analysis by a former Thunderbirds commander.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rumZ1jc74f4

One of the things he mentions is that the condition/flight worthiness of both aircraft is unlikely to be a factor.

Redwolf

Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 14, 2022, 08:23:48 PM
Im kind of in the camp that thinks they should be grounded at this point.
that could lead to a cottage industry of making full size modern replicas that can fly that would be safer for all involved.

But the planes or their age had nothing to do with the pilot just losing situational awareness.

GDS_Starfury

no but modern planes would have better built in safety equipment.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Sir Slash

I don't think there'd be a lot of demand to pay to see modern aircraft flying. Unless they're modern fighter-types and who but the military can afford that. Perhaps the vintage models could be upgraded with more modern equipment?
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

ArizonaTank

Quote from: Sir Slash on November 20, 2022, 04:40:10 PM
I don't think there'd be a lot of demand to pay to see modern aircraft flying. Unless they're modern fighter-types and who but the military can afford that. Perhaps the vintage models could be upgraded with more modern equipment?

As Star said, I think it's time to start building / flying more replicas and these can be successful.

I think there are some good examples of successful replica shows.

Granted these are WWI oriented, but that is because there are so few original flying WWI aircraft.

The Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Red Hook, NY for example:
https://oldrhinebeck.org/airshows/

or to some extent the Shuttleworth Collection in the UK.

Also the Omaka Air Show in New Zealand also has many WWI reproductions.

Of course it is easier to build a WWI fighter, but I know that at least one ME-262 has been built as a reproduction.

Still, it would take some stash to build a replica B-17. However, I think once people start doing it, a cottage industry will probably grow up around it; like has happened with WWI aircraft.

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GDS_Starfury

Cali tech billionaires would be all over that stuff.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Sigwolf

Quote from: ArizonaTank on November 20, 2022, 07:45:05 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on November 20, 2022, 04:40:10 PM
I don't think there'd be a lot of demand to pay to see modern aircraft flying. Unless they're modern fighter-types and who but the military can afford that. Perhaps the vintage models could be upgraded with more modern equipment?

As Star said, I think it's time to start building / flying more replicas and these can be successful.

I think there are some good examples of successful replica shows.

Granted these are WWI oriented, but that is because there are so few original flying WWI aircraft.

The Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Red Hook, NY for example:
https://oldrhinebeck.org/airshows/

or to some extent the Shuttleworth Collection in the UK.

Also the Omaka Air Show in New Zealand also has many WWI reproductions.

Of course it is easier to build a WWI fighter, but I know that at least one ME-262 has been built as a reproduction.

Still, it would take some stash to build a replica B-17. However, I think once people start doing it, a cottage industry will probably grow up around it; like has happened with WWI aircraft.
We're not really comparing apples to apples here.  There is not an absence of flyable WW2 aircraft at this point (so no comparison to WW1), and the majority of those that have been recently lost have not been a result of structural failure.  No aircraft ever built, yesterday or today, is made to handle a mid-air collision.  A replica is not going to fix that.  Current safety technology like TCAS and ADS-B is extremely portable at this point, and could be easily retrofitted into a vintage aircraft as easily as it could be used in a replica.  Again, not the problem.  The majority of those with an interest in preserving WW2 aircraft want them in the same state that they existed in history.  There would be huge push-back to implementing digital equipment in the cockpit.  There is not a whole lot of interest in a "WW2" aircraft with a glass cockpit.

Let's also not ignore the fact that mid-airs have also occurred with aircraft that have all the modern toys.  Sometimes bad things happen.  This incident has no evidence that indicates an entire generation of aircraft should be arbitrarily grounded.  Pilot error still exists regardless of technology, and I don't know that the possibility of pilot incapacitation has been ruled out,  There are also thousands of GA aircraft from the same generation that are still in frequent use. 

Something clearly went wrong here, but nothing I've seen to this point is the fault of the airframes involved.

GDS_Starfury

there is a whole host of technology thats on the market today that would make replicas far far safer.
I understand that this could be back fitted into original warbirds but thats not the point of those aircraft.
ya, I could put a current gen Acura engine and suspension into a 2000 but who the fuck does that?
probably a bad analogy.
point being, you put F-35 helmet technology into a replica warbird and these accidents dont happen.
and that gets writ large for all airshows.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Jarhead0331

Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


GDS_Starfury

Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Sigwolf

Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 01, 2022, 05:13:14 PM
so the tower fucked up?
There has been nothing released to indicate that in any way.

GDS_Starfury

not deconflicting two separate flights by altitude seems like a mistake.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Sigwolf

Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 02, 2022, 03:20:05 PM
not deconflicting two separate flights by altitude seems like a mistake.
You seem to be confusing an airshow with normal airport operations.  There is no ATC assigned altitudes nor radar separation during an airshow.  The pilots are briefed (and practice) routines prior to the show, and that includes altitudes and routes of flight.  The NTSB report's use of altitude deconfliction is in reference to what the pilots are supposed to do in the event that they find *themselves* at the wrong altitude during the flight and has nothing to do with the tower.  It states that there was no deconfliction procedures during the briefing or in flight, which is unusual and worthy of note.

There is nothing in the initial NTSB report that indicates anything other than pilot error at this point.  The two aircraft types (fighter and bomber) were assigned separate flight lines (500 ft and 1000 ft from the spectator viewing area).  If the aircraft were where they were supposed to be, they would have been separated by at least 500 feet laterally.  The report makes no mention of the planned altitudes.

Jarhead0331

Would seem more like a pre-planning error as opposed to a tower error. The report talks about pre-flight and in-flight altitude coordination and a lack of it. Would seem that this would have been the responsibility of the air boss or flight coordinator. I wonder if it is typical for air show flights to have flight plans that include altitude deconfliction.

EDIT: ninja'd by Sigwolf
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18