Zimmerman Verdict

[bayonetbrant]

Jon Meacham said something pretty good this morning on Morning Joe:
"We have a pre-existing ideological machinery in the country now into which any details are put in and an automatic reaction comes out... that's the reality of our current public dialogue."


my take is pretty basic:
I have no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman's actions led to Trayvon Martin's death.  The guy had the option to walk away and chose not to.  The guy was asked by the police to stop following him, and he chose not to.  The guy had any number of opportunities to exit the situation and chose not to.  Instead, he provoked a confrontation.  As that confrontation escalated, Trayvon Martin was shot, and Zimmerman pulled the trigger.
That does not make Zimmerman guilty of murder.  He might have actually been guilty of manslaughter, but the defense did their job: they established sufficient reasonable doubt about whether or not Zimmerman was guilty of anything at all.  That's how our system works.  Our system is set up such that we would rather see 20 guilty people go free rather than put 1 innocent man in jail.  This might be one of those 20, or he might be the one.



The truth is, almost none of us here are lawyers.  Moreover, unless someone's been undercover in the crowd here for a while, none of us are criminal attorneys in Florida with an expertise in the nuances of Florida's state laws.  People continue to talk about "stand your ground" laws, which are irrelevant in this case (as stated by many, many Florida law experts).  But the truth is that we lack the expertise to seriously examine the case on its legal merits.  (see my post in the pix-for-a-laugh thread)
People have made this into a racial incident because that suits their personal worldview, but ignores the reality of race in America: it's a blurred line in a lot of places, such as the fact that Zimmerman is mixed white-Latino but called "white" by many people; the President is mixed white-black (and raised by his white mother) but called "black" by many people.

Meanwhile, you get demagogues wading into the debate who try to twist every facet of the case to bolster their pre-existing crusades, such as Bloomberg arguing that it's the result of a "gun culture" propagated by gun-rights extremists in Washington, or Al Sharpton hollering about the state of the justice system in America, because that's what he always yells about.


The best behaved people in the entire affair are Trayvon's parents.  They said all along that they wanted an arrest, and a jury trial and that they would abide by what came out of that.  They have.  And they've called for others to do the same.  If the parents in the case can maintain their calm and dignity in the face of all the hyperbolic rhetoric pinging around the nation right now, why can't the professional protest machine, who are far, far less in tune with the facts of the case than the parents are?

[MikeGER]

BB
i meant duty as a self-imposed duty i had freely chosen and bound only by my word as a  man of honor
... like if i sign up for a closed beta, i feel its my duty to actually test it deep and good.

maybe i am just German ;)

[bayonetbrant]

BB
i meant duty as a self-imposed duty i had freely chosen and bound only by my word as a  man of honor
... like if i sign up for a closed beta, i feel its my duty to actually test it deep and good.

I understand the translation issues.  I'm just making sure that "duty" in this case is clearly distinguished from a legal obligation to do (or not do) something for which there are legal ramifications.

maybe i am just German ;)

I don't think there's a lot of "maybe" in there...  pretty sure your full-on Deutsch ;D

[Gusington]

It's because you're German Mike :)

[Steelgrave]

Jon Meacham said something pretty good this morning on Morning Joe:
"We have a pre-existing ideological machinery in the country now into which any details are put in and an automatic reaction comes out... that's the reality of our current public dialogue."


my take is pretty basic:
I have no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman's actions led to Trayvon Martin's death.  The guy had the option to walk away and chose not to.  The guy was asked by the police to stop following him, and he chose not to.  The guy had any number of opportunities to exit the situation and chose not to.  Instead, he provoked a confrontation.  As that confrontation escalated, Trayvon Martin was shot, and Zimmerman pulled the trigger.
That does not make Zimmerman guilty of murder.  He might have actually been guilty of manslaughter, but the defense did their job: they established sufficient reasonable doubt about whether or not Zimmerman was guilty of anything at all.  That's how our system works.  Our system is set up such that we would rather see 20 guilty people go free rather than put 1 innocent man in jail.  This might be one of those 20, or he might be the one.



The truth is, almost none of us here are lawyers.  Moreover, unless someone's been undercover in the crowd here for a while, none of us are criminal attorneys in Florida with an expertise in the nuances of Florida's state laws.  People continue to talk about "stand your ground" laws, which are irrelevant in this case (as stated by many, many Florida law experts).  But the truth is that we lack the expertise to seriously examine the case on its legal merits.  (see my post in the pix-for-a-laugh thread)
People have made this into a racial incident because that suits their personal worldview, but ignores the reality of race in America: it's a blurred line in a lot of places, such as the fact that Zimmerman is mixed white-Latino but called "white" by many people; the President is mixed white-black (and raised by his white mother) but called "black" by many people.

Meanwhile, you get demagogues wading into the debate who try to twist every facet of the case to bolster their pre-existing crusades, such as Bloomberg arguing that it's the result of a "gun culture" propagated by gun-rights extremists in Washington, or Al Sharpton hollering about the state of the justice system in America, because that's what he always yells about.


The best behaved people in the entire affair are Trayvon's parents.  They said all along that they wanted an arrest, and a jury trial and that they would abide by what came out of that.  They have.  And they've called for others to do the same.  If the parents in the case can maintain their calm and dignity in the face of all the hyperbolic rhetoric pinging around the nation right now, why can't the professional protest machine, who are far, far less in tune with the facts of the case than the parents are?

Good breakdown of the situation, Brant, although I'm not sure I agree that Zimmerman provoked the situation. BUT he certainly could have walked away and prevented the confrontation, and chose not to. That's on him and he has to live with that.

Martins parents have reacted with dignity while going through the hardest times that a parent can know, and I have only sympathy for them. For the rest of us, this entire incident would have either gone unnoticed or been a small blurb in our news were it not for the demagogues, race-baiters, MSNBC, the folks who make a dollar off of sensationalizing a tragedy or use the personal anguish of parents to push their political idealism. If the country burnt over the verdict, these same people and organizations would "tut-tut", then use the footage of riots to further their agenda as well. If there were only some way to take money and political power out of the equation, these people would scurry away like cockroaches and have to figure out a different way to make a living.

[airboy]

I read in the Wall St. Journal today that a civil lawsuit against Zimmerman would be very difficult in Florida because a self-defense plea was upheld in court.  I also read elsewhere that Florida's self-defense laws are almost identical to those in 49 other States (Ohio being the exception).

[Steelgrave]

Zimmerman's attorney is talking about using Florida's Stand Your Ground defense in the event of a civil suit, which, contrary to media and popular opinion, was not used in the trial. According to Zimmerman's attorney, an affirmative SYG ruling would immunize Zimmerman against civil damages. I have no idea of that's true or not, but it sounds like Zimmerman's legal team is ready for the next step.

BTW, there is obviously so much out there about this case, but I found this  http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2013/07/gzng.html
to be an interesting read. Be sure and follow the links to his "20 thoughts" as well.

[Jarhead0331]

Zimmerman had NO legal obligation to just ignore Martin and walk away, or to follow him and attempt to ascertain his intentions.  However, as a good citizen, and as a civic minded community member, he did have an obligation to attempt to protect his neighbors.

The community in Sanford is literally plagued with home invasions and burglaries.  The year of incident alone, Sandford police had received over FOUR HUNDRED calls regarding break-ins, burglaries, etc....that's like more than the comparable statistics from friggin' Compton, CA. Crime is out of control in that neighborhood and community members are sick of being victimized.  I do not fault Zimmerman for trying to investigate Martin's location based upon his suspicious behavior (ie. standing somewhere between homes in the middle of the night in the middle of a rain storm).

So yes, Zimmerman did not HAVE to look for Martin when he lost sight of him, but then again, Martin did not HAVE to break Zimmerman's nose and bash his head repeatedly against concrete, either.  Who is more responsible for the death of Martin under these circumstances?

[GDS_Starfury]

I wuv you JH! 

[LongBlade]

Dershowitz weighs in on the special prosecutor who brought Zimmerman up on charges. For those who don't know, he's not exactly known to be a right winger.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ: Right, it is. She submitted an affidavit that was, if not perjurious, completely misleading. She violated all kinds of rules of the profession, and her conduct bordered on criminal conduct. She, by the way, has a horrible reputation in Florida. She's known for overcharging, she's known for being highly political. And in this case, of course she overcharged. Halfway through the trial she realized she wasn't going to get a second degree murder verdict, so she asked for a compromised verdict, for manslaughter. And then, she went even further and said that she was going to charge him with child abuse and felony murder. That was such a stretch that it goes beyond anything professionally responsible. She was among the most irresponsible prosecutors I've seen in 50 years of litigating cases, and believe me, I've seen good prosecutors, bad prosecutors, but rarely have I seen one as bad as this prosecutor, [Angela] Cory.

Source: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/14/alan_dershowitz_zimmerman_special_prosecutor_angela_corey_should_be_disbarred.html

[Gusington]

I wish more people would frame the case like JH did above.

[Steelgrave]

It's amazing to me that the one juror who is talking says that half the jury was in favor of convicting Zimmerman of second-degree murder the first vote. Given the total lack of evidence against him and how the forensic evidence supported his story, that's scary.

[LongBlade]

I saw more of this case live than I wanted - my dad had it on at his place as entertainment.

The Defense argued that what is missing in the media is what was said immediately after Zimmerman said he was following Martin. The cops said "don't do that." Usually the media cuts it off there. What followed is important. Zimmerman then said "OK (I won't follow). I'll meet you back at 123...wait, he could be listening and I don't want to give my apartment number. I'll meet you at the mailboxes."

(I paraphrased the above but that's the essence)

So Zimmerman then did try to retreat. Four minutes elapsed, during which time Martin jumped Zimmerman. This is important as it showed that, contrary to the media and prosecution's story, Zimmerman *did* break off pursuit.

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

Well it keeps the proles distracted at any rate.  What?  Russian troops on alert after Israel hit a weapons stockpile in Syria?  The US government caught in a string of spying scandals? the executive seizing more and more power? Economic collapse? The government repealing laws that prevented them from propagandizing the domestic populace?  Who cares!?  There's a racially charged trial on the TV!  This is almost as good as a missing white girl or salacious celebrity gossip!

[bayonetbrant]

Who cares!?  There's a racially charged trial on the TV!  This is almost as good as a missing white girl or salacious celebrity gossip!

which is why I get more of mynews from international sources than I did 3-4 years ago.