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Cold Waters

Started by Thomasew, September 28, 2016, 09:55:13 AM

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Sir Slash

Great shots Toonces. It does look tense.  :hide:
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

Toonces

Another bump to this thread to highlight a few updates/mods.

First, Epic Mod is up to 2.33fix3.  I installed it last night and it has some interesting tweaks; of particular note the addition of SAMs to some Russian boats! 

Second, I saw a mod I have not seen previously called DOT Mod.  Current version is a beta 0.2.  I haven't tried this mod yet but it seems they are taking a different approach than Epic, trying for more realism at the expense of fewer playable submarines, and some graphical changes or additions, new surface ships, etc.  To be honest I don't know much more than that, but the feedback seems very positive.

Browsing the Subsim forums, and reading between the lines a bit, I'm getting the impression that the community might be somewhat fracturing between these two mods, kind of like Freefalcon and BMS Falcon.  I hope that's not the case.  Regardless, it's one or the other with these mods, they are not mutually supporting and only one can be used at a time. 

Epic Mod:  https://www.coldhunter.ru/en

Dot Mod:  https://github.com/DotModGroup/ColdWaters-DotMod
(go to "Code" and click "download zip)
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Toonces

I installed DOT Mod (very easy with the automatic installer!) and gave it a try.  Just quickly booted up a Russia 1984 campaign and there's an interesting RPG dynamic.  Your player has both a rank and "prestige points" that restrict what submarine you can choose to start the campaign.  Thus I ended up in a Whiskey class boat, first mission against a Perry frigate.  I had a pretty good fight going until I imploded trying to go beneath 280m depth.  I think this is a pretty neat idea to force players to get out of their comfort zone.  I know Jive Turkey was playing a 1968 Russia campaign in a live stream using DOT Mod but I didn't have that campaign on mine.  I might need to experiment to see how to find that one.

Another interesting dynamic with both Epic and Dot is a "request new boat" and "request retasking" so that the player doesn't appear to have to play the campaign using the same class of sub, and can get a different mission if the assigned mission either doesn't match their class of sub, or they just want to do something else.  Pretty cool.

If you haven't looked at Cold Waters lately you might want to give it a try.  The community is really doing some neat things with modding the sim.  It's definitely not "dead."
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Jarhead0331

I love the idea of this game. In practice, however, i simply cannot wrap my head around how to maneuver, remain undetected and fire a torpedo that has no guidance and still manage to hit a moving target. It is somewhat like golf. I just don't have the patience for it. 
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Toonces

Unguided vs. guided weapons is a whole other beast.  But I get what you're saying.  I play Combat Mission and I have no idea what to do other than rush my troops straight at the enemy, shooting and throwing stuff.  Ground warfare absolutely confounds me.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Jarhead0331

Quote from: Toonces on December 20, 2021, 06:50:47 PM
Unguided vs. guided weapons is a whole other beast.  But I get what you're saying.  I play Combat Mission and I have no idea what to do other than rush my troops straight at the enemy, shooting and throwing stuff.  Ground warfare absolutely confounds me.

Hmmmmmm... This post gives me an interesting idea... I'm going to post about it in a separate thread.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Jarhead0331

Toonces...have you checked out the DotMod for Cold Waters? Came across it in my Youtube feed and it looks awesome.

Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


steve58

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Toonces

Hey just seeing your post, JH.  Yes, I'm actually using Dot Mod right now.  It makes the game considerably more difficult!
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Toonces

So I've been in a sub simming mood lately and have been spending more time with Cold Water (Dot Mod) and SH4 and I have something to say, which is this:

We need more games/sims like Cold Waters.

I really should make a whole new post for this. 

To me, Cold Waters is almost a perfect game.  If I could change it, I'd expand it a bit to the operational level, give the player a bit more fidelity in maneuvering other forces...pretty much something like Seapower is likely to be (provided it allows the player to drill down to player-controlled submarines).

I have had SH3 and 4 for forever, but really haven't spent too much time with them.  But I'm in the mood, and so have been really trying to get into SH4 lately.  Here's the thing: I love the part when I'm in my patrol area and can start hunting bad guys.  I hate, HATE, the transit to the patrol area.  It reminds me of the pterodactyl things in Morrowind; a nuisance that really doesn't add anything to the pleasure of the game.  I'm talking about the incessant air patrols that inevitably detect your submarine on its transit to wherever you're going.  Maybe I'm missing something; maybe this is really important at some point.  I always start at the 1942 campaign, and it's always the same.  Flank at night, submerge and wait during day, rinse repeat....is there no way we can just streamline this nonsense?  The getting from point A to B is not the fun or even interesting part...unless I'm missing something.  A much, much more interesting dynamic would be to put me in control of the submarine fleet, make me SUBPAC, and allow me to direct strategy for the submarine war, and drill into the tactical picture when contact happens!

This is what makes Cold Waters a better sim IMO.  It dispenses with the nonsense, and gets you, the player, into the most interesting part of the game.  You can crank out a few engagements in a night.  Dangerous Waters...it's awesome, but I feel like Cold Waters just distills the details into what you, a commander, would need to know.  When I play it, I feel like I'm making commander-level decisions, not micro-managing every detail of a submarine.  Cold Waters still makes concessions to gameplay, and Dot Mod makes it both "more gamey" and "less gamey" in ways (adding a prestige system=gamey; making sensors/weapons more realistically behaved=less gamey).  But at the end of the day I'm having FUN.  And I get the flavor.  If I could change anything on Cold Waters, it would be more robust environmentals (they're in there, but could be expanded since the environment is crucial to tactical ASW), and friendly forces.  Any combined arms would be welcome. 

I tried the RN campaign, which is prestige-restricted to the Oberon (diesel) SS class, and it's virtually impossible IMO.  A diesel submarine has its roles, even in 1984, but Cold Waters is not set up for that.  A combined arms approach...it might work.  I sure hope Seapower addresses this.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Sir Slash

Very interesting Toonces. I played SH 4 a lot some time back and I also didn't like the transit thing because of what you just said but also because I tended to get distracted by the pretty map and swing-by some little island or harbor for a look and before I knew it, I'd been playing for hours and had seen nothing and done nothing. The game was a huge time sink for me even speeded-up. But what it did, it did very well, the tense minutes of stalking a convoy and the pay-off of my torps hitting home.
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

Skoop

I would agree with you toonces, transiting to patrol areas in sub games can be boring.  The idea of spicing it up with being the subpac commander and directing the campaign then jumping into a sub when contact is made is something I've always wanted in a game.  War on the sea but with a good interface and directed to sub combat.

Silent Disapproval Robot

I downloaded the CBS radio mod from Captain Midnight for SH4.  Makes the transit much more enjoyable as you try to tune in various radio stations and listen to broadcasts from the time.  It can be frustrating during days when you're submerged in order to avoid air patrols as the signal is much weaker so you don't pick up as many transmissions.

The_Admiral

I feel you Toonces (no in the way Gus feels people don't worry  :Dreamer: ) but allow me to disagree on one small point. In my opinion, what you describe doesn't make Cold Waters a better sim. But specifically, and arguably, it makes Cold Waters a better game. Which is absolutely not a bad thing - but not a good thing either - just, well, a thing, as far as design in concerned.

The gaming experience is described IMHO by the ability it has to mix realistic elements with non-realistic ones to optimize user experience by making sure action & decision are left with as little waiting time in-between, if said waiting time adds nothing or little to said experience (which is the case here, considering it's not an horror game or something where moments of calm actually have a large impact on the game's natural, self-evolving narrative).

The sim experience on the other hand, is all about making sure that as much of the real elements get in despite the limitations of computer. As such, when Silent Hunter 1 came out, it was clearly a better sim than Silent Service II, yet it wasn't necessarily a better game.

The "game" part is all about accommodating realism so that gameplay comes first. The "sim" part is all about accommodating the limits of the medium so that realism comes first. Different goals. And some games hold one or the other more or less as the core of their design. We as an audience can stand somewhere in the middle, and I for one enjoy both, but within the realm of their own rules. Same issues will apply to our game, and that's why we're doing our best to offer options in regard of time acceleration efficiency & software optim/stability, precisely because we don't want realism to stand in the way of fun whenever a choice can be made by player agency.

Toonces

^ Well said.  I should have been clearer on the distinction between sim and game.

Ultimately, what I'm advocating for is more "game" and less "sim" in more games.  Simulation has its place - to a point.  Past that point it adds (to me) baggage I have to wade through to get to the good parts. 

There is a balance. 

I don't know if you can even reasonably call Cold Waters a sim.  But it's a great game, with just enough sim elements to make it serious. 

These are, of course, very personal tastes. 
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs