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Back in the water!

Started by MarkShot, August 23, 2012, 02:46:09 PM

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MarkShot

I strive for interesting thread titles.  You might think that my relocation to Taiwan is done, and I am playing games again.  Wrong.

I meant it literaly.  I read Tom Clancy's "Read Storm Rising".  It rekindled (no pun; although my wife does have a Kindle) my interest in all things naval.

I did install HCCE (Harpoon), H363 (Harpoon), and RSR on my laptop.  But for now, I still have my desktop and have restored SC stock and SCXIIc/SCU (Sub Command), and DW stock and DW/LWAMI (Dangerous Waters).  I even considered playing some AOD[DOS] (Aces of the Deep) and SHCE (Silent Hunter 1).

Well, mainly I've been playing DW/LWAMI.  I bought it, but never really played, but instead played SCXIIc/SCU while waiting for patches/mods.

At the moment, I am having fun with it.  There are definitely some notable improvements over SC.  Two that immediately come to mind (other than more playable platforms) is active intercept crewman.  Having to manually mark contacts in SC was a pain.  The replay viewer now has a "skip to" feature.  Watching a 6 hour SC replay at 16X took too much patience.

There are some really run and interesting things about these games.  FOW in many wargames is almost something added after the fact.  In Sub games (WWII and modern), FOW is given underpinning the whole experience.  The aspect of stealithy hunting and then attempting to get away alive is always exhilarating.

One thing which I have always found fascinating in SC/DW is the whole issue of situational awareness.  Much of what you will want to do will be done at the TMA (target motion analysis) Station.  For the uninitiated, this involves taking multiple sensor bearings of a contact over time and deducing the course, range, and speed.  (all important aspects in an engagement)  You will be solving a system of simultaneous equations graphically along with possible other hints.

This gets really challenging when the target is uncooperative and will not maintain a constant course and speed.  I "lead LOS" (both your sub and the target are moving in the same direction) all of the following immediately looks the same based on simply observing SONAR lines of bearing:  target slows, target turns left, and target turns right.  Why?  Well, all decrease the target's speed relative to you by compressing the lines of bearing.

Of course, it gets even more interesting, once everyone starts shooting.  The SONAR display becomes a mess, TMA becomes very confusing, and finally your SONAR may simply wash out as you decide to run for your life!

My major issue with SC/DW has been the complexity of the scenario editor.  It is so complex that missions often have logic bugs or you just cannot figure out how to win them.  Compared to AOD and SHCE, your goals are simple; sink tonnage and escape/evade.

For example, I have been playing DW's Kilo Demo Mission.  The goal is to sink and escort cargo ship.  However, the escort and cargo ship has been created as a group with the escort being the lead.  So, if the escort detects your sub and prosecutes it, the cargo ship will follow it into the attack.  One would expect the cargo ship to remain on course or attempt to open the distance while the escort protects it.  Another interesting aspect of this formulation is if you kill the cargo ship without being detected, the escort will sail merrily along as opposed to begin an area search.  (Now, more reasonable behaviors are certainly possible, but additional scenario coding is required.)  So, this is my main criticism with the SC/DW system, its complexity makes for some great possibilities and equally great disappointments.  Hard coded ship behavior found in AOD and SHCE simply works ... it's believable and makes sense.

Dive, dive, dive !!!

Oche

I agree, Subsims can be exhilarating. I wish i had the patience to go thru SHCE again with the realism mod that was around for a long time. That one i played a lot. The one thing i do miss the most about SH1 is the well done TDC. I also have Destroyer Command with the fletcher mod installed and i fire it up every now and then. A few months ago i even installed Subsim's "Pacific Aces Mod" for SHII, but the Laser guided depth charges issue inherited by the SHII engine i almost forgot about, though i remember hacking the Config file to reduce depth charge accuracy (it worked, the destroyers would launch the DCs but explosion depth was always random).

i Still have Sub Command but never got around it too well.

In the meantime i always have installed both SHIII with GWX 3.0 mod and SHIV.

Staggerwing

Quote from: Oche on August 23, 2012, 05:09:13 PM
I also have Destroyer Command with the fletcher mod installed and i fire it up every now and then.

Tell me more! All I can find is a Fletcher mod for SH2 itself, not DC.
Vituð ér enn - eða hvat?  -Voluspa

Nothing really rocks and nothing really rolls and nothing's ever worth the cost...

"Don't you look at me that way..." -the Abyss
 
'When searching for a meaningful embrace, sometimes my self respect took second place' -Iggy Pop, Cry for Love

... this will go down on your permanent record... -the Violent Femmes, 'Kiss Off'-

"I'm not just anyone, I'm not just anyone-
I got my time machine, got my 'electronic dream!"
-Sonic Reducer, -Dead Boys

Oche


Staggerwing

Thanks! There's something to be said for a surface sim that lets you see the surroundings. I have fond memories of the game Operation Spruance and the effort it took to dock the DD in Bahrain (or where ever it was). No doubt it was just a bunch of 16 color polygons but it gave a sense of immersion.
Vituð ér enn - eða hvat?  -Voluspa

Nothing really rocks and nothing really rolls and nothing's ever worth the cost...

"Don't you look at me that way..." -the Abyss
 
'When searching for a meaningful embrace, sometimes my self respect took second place' -Iggy Pop, Cry for Love

... this will go down on your permanent record... -the Violent Femmes, 'Kiss Off'-

"I'm not just anyone, I'm not just anyone-
I got my time machine, got my 'electronic dream!"
-Sonic Reducer, -Dead Boys

MIGMaster

I love modern naval combat sims - I don't like age of sail type stuff - I prefer Harpoon missiles and Akula's. I was really hoping to see some more activity on the NWAC front. I've put hours and hours into the various versions of Harpoon, but its lost its lustre for me  - Janes Fleet Command with the massive mods done by Chris and the others at Naval Warfare Simulations was just the cat's ass except for the CTD bug they couldn't remedy. I use to like flying Cobras in on smaller vessels and open up with rockets - it was just magic!  ;)

MarkShot

SH2/PA mod was pure genious ... How they built a random campaign out of a linear system.

However, there was no resolving any engine bugs. The biggest was that escorts in a saved patrol would no longer engage you if the save game was loaded.

Oche

Quote from: MarkShot on August 23, 2012, 09:04:00 PM
SH2/PA mod was pure genious ... How they built a random campaign out of a linear system.

However, there was no resolving any engine bugs. The biggest was that escorts in a saved patrol would no longer engage you if the save game was loaded.

Yes, i don't know how they managed to make it random but that was major plus, SH2 ACES and PA mods really made it worthwhile the wait for SHIII.

Toonces

#8
.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Nefaro

Quote from: MarkShot on August 23, 2012, 02:46:09 PM


My major issue with SC/DW has been the complexity of the scenario editor.  It is so complex that missions often have logic bugs or you just cannot figure out how to win them.  Compared to AOD and SHCE, your goals are simple; sink tonnage and escape/evade.



One excellent thing about the scenario editor in SC & DW is the canned script options that you can mix & match to achieve what you want without a bunch of work. 


While the title in many of these dropdown script selections is pretty self-explanatory, not all are that way and you need some tips.  I used to have a text doc with descriptiosn for many but alas, it's long gone.   :-[

MarkShot

Yep, I used a script and a trigger yesterday to set my Kilo's battery to start at 10% charge.

MarkShot

Mike,

You ever make port in Keelung or Kaosheung?

Toonces

No, I've never been to Taiwan.  We did fly into Hong Kong once, stayed on deck for about 6 hours and then flew right back out, but that's as close to where you are as I've been.  Well, I did 3 months in Okinawa, too.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread with hurricane stuff.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

MarkShot

HK is one hour from Taiwan by commercial air.

Well, shoot me an email if you ever on leave in Taiwan.

MarkShot

I just thought of another thing that makes sub sims quite unique.  In flights sims, tank sims, and FPS, death is pretty much instantaneous.

Death in a subsim is a much more protracted affair (more like torture actually).

In WWII subsims it can take hours to die as you repeatedly sprint and go silent while they depth charge you as your battery runs down.  Or as minor damage slowly floods your compartments and drags you down below crush depth.

In SC/DW, death can still take a good 15 minutes from the time you are effectively dead until you are actually dead.  Given that your top of the line fast attack sub can run for its life at 35-40KTS and the fish with your name on it can make 50-55KTS ... that leaves you plenty of time to run, turn, drop counter measures ... until that convergent pinging starts and shrinks down to the singularity of your death.