What military history has surprised you

Started by Con, February 16, 2022, 11:30:36 AM

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Con

I wanted to post this a while back. I think most people here are avid historians of military history and if you are like me probably think you make a pretty good historian. However I still find myself being surprised by a major aspect of a battle or conflict. It's very humbling but in a good way.

My question to you is what major fact have you recently learned that really surprised you or challenged your assumptions.

My example was reading about the battles of Manila. I really had no idea how fierce it was until I read Ian Tolls magnus opus Twilight of the Gods. It shocked me I had so little knowledge of an urban battle so bloody and brutal that it's called the Stalingrad of the pacific.
A good write up is below for those who don't have access to the book.
https://thediplomat.com/2021/02/remembering-the-battle-of-manila-76-years-later/

ArizonaTank

#1
Being surprised by some aspect of military history is a constant state of affairs for me. That is a good thing in my book.

Recently, I found a very good single volume book about the French air forces in WWI. The book is "Kings of the Air," by Ian Sumner.

https://www.amazon.com/Kings-Air-French-Airmen-Great/dp/1783463384/ref=sr_1_4?crid=18YU4HD81GYP5&keywords=kings+of+the+air&qid=1645031906&sprefix=kings+of+the+air%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-4

This is an area where English language books about WWI aerial warfare usually concentrate on Germany, Britain and then the US in that order. France and its exploits are often an afterthought. I even read a book about 1918 airpower recently that barely mentioned the French; this was "Aces Falling" by Peter Hart. "Aces Falling" was an otherwise good book, but you would barely know the French were fighting at all from reading it.

But the reality is that there is a good argument that the French did more of the air fighting than any other Allied nation. Also the French had spurts where they achieved technological and even combat superiority. There were times such as during Verdun where the French almost swept the Germans from the sky. At one point, the French even had a dirigible program that was stronger than the Germans (but the French abandoned it due to heavy losses).

There are many folks who think the Spad 13 was the best fighter of the war.
Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

Uberhaus

MMP has a historical ASL module for Manila going through the preorder stage.  https://mmpgamers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_6&products_id=182


As for a holy .... military history moment, that would be learning that the Cheshire Regiment, a Territorial Unit had fought and beaten LSSAH at Wormhoudt during the defence of Dunkirk.  This is quite a feat for reservists as the motherfuckers of 1SS have the best combat record of the Second World War. 
The Cheshire Regiment did produce 'Todger' Jones, VC, in the First World War, so maybe it shouldn't be so surprising.  It is also a matter of personal pride as my grandfather was there, in the regiment's rear guard.

The massacre afterwards of British prisoners is less of a surprise.

FarAway Sooner

 Great topic in the OP, Con!   :bd:

I lived in Manila for 18 months in the mid 90s, staying in the house of an American-born widow of a Filipino attorney who had spent the last 57 years of her life living in the Philippines.  She was there (and white-skinned) during the Japanese conquest of Manila and the liberation of surrounding territories.  Her house and compound (where they were already living) were one of the few structures for a mile in any direction that survived the fires.  Tita Jessie never went into any details on that and I didn't think it appropriate to pry, but I suspect that the house being located on the Pasig River must have been one factor.

She and her in-laws only spoken infrequently of that time period, but when they did, it was with a sense of solemnity and gravity I can only imagine.  It was one of the most brutal and harrowing tales of WW II.  It was every bit in a league with the Rape of Nanking, and also gave an indication to anybody who doubted that the behavior of much of the Japanese Army in WW II was profoundly vile.

In terms of what surprised me the most, I was amazed to learn that, at the Battle of Midway, the Americans had 100+ planes more than the Japanese.  I knew about some of the aged fighters that took off from Midway to get slaughtered along the way, but I had always believed that the Americans were outnumbered there.  Far from it.  I also didn't realize that the Japanese had sent a landing force that was outnumbered by the defenders on Midway by a ratio of 1-to-2, and that the Japanese had no historical experience and hardly any doctrine at all for conducting an opposed amphibious landing.

jamesharp2233

#4
Quote from: Uberhaus on February 16, 2022, 05:39:55 PM
MMP has a historical ASL module for Manila going through the preorder stage. 

As for a holy .... military history moment, that would be learning that the Cheshire Regiment, a Territorial Unit had fought and beaten LSSAH at Wormhoudt during the defence of Dunkirk.  This is quite a feat for reservists as the motherfuckers of 1SS have the best combat record of the Second World War. 
The Cheshire Regiment did produce 'Todger' Jones, VC, in the First World War, so maybe it shouldn't be so surprising.  It is also a matter of personal pride as my grandfather was there, in the regiment's rear guard.

The theme of the historical war should surprise everyone for no reason. In fact, the war is already a huge surprise. It shouldn't exist at all. I am very fond of history and do not like when I am asked to write about something at the same time at the university. For example, a week ago I was asked to write about black lives matter, I used https://studymoose.com/free-essays/black-lives-matter for this. Yes, of course the topic is very important. But I don't like it, I'd rather write about historical events. At least it will be interesting for me. History is an amazing subject.


Yes I agree with you
I have been working for an IT company for over 7 years. I am a front end developer and I love what I do. I also try to travel when I have time.

nelmsm

Finding out about the charge of the 1st Minnesota at Gettysburg shocked me. How does the 20th Maine get all the glory when what the 1st Minnesota did was even more remarkable.

Sir Slash

Very true. I was shocked to learn standing on that very ground, what the 1st. Minnesota did there. But there were lots of Heros at Gettysburg. More than enough to go around.  :notworthy:
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

jamesharp2233

Quote from: FarAway Sooner on March 25, 2022, 10:54:48 AM
Great topic in the OP, Con!   :bd:

I lived in Manila for 18 months in the mid 90s, staying in the house of an American-born widow of a Filipino attorney who had spent the last 57 years of her life living in the Philippines.  She was there (and white-skinned) during the Japanese conquest of Manila and the liberation of surrounding territories.  Her house and compound (where they were already living) were one of the few structures for a mile in any direction that survived the fires.  Tita Jessie never went into any details on that and I didn't think it appropriate to pry, but I suspect that the house being located on the Pasig River must have been one factor.

She and her in-laws only spoken infrequently of that time period, but when they did, it was with a sense of solemnity and gravity I can only imagine.  It was one of the most brutal and harrowing tales of WW II.  It was every bit in a league with the Rape of Nanking, and also gave an indication to anybody who doubted that the behavior of much of the Japanese Army in WW II was profoundly vile.

In terms of what surprised me the most, I was amazed to learn that, at the Battle of Midway, the Americans had 100+ planes more than the Japanese.  I knew about some of the aged fighters that took off from Midway to get slaughtered along the way, but I had always believed that the Americans were outnumbered there.  Far from it.  I also didn't realize that the Japanese had sent a landing force that was outnumbered by the defenders on Midway by a ratio of 1-to-2, and that the Japanese had no historical experience and hardly any doctrine at all for conducting an opposed amphibious landing.
ohhhh
I have been working for an IT company for over 7 years. I am a front end developer and I love what I do. I also try to travel when I have time.

Silent Disapproval Robot

I'm listening to the audiobook version of Big Week by James Holland.  Part of the book explains the need for a long range fighter to escort bombers to Germany.  They then explain all the steps that led to the P-51B and on to the D.  What I wasn't aware of was that the Spitfire was capable of making it to Berlin and back with the addition of droptanks, that the Brits were aware of it but chose not to pursue it as they mainly bombed at night when fighter escort wasn't as useful and that RAF Fighter Command was notoriously stingy when it came to giving up their top of the line fighters to anything but the defense of the UK.  Nearly every other book I've read talks about how the Spit was hampered by its short range.