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After Action Reports => Digital Gaming AARs => Topic started by: Barthheart on March 20, 2017, 06:25:53 PM

Title: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 20, 2017, 06:25:53 PM
Prologue

Well, we're at it again due to overwhelming peer pressure. This time around Jason will be driving the panzers while I will try to use all the Allied toys and grit and luck to stop him. :bd:

We're going to try and play the campaign game but just the Poland and France scenarios. So Jason wants to do well in Poland so he gets some more toys in France and I need to do well to hobble him enough in France to be ale to pull out a win.

Doing well in Poland is harder for the Germans, but I need to really make him pay to get the most benefit in France. I have a few tricks up my sleeves that I won't go into yet in case he's reading this.

The struggle will begin in earnest tomorrow night when I open Jason's file to see what he managed in the first actions. I hope we can keep you all entertained.  :)
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on March 20, 2017, 06:37:51 PM
My AAR thread is temporarily open at the moment, too, btw: no spoilers there yet.  O:-)

Adding this thread to my sig.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Crossroads on March 21, 2017, 12:48:47 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 20, 2017, 06:25:53 PM
Prologue
So Jason wants to do well in Poland so he gets some more toys in France and I need to do well to hobble him enough in France to be ale to pull out a win.

Subscription in for this thread as well  :)
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on March 21, 2017, 02:14:15 PM
Strictly speaking, if Barth delays me sufficiently there will be no war in France; and if there is, I'm going to get the toys anyway. What I won't get is a full recharge of my losses if I take more than 10% casualties. Any losses above that will reduce my replenish by proportion. (Roughly speaking for example, if I suffer 11% casualties, I'll only replenish back up to 99% strength.)

Any political points I manage to spare / gain in Poland, I can spend on France, but I'm not sure what I can spend them on. Without historical variants, there aren't many valid pre-scenario cards to buy. (The engine allows me to waste points on them anyway, but to no purpose. There are two valid choices pre-Poland which I'll explain in the AAR.) Once I'm into the operation, I can buy another infantry division every once in a while as I gang up points. Is that it? ...maybe? From a campaign perspective, the goal is to save up enough polipoints to help with the end-game invasion of Britain -- which we aren't planning to do.

Unlike more PanzerGeneral-ish games, I can't spend points during a mission to replenish troops, much less upgrade kit; I don't think I can upgrade kit (much less buy extra units) between scenarios later.

I mean, sure, I'll buy a few more infantry divisions as I get them, but I'm wondering if I should do that now in Poland so they can get some experience maybe -- but that only makes sense if they carry over into France. Otherwise extra divs only make sense to tip a balance in case I'm risking losing Weiss.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Sir Slash on March 21, 2017, 02:43:24 PM
Sounds good Jason. Best I can remember from playing against the AI, getting to Warsaw is the key...duh. It has many more Vic. points than any other Polish city and is their source of supply. It wasn't too hard to get there but unless you can cut it off from the east and isolate the units supply there, it becomes a slug-fest for the city which will cost you plenty. The Polish Airforce-- no problem. The Polish weather-- BIG problem. Rain just killed me in this scenario. That I remember well.  :pullhair:
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 06:41:58 PM
Kinda disheartening when you all are planning my demise in my onw thread.....  >:(  :knuppel2:

Anyway time to get this show on the road so no more reading Jason.  ;)

Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 06:43:46 PM
September 1, 1939

The Germans come streaming over the boarder. And pass along a message to the first post boy they meat....

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(click to embiggen)

Not sure he really wants to lead with HQs but who am I to argue with the him....  ???
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 06:47:34 PM
Next up we get a message the ordinary citizen are flocking to the help save the nation.

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If only they'd flock in more useful places than behind enemy lines and out of supply.  :crazy2:

These are great messages to get though.. free troop, even if they are speed bumps. I'll take all I can get.
<:-)
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 06:51:33 PM
And then we come to what we are all fighting for... VPs!  \m/

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Now, Jason doesn't need to take Warsaw to win but he'd have to take pretty much every other VP location instead which can take a lot of time, of which he only has 14 turns, each turn is 2 days
All the other red dot cities in Poland are worth 1 VP. There are VP's outside of Poland that I can try and take which will reduce Jason's total... but it's stretch for me to get to them... mostly... ;)

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 07:25:32 PM
GHQ does have some command cards to play but I think I'll hold these for a bit. The Supply Depot one comes in very handy if a large pocket forms and needs to hold out.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 07:36:36 PM
Northern Sector

Now to my actions for the first turn... mostly running away. But I can't run too far too fast because I need to slow the German advance and make him pay with casualties as a penalty for the next scenario.

So to that end I withdraw in a few places, yellow lines, and advance in a few others, brown lines, and hold and dig in in others, orange lines.

There are a few spoiling moves that I like the Poles to try to keep the Germans on their toes. For example at location 1, these bridges connect the German rail net to the East Prussian net. If I can destroy them and keep them out of German hands, they can't use strategic movement in East Prussia and thus can slow them down.

Also, at points 2 and 3, I'm using cavalry units to try and cut the German supply lines. This game is all about supply lines. If you get cut off your ability to fight degrades making it harder to fight. They again will slow their advance. I'm trading a few unit for time. Jason's hard lunge at point 2 makes him vulnerable to being cut off. He'll have to keep at least one unit back to keep his line open and maybe chase down the cavalry. Again at point 3, he can over extend trying for the "cheap" points at the back of the battle. So some more cavalry to keep him busy.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 07:46:04 PM
Middle Sector

Here it's mostly about getting behind rivers and blowing bridges, which went well except for one bridge.... next turn. The Germans need to get their engineer units next to a blown bridge to fix it. Engineer units can also move fast which makes some people use them for recon ahead of the main force as well as bridge repair. So whenever I see an engineer unit out front and lightly guarded I'll make every effort to attack it hard. Fewer engineers mean fewer repaired bridges which mean slower advances.

I also need to get unit around Warsaw and Lodz, large VP locations. The sooner they stop moving in a good defensive location the sooner they build up their entrenchment values making it harder to dislodge them in a fight.

Poznan, on the far left, can usually hold out pretty well but one needs to make sure they don't get pocketed. It's worth 2 VPs but the troops are better used to defend Warsaw. Sometimes you get caught here though so then you need to make the Germans pay heavily to try and keep you pocketed.... supply card is handy here if required.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 07:52:53 PM
Southern Sector

Here the main focus is to protect Krakau, 5 Vps, and not let the Germans make an end run around the Middle. So more units moving into blocking positions and getting behind rivers.

Points 4,5, and 6 (proper comma usage  O0) are more spoiler advances trying to cut supplies or at least draw off front line troops. In the south east, the Slovacs and the few Germans down there are especially vulnerable to being cut off because they are already at the extreme end of the supply line.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 07:54:42 PM
And finally an overview of the whole theatre at the end of Sept. 2.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Crossroads on March 28, 2017, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 07:52:53 PM

Points 4,5, and 6

:bd:

Will be interesting to see how the first turns will evolve, and which card you'll finally opt to play.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 28, 2017, 08:31:43 AM
Quote from: Crossroads on March 28, 2017, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on March 27, 2017, 07:52:53 PM

Points 4,5, and 6

:bd:

Will be interesting to see how the first turns will evolve, and which card you'll finally opt to play.

I agree. The first few turns will set the tone for the game I think. It will be interesting to see if he takes the bait....  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 29, 2017, 07:54:32 PM
Second turn complete and returned to JP.... interesting stuff happening....  ^-^
Just too burned out to type it up right now, I forgot how brain draining the game can be playing against a human...  :nerd:
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 06:26:54 PM
Sorry for the delay.

September 3, 1939

German taunt this turn.... I think maybe he wanted to do that sooner... but we'll see.....

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 06:28:41 PM
Some people take up arms. This time in more useful locations.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 06:31:50 PM
Start of turn 2 and he's managed to get 2 more VPs... need to keep this slow pace of loss. Also his troop loss percent is creeping up at a good rate. 1% per turn will put him over the top by the turn 11.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 06:34:30 PM
While taking a drive in the German back field a unit comes upon and airbase full of planes and promptly attacks!

This screen says they all retreated...

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But this ones says they all got destroyed.. I believe this one.  :knuppel2:

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 06:45:03 PM
Ok Northern Front report.

More bridges blown and more units move into blocking positions.

Yellow, orange and purple arrows show lines of advance to cause trouble. Elbing is definitely possible, while Konigsberg is a bit of t stretch but anything to pull him out of the advance.

Locations 1 and 2 are where I was able to attack and damage a couple of HQs he advanced too far forward. If he keeps that up I'll really slow his advance by knocking down his command bonuses.

Grey circle shows a pocket full of Germans. These guys will not have received any supply at the start of next turn. And since supply is only calculated at the start of the turn, even if he breaks out if I can close the loop again they will still be out of supply and start to feel the effects of low supply on turn 4.

Oddly, at the brown arrow, he sung this division North instead of South...  ??? Not that I'm complaining as it's going the wrong way....

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 06:48:36 PM
Central Front.

Not a lot of action here on our part, falling back, protecting Lodz, blowing some bridges.

Oh yeah and my Winged Hussars driving on Frankfurt!  :D

He's across the river near the bottom of the picture but has no operational bridges there.. yet so low supplies crossing.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 07:04:23 PM
Southern Front

This is where I think my spoiling maneuvers are going to have the largest effect.

See that HQ at Location 3? Well that's the Army HQ for all the units in the purple circle. This is important because of the way that supply gets delivered in this game.
Supply starts at his upper most HQ, which is a unit called OKH in Frankfurt by the way  ;), and flows to the ArmyGroup HQ, then down to the Army HQs then to the Corps HQs and finally to the combat units. In that entire path there are only 250 movement points for the supplies to use to reach the farthest unit. Now roads and railroads costs supplies only 1 MP so you really want to have your HQ located on them so they don't use up many MPs. Now take a look at where the 14th Army HQ is located....cutoff rom roads and rails, trapped behind rivers and dense terrain. All these use up those precious MPs just to get to that HQ. Then the supplies have to travel back out and get to the Corps HQ and then to the divisions.

What I have here in the purple circle is essentially one big pocket. Easy for him to reconnect but just as easy, so far, for me to remake. This should really slow down the Southern advance.

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 07:07:32 PM
For those who like stats here are the losses for my army and his. I've lost only twice and many as he has. Again, if I can keep this up, the Germans will go into France with reduced forces.  :bd:

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 07:09:22 PM
And finally an over view of the entire campaign. Only 2 turns in but I'm feeling good... so far....

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Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 11, 2017, 07:10:26 PM
I'm playing turn 3 tomorrow night. My wife is out of town for a couple of weeks so updates should be faster.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Crossroads on April 12, 2017, 09:02:53 AM
And so it begins! Encirclements and Supply will be something I am especially following with great interest, ditto your Partisan Hussars living off the land  :bd:

Your defence behind the rivers from Lodz to Krakau looks formidable, not much reserves around Lodz though...
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on April 12, 2017, 09:04:51 AM
Yeah, Lodz is pretty thin right now.

If any Germans get across the river in front of there the whole river line is to fall back and surround Lodz... as best they can.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on May 15, 2017, 10:59:56 AM
Hmmm... seems to be lots of traffic in Jason's thread... maybe I should catch p with my AAR...  :P
Jason sent me turn 4 last week while I was out of town. Going to play the turn tonight and then get the AAR going again...

It's killing me to not read his stuff.... especially with all the work he seems to be putting into it.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Sir Slash on May 15, 2017, 09:46:51 PM
It mostly goes like this, "Doom, doom, doom". You'll see what I mean after the dust settles.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on May 28, 2017, 07:26:31 PM
Sorry all. Once again my ambitions are greater than my will to overcome my laziness. There won't be very many updates here, but I will keep playing the game as Jason is a fun opponent.

I might post something on occasion if there's something really interesting but mostly you'll get more by watching Jason's thread.

Turn 4 sent with a small surprise for JP... I pulled back from the river I front of Lodz. He's already breached it to the south so better to use the troops to protect Lodz and get ready for the fall back to Warsaw.

I'm hoping the the Noth and South fronts have delayed him enough to keep him from winning but it's still going to be a close thing.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on June 04, 2017, 12:36:31 PM
Turn 5 back to JP.

Highlights include mauling some of his units up north, mauling the XV Corps HQ in the center, consolidating the defences around Krakow.

He seems to be wasting time picking off units when he should be driving hard. Also seems to be Warsaw focused.... he needs to take Krakow as well or he won't get enough points. I don't see enough of units down there to take it, but I can't see all his stuff either.... ???

Up north I've caused enough trouble that he seems to be sending new stuff up there.... good... good... Just about time to withdraw behind the northern rivers and make him come to me again.....  >:D


Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Sir Slash on June 05, 2017, 10:33:40 AM
You Poles don't fight fair. You're supposed to just.....lose. What does Poland do with their little airforce in this one? Anything? Or just let it hang-out and play defense?
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on June 05, 2017, 10:45:24 AM
Mostly the Polish Airforce tries not to get noticed. But every once and a while I'll use them to lay a smack down on an HQ that presents itself. It's not much and depending on where it is, can go badly for the Poles....  :(
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on July 01, 2017, 07:54:06 AM
Turn 6 returned finally.

More destruction up North. More scrambling in the Center. More... sitting in the South....
I did make Krackow a major supply dump so now it doesn't matter if he cuts it off from Warsaw.  ;)

Surrounded the 4th Panzer Div... but that won't last long.

Slowly pulling back for final defence of Warsaw. That and Krackow are where the game will be won or lost.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on July 23, 2017, 08:12:40 AM
Turn 7 finally in. Man summer is a bad time for this kind of thing...  :P

Started pulling back in the North. I've caused enough damage and delay up there. I now need to rush all the units back towards Warsaw for the final few turns of the siege.

One of my commanders in the center, in charge of the Lwow defense, keeps ordering all his troops to do nothing!  :pullhair: Means I can't move or fight with them.  :tickedoff:

Just south of there my center is collapsing a little too fast.... I can't let him swing around and get behind Warsaw or I'm cooked.

Large pocket created just outside of Poznan... I'll lose all those troops.... I wonder if he'll just ignore them or waste time and try to destroy them.... ???

He's still not really pushing towards Krackow.... very curious.... ???

Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on September 05, 2017, 08:32:46 PM
Turns 8, 9 and 10 complete.

He's trying to end run around me and get at the cheap points in the back. If he can do that, he doesn't need to take Warsaw, but still needs to take Krakow. Krakow seems likely to fall though, he's got more there than I thought originally.
Still...it should take two more turns at least... I hope.... :P

With only 4 turns left I'm confident he can't take Warsaw. So now it's speed bump time.... throw as many units as I can in front of his tanks to slow them down! Not very glamourous but here you go.  \m/

Gonna be a close one.....
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Sir Slash on September 05, 2017, 09:30:08 PM
That's the kind I like.  :clap:
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on December 03, 2017, 08:16:32 AM
Turn 11 complete.

He's making better headway than I'd hoped but he still has a long way to go. Also I stole a VP location back... at least for now.

Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 06, 2017, 10:06:41 PM
If anyone passing through is wondering why I'm in his thread reading around -- take a guess...  >:D :2funny:   :-"  :peace:
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2017, 11:33:11 AM
Okay, some post-battle analysis, specifically on why and how I lost.

-2.) No, I didn't let the Poles win.

-1.) Yes, this was my first time playing the game, against a veteran of it, but I've played a version of this system before and I've played strategy games for almost 40 years.

These are not reasons for my loss, but they have topical application, thus their negative designation.

0.) The campaign designer(s?) chose to put the famous 19th Corps with all its famous power and leaders (Rommel, Guderian, etc.), totally out of position. Even Falkenwrath (or whatever his name was, in my headcanon it's this so there  :P ) was largely out of position -- and he was the most competent corps remaining in East Prussia! In their place were a weak reservist division (treated like a corps, Brandt's Gruppe); and a weak corps made of two weak reservist divisions (Wodrig's). Plus some scattered auxiliaries attached to the army HQ, like a sizeable but still reservist garrison division that would take me several turns to a-historically move out of place to try to make up for problems.

I'm counting this as a neutral reason because I could have still won had I played them better. But this adjustment, for game balance I suppose, left me unable to even mount the famous 40:1 attack on Wisna which the Poles famously defended against for a turn and a half. ;) A strong flanking attack from the north makes sense. A weak-ass presentation attack from the north does not. Against an opponent like Barth, these leftovers would have been barely able to mount a defense against a significant push into East Prussia by the Poles, threatening a northern loop-around to cut off supplies to the main thrust (from the northwest). Which not-incidentally is what Barth tried, which leads to the main reason I lost...


1.) ...Barth isn't the Poles.

It isn't just that Barth outplayed me; he played the Poles smart. That means probing forward to screw with my lines of supply, and not even only where I overreached (like with Wodrig's corps) or zigged instead of zagging (like near Zakopane.) He actually ran a cavalry unit behind my lines on the first couple of turns to take one of my cities! -- which left me bewildered in accounting for my score by 1 point for a while (even though I quickly ousted him) because I thought he had started with that city.

Aside from paralyzing my weak-ass northeastern sector's thrust, and my considerably-less-weak southern front, thus delaying their advances into his hinterlands where I would have been able to cut off the supply lines of his main defenders, this had a knock-on effect that, based on Barth's comments in this thread, even he underestimated:


2.) I couldn't safely leave pockets of his troops, of any size, behind. Because I was painfully well aware that all he would have to do is save some supply in those pockets for a fast-mover or two, or even a slow-moving infantry in the right position, and then lurch forward after I'm gone to sit on a key road junction. Here, perhaps, my unfamiliarity with this particular game also hampered me, because I didn't have a true feel for how long to guard these little (and sometimes not-so-little) pocket castles until they could safely be ignored.

Contrast this to the pocketing in our prior game of DC3:Barbarossa. Due to the difference in time scale (I suppose), which was two weeks per turn in that game and only two days here, a group of pocketed troops of any size would be quickly unable to move in that game and then even blip out of existence without relief within a mere handful of turns. Here, I had no clear way of knowing when any pocketed troops would become worthlessly immobile (much less blip out of existence -- that did happen, but as far as I know it only happened to some of my brigades!)

Consequently, as Barth critiqued me about upthread, I had to waste time messing with his pockets rather than pushing toward any orange-dot objectives. But I wasn't doing that because I wanted to. I was doing that because I couldn't trust Barth not to be awesome!


Those were the main two reasons I ran out of time, even though I had bought an extra two turns of time at the beginning! But I can think of some others.

3.) This partly goes back to scenario design, perhaps, but I ended up over-extending Brandt's and Wodrigs groups despite knowing they were a-historically weak, and despite only trying to recon-probe. That's because there were a ton more Polish troops guarding the East Prussian border than I was expecting. Maybe he railed them up there, but he didn't seem to mention that in his first reports.  ??? This left those two gruppes easily surroundable, and with Barth's aggressive counter-blitzing easily surrounded.

I was able to avoid this with Falkenwrath's Corps (on the southwestern corner of East Prussia, annnnnnd now you are insane, sorry  :buck2: ), because I just fought head on with them -- they were strong enough to do that -- allowing me to slip a division or two around the backs of the Polish corps defending against the Falc.

I'm not sure if this is what Barth was referring to upthread when he was confused about one of my divisions turning back north. Even though I made a deep recon probe with a couple of divisions between Falc's group and Wodrig's, I never intended to run them for Warsaw or anything like that -- precisely because I knew Barth would snip off their supply easily. My goal was just to look around west of Mlowa while I still could, and then link up with forces driving eastward from the other side of the Polish coastal salient, to hit the blocking Polish corps from behind. A classic spearwall/cav/sword field maneuver. (This wasn't a reason why I lost; I'm actually proud of this maneuver. But then, I had to make it because I couldn't just pocket his corps there and leave it behind.)

Anyway, once I learned just how many Polish units were coming up against my weak Prussian probe, I bungled pulling back to defend against their counter-push. I managed not to totally lose the game there, but it sure didn't help me; and since the game eventually came down to whether I could invest Warsaw from its eastern side, which I couldn't, then in that sense my bungled defense contributed to my loss.


4.) Related to trying to go around behind Warsaw when I started to have a chance, I made the mistake of focusing a number of my fast-moving divisions on thrusting LITERALLY NOWHERE USEFUL for several turns. In my partial defense for that blunder, I did have another pocket of Bartruppen that I couldn't just leave alone to do whatever he wanted, which in this case would have been to cut off my tenuous supply line to my second (and eventually main) thrust on Krakov. Had I thought a little farther ahead, I might have been able to redirect those fast divisions to run behind Warsaw in time to at least hail mary over-against Warsaw's river defense. Or maybe not, but still that was a major mistake. I might not have won being in better position at the end, but not being there at the end sure sealed my loss; and that's traceable back directly to this mistake.


5.) I should have had my engineers more focused earlier on repairing bridges, instead of being mobile light infantry (handy though that often was). I'm unsure how much that cost me in the end, but I definitely should have focused on that sooner.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on December 07, 2017, 12:18:33 PM
Interesting analysis... I guess I should open the last turn to see how I won...?

I really want to see you stuff before I give my summary... Maybe I can go through it all tonight...
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2017, 12:58:41 PM
I don't have a final video yet; but you can watch the others now.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2017, 12:59:29 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on December 07, 2017, 12:18:33 PM
Interesting analysis... I guess I should open the last turn to see how I won...?

Sure, as far as the turn goes.  O0
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on December 07, 2017, 01:13:12 PM
It was a fun game. I decided early on to go balls out and try to cause as much trouble as I could.... so much so that at one point I thought I'd screwed up and cost myself the game. You can probably see the change in tempo/direction in my playing. I was basically hoping I'd spooked you enough that I'd have time to cover my ass....

Also there's a harsh event that fires on the Poles from time to time. The commander of the Army group around Lodz periodically refuses to move any troops! Of course during our game this happened right as you parked your army right up against them... and I couldn't get away... for 2 turns!!!
I was sure you were just going to plow through there and straight into Warsaw. I madly scrambled to get troops in that open space... then I saw your other moves making for the back field stuff to avoid having to take Warsaw and scrambled to shift troops the cover those spots...

Very nerve wracking last few turns...
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2017, 04:21:28 PM
It occurs to me that playing the turn won't really reveal why I calculated I had no chance of getting through. Basically air recon won you the game.  :D -- once I got a good look at what you had around to slow me down going north along the river road, I realized I had no chance of punching through in my two remaining turns after this one (even though you only had 1 remaining turn after this one).

Nor did I have any chance of getting to Bialystock or some other far-east orange dot city in two turns, much less doing anything there. Without all the other orange dots, I needed Warsaw to win -- which I wasn't going to get.

Another five turns, and I'd give myself 75% odds of taking Warsaw by then.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2017, 04:26:23 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on December 07, 2017, 01:13:12 PM
I was sure you were just going to plow through there and straight into Warsaw.

Not unless I could either remove or block off all your pieces to prevent you snapping my supply. And having even one ring of long-dug-in-defense around Warsaw would slow me down considerably, giving you ample opportunity to throttle me off.

Thus my attempts toward the end, to swing around and hit you from behind across the river. But again even if you didn't send forces across the river to speedbump me on the road, I'd have to have enough divisions to garrison the river road AND ALSO to punch over a large river into a long-dug-in-city that I was never going to be able to unsupply.

Doable, but not in two turns of play remaining.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on December 07, 2017, 11:34:34 PM
Watched all yer AAR films tonight. Good Job! Way better than my half-assed written one.

I can tell you that you were too worried about the pockets. Once you hade then set all you needed was a few infantry units to sit near to starve them.. about 2 turns. After that they can't move at all.

Oh, and Ploand gets a card that can be used to turn any city into 5000 point supply source. I used that on Krakow which is why let it be cut off from Warsaw.

Again a great game thanks for playing it over such a long period.


Now... since we can't continue the campaign... would you like to play the France scenario, either side, or maybe play Poland again with me as Germans?

Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Sir Slash on December 08, 2017, 12:00:59 AM
Sounds a lot like what happens to me when I played this scenario, I get to Warsaw about 2 turns shy of winning it. Usually the weather screws me up at some point as well. Great match to both of you.  O0
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2017, 09:20:01 AM
The random weather was a little bit of a problem, but not nearly as much as in DC:3 when the mud essentially doomed me. (I mean, other things doomed me, too, but had one of them gone right instead I'd have lasted longer or even maybe won. The mud kept me from a couple of significant counter-blitzes, of the sort Barth successfully pulled off here, and also contributed to preventing my escape from several pockets.)

Quote from: Barthheart on December 07, 2017, 11:34:34 PM
I can tell you that you were too worried about the pockets. Once you hade then set all you needed was a few infantry units to sit near to starve them.. about 2 turns. After that they can't move at all.

Yeah, I really, really, reaaaaalllllyyy didn't trust that. Especially for large pockets. A lack of experience on this particular (version of this) game system.

Quote from: Barthheart on December 07, 2017, 11:34:34 PM
Oh, and Ploand gets a card that can be used to turn any city into 5000 point supply source. I used that on Krakow which is why let it be cut off from Warsaw.

I figured you had cached up there, but I wasn't worried. I'm pretty confident I would have pushed through in my last two turns.

Incidentally, you were asking above why I hadn't started assaulting Krakov yet. I'd have to double check my turns, but basically I recall three factors:

1.) the divisions pulled up at the 'front' of the city weren't strong or numerous enough to kick in the front door through your defensive ring without being shattered themselves (or so it seemed to me). I had only cut you off from supply pretty late, so since I didn't know for sure you had supply cached there I wanted to create and give the pocket time to work (if it could).

2.) the back door to the city, north of the river, relied on tenuous road supply situation that wasn't secured yet and I sure didn't need those troops pocketed, too! Also I still needed to get enough troops around back there to be of any use. In fact, I did try setting up a provisional hit from the north, off the road, in the middle of the forests, and I got those troops stuck out of supply for my efforts. This was however partly due to needing to rush some fast-moving units back to clean up and secure my bridges and roads from counter-blitzes that I had let get too far behind me, and at the time the HQ for the units I had sent around back was one of the only feasible choices for the fast security mob I threw back there. Naturally this hampered my supply line, but even when I could get it back around, that HQ had to sit on the road quite a bit north of the city in order to funnel supplies back around in two directions.

3.) Relatedly, your counterblitzing REAAAAALLLLLYYYYY violated that corps (and some related divisions) pushing up from the southeast sector. The survivors were in no position until the last few turns to try to even harass the defenders across your southern river border.


Ditto on: "again a great game thanks for playing it over such a long period."  O0


Quote from: Barthheart on December 07, 2017, 11:34:34 PMNow... since we can't continue the campaign... would you like to play the France scenario, either side, or maybe play Poland again with me as Germans?

Technically I do want to try France, but I need to spend some time working on other mp games first (especially Ysk's Red Thunder mission) before I start a new mp anywhere. I'll get back in touch once my schedule has cleared out some more!

(Perhaps relatedly, the Crisis Grogs are looking into doing a game of Successor or maybe Pericles on Vassal, which I haven't been in position to try to help set up yet -- but which I'll have a little more free time with now.  :coolsmiley: You're in that group so you'd be invited to join of course!)

(Also, and definitely relatedly, now I can focus more time on getting the FIRE IN THE GROGS 2 game AAR up and running.)
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on December 08, 2017, 09:42:01 AM
Yeah this game is all about supply.

One thing about supply that I'm not sure if you knew but all German supply originates from the OKH HQ chit. So your moving t forward early while I was "counter-blitzing" made your supply lines really long... you actually helped me out there.  O0

Supply flows from the OKH to the Army HQ then the Div. HQ and finally to the unit. Or it's supposed to work that way. If you select a unit and the click on the supply icon, Gerry can, then select the OKH HQ you can see the supply route take to the unit. Full supply reaches out for the first 250(maybe 200?) mechanized movement points worth of hexes. So the more of those first 250 MP are on rail and road hexes the farther out it stretches.
Then it's down to 75% supply for the next 25 MP, then 50% for 25MP, then 25% for 25MP. (Numbers might not be quite correct, I'm a bit foggy.. but I use the overlay a lot to help with this)
So the both sides really need to keep all their HQ's on rail/road hexes for maximum supply distribution.

Supply movement takes a big hit crossing a river without a bridge which is why I spent so much time blowing bridges. Watching your replays I saw a lot of your forward units operating below full supply. The little square in the upper Left corner is supply status. Green good, down to red = empty.
Damaged engineers take longer to gain construction points to fix bridges. That's why I took a shot at any engineer that presented itself.

DOH! I thought up something else to tell you while typing all this but now it's gone... stupid 50yr old brain....
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2017, 10:48:50 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on December 08, 2017, 09:42:01 AM
Yeah this game is all about supply.

One thing about supply that I'm not sure if you knew but all German supply originates from the OKH HQ chit. So your moving t forward early while I was "counter-blitzing" made your supply lines really long... you actually helped me out there.  O0

This is of course why I also gave OKH some divisions and let him run forward early, too. OKH is always on rails, and (despite some efforts from you) he was never in danger of being cut off from Frankfurt. On that point I was trying to balance moving him closer into range of the Army Group HQs, with moving him off major rail junctions sometimes. (Plus giving a bit of extra punch in the middle of the western sector.)

What would have hurt more was moving my other HQs around like light mech/motor infantry to help with initial assaults. This naturally got them off the road networks sometimes, much moreso away from major junctions. But usually, aside from some emergency actions (like racing back to secure my supply line against a couple of successful blitz-sneaks), I kept them near their divisions and near some road network -- which was pretty easy to do in the first half of the game. So I never had supply problems to amount to anything, except for the times that my HQs got caught along with their corps in pockets. In which case my moving them along wasn't a factor. Case in point, keeping my corps HQs for the southwestern sector way behind the push, wouldn't have helped anything for them to be outside the pocket you created with the zakopane marcher. At best I might have blocked him from getting quite as far -- using the HQ as the blocker! (Eventually I had to do this anyway with another HQ and some fast movers.) The Army HQ supplying the whole southern front was cut off from supplying them by other factors, similarly: blown bridges, effective counter-blitzing onto the supply lines. This is where I did suffer from not pulling my engineers back sooner, from helping create surround-attacks to fixing the bridges.

On the other hand I never did figure out how to properly trace supply on the supply layer from a unit to its supply source. "If you select a unit and the click on the supply icon, Gerry can, then select [any] HQ you can see the supply route take to the unit." That was super-dumb of me.  :crazy2:

In the second half of the game, I kept my HQs back on supply lines a lot more; also I had to work in two or maybe three areas at defragmenting my divisions back to their corps.

Incidentally, while I nominally understood the rail-movement rules in relation to OKH, I could not make my brain accept how totally dumb it would be for this rule to apply against the East Prussian rail movement -- and yet, in the game, they need to rely on overland OKH rail. So I kept being confused about why I couldn't rail anything there at first. After all, it wasn't like my East Prussian crews were cut off from supply despite being functionally unable for the same reasons (i.e. as the Polish coastal salient and any bridges blown in that area) to trace their supply line overland back to OKH!


Quote from: Barthheart on December 08, 2017, 09:42:01 AMDamaged engineers take longer to gain construction points to fix bridges. That's why I took a shot at any engineer that presented itself.

I never had any problem with this, except once that I recall (having to wait an extra turn for more points -- and then I think the rain on a larger river was also a factor). Maybe twice, I don't recall for sure. Otherwise it was roll up to a bridge, end turn to collect my points (which has to be done in any case so far as I could ever tell), then go over.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Sir Slash on December 08, 2017, 12:06:59 PM
I think that's why in DC: Case Blue, the top-most HQ's ( Stavka % OKH) can't move... to keep you from really screwing up your supply lines. You may have a Decision Card that can move them but otherwise they stay put. When I played Case White, I tried to find a way to cut the Poles supply by air strikes on they're bridges but it didn't seem to be anywhere that they couldn't re-route it to.

I think this scenario is all about taking Warsaw. Take it and it's pretty much a win, don't take it and you really have to struggle to come up with enough VP's elsewhere. Like I've already said, I have lost this one as The Germans more times than I have won it.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on December 08, 2017, 12:13:00 PM
If you want to hamper the Polish supply, bomb the bridges right in Warsaw, then go after bridges on the west side of the river. Those two bridges in Warsaw supply all of the south and north east side of the map.
;)
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Sir Slash on December 08, 2017, 12:16:09 PM
But the Poles ALWAYS have Air and AA units there to defend them don't they? I thought it would be too costly. And, if you bomb Warsaw often enough, is it possible to completely destroy it's supply status?
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on December 08, 2017, 12:19:35 PM
The German air force is more than a match for the Polish one. A few turns of constant bombing and the Poles won't have any planes left.

No you can't destroy or lessen the supply by bombing.

Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: mirth on December 08, 2017, 12:20:19 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on December 08, 2017, 12:19:35 PM
No you can't destroy or lessen the supply by bombing.

Interesting.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2017, 01:30:53 PM
That's a bet I totally missed even trying: cutting off supply coming from Warsaw by bombing the bridges (once I got close enough to do it).

I don't think it even once occurred to me as an option. I can't even say I chose not to in order to focus on recon (where I focused my air 95% of the time) or because I thought early German air power in this game was ineffective on ground targets (where I focused my air the other 5% of the time). I just didn't think about it at all.  L:-)

I'm provisionally willing to add that to my list of failure reasons.


On the other hand, I was pleasantly surprised at how effective my mostly-panzer-1-and-2 armored groups were. I guess if you throw enough tracked golf-carts with machine guns and microcannons at a problem, there will soon be fewer problems.  :coolsmiley:

I really thought, looking at the compositions and remembering this isn't Panzer General, that I'd have to be a lot more clever about how carefully I teamed my armored brigades (or regiments rather, I suppose -- in the German OOB they use regiments instead as the formal unit under divisions, right?) with my infantry. But no, it didn't seem to matter much. Or maybe it did, but I wasn't cognizant enough to realize.  :crazy2:
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Crossroads on December 09, 2017, 03:08:10 AM
Thanks again guys, this was a most intriguing DAR to watch! As a DC newb, I picked a good few tips and tricks for my own struggles vs the AI, too.

Please, please continue to invasion of France next  O:-)
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2017, 10:21:33 AM
I wonder how many fans have taken up VR's offer to make the DC3 engine available for creating other campaigns? I suppose if I were less lazy I could go find out...  :crazy2:
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Crossroads on December 09, 2017, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 09, 2017, 10:21:33 AM
I wonder how many fans have taken up VR's offer to make the DC3 engine available for creating other campaigns? I suppose if I were less lazy I could go find out...  :crazy2:

There was at least a Winter War module out, in addition to a Volkov to Tichwin sample by VR themselves.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 21, 2018, 09:39:44 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 07, 2017, 11:33:11 AM
....
0.) The campaign designer(s?) chose to put the famous 19th Corps with all its famous power and leaders (Rommel, Guderian, etc.), totally out of position. Even Falkenwrath (or whatever his name was, in my headcanon it's this so there  :P ) was largely out of position -- and he was the most competent corps remaining in East Prussia! In their place were a weak reservist division (treated like a corps, Brandt's Gruppe); and a weak corps made of two weak reservist divisions (Wodrig's). Plus some scattered auxiliaries attached to the army HQ, like a sizeable but still reservist garrison division that would take me several turns to a-historically move out of place to try to make up for problems.
....

Man for the longest time now this statement has stuck in my brain.... because I believed it to be a false one but couldn't find an easy way to disprove it.

This map shows the disposition of the Germans on Aug. 31, 1939. XIX Corps and XXI Corps in the game are exactly where shown on this map.

(https://historicalresources.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/campaign-in-poland-disposition-of-oposing-forces-31-august-1939.jpg)

This next map shows the German operations for the 1st 2 weeks of the campaign and you can see how XIX Corps moves across the top of the map, through East Prussia and then down towards Brest. Also XXI Corps moves east across East Prussia before coming down on top of Lomzo.

(https://historicalresources.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/campaign-in-poland-1-14-september-1939.jpg)

I think you might have been thinking of where they operated not where they first started.

Whew! Now my OCD can let me sleep at night....  ;)
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Sir Slash on March 21, 2018, 10:39:44 AM
I don't know how XIX Corp got through those swamps. I never could in the game.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on March 21, 2018, 11:54:41 AM
Okay, fair point. Although I can't see that happening in DC1, especially against a competent player who wouldn't let Falkenwrath's corps just pull back and loop around to push south along Wodrig's path. Maaaaybeee the 19th Corps could loop across the Polish Gdynia salient all the way over to where Brandt's Gruppe was pushing down south (west of Grodno) to V(W)isnia (and the famous 40:1 block).

But clearly they did it in real life; and not the fault of the designer trying to balance the map by ahistorical positioning. I should make a followup episode correcting my annoyance about this.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 21, 2018, 01:00:14 PM
Having found this, I now want to play the game using exactly these maneuvers and see if I can make it work.....
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on March 21, 2018, 03:07:34 PM
I sure as heck wouldn't move the 8th Army that way against a human player; the Poznan army would have all the opportunity in the world to fall upon the logistic tail and that would be the end. I wouldn't move the 21st Corps off station for much the same reason: that's just inviting trouble from a human commander who isn't early 20th century Polish.

Looks like the 14th Army had a lot less trouble against Krakov than would be expected against a modern human player, too: sweeping right by it would be disastrous unless the human player pulled back everyone to stack in the city so that a short circumference noose could be hung around it preventing breakouts.
Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: Barthheart on March 21, 2018, 04:08:54 PM
Looking at this timeline of the campaign....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_invasion_of_Poland

I don't think it's even possible against the AI... the movement rates aren't big enough...

Now I REALLY want to try it....  :D

Title: Re: DC1: Warsaw to Paris - Jason vs Barthheart
Post by: JasonPratt on March 21, 2018, 07:53:58 PM
And they've improved the AI since then with routines from DC2 and DC3!  :hide:

I have to presume that the key on the northern front is to connect to the rail network through the Gdynia salient freakishly fast and then rail the 19th corps over to Brandt's Gruppe pronto. Maybe rail the 21st over to Wodrig's, too, and hope the AI is historical (dumb?) enough to just sit there with its Polish corps congratulating itself on scaring off the Nazis.

The more larger-scale wargames I play, though, the more I realize the Nazis got lucky against inept opponents early enough to have what looked like a shot at keeping Europe for themselves.

(...not that this explains my loss against you in DC3... ;) )