Scourge of war remastered

[Jarhead0331]

Probably one reason I have an aversion to the South to this day.  In my humble opinion the victorious North should have pounded the South to dust and forbade any use of symbols, flags and/or memorials to the traitorous southerners.  Similar to how Nazi Germany and Nazi symbology was and is banned in Germany.  The leadership in the North following the Civil War (and up to about 1900) was poor.  I won't get into the mistakes of the Reconstruction Era.

This is entirely unnecessary and I think it is ridiculous to make a comparison between the antebellum South and Nazi Germany. The north did "pound the South into dust", which is exactly why people in the South have such long memories. Regardless, we have members here who are from and/or who presently live in the South and there is no reason to make comments that are likely to inflame or cause a debate over a very complex issue.

Thank you.

[Tanaka]

"The cultural differences and the aversion to the north is still prevalent. My Dad still calls them Yankees haha. Things have come a long way since then and the sixties though...but yes the removal of Confederate names and monuments is of course very controversial in these places..."

Probably one reason I have an aversion to the South to this day.  In my humble opinion the victorious North should have pounded the South to dust and forbade any use of symbols, flags and/or memorials to the traitorous southerners.  Similar to how Nazi Germany and Nazi symbology was and is banned in Germany.  The leadership in the North following the Civil War (and up to about 1900) was poor.  I won't get into the mistakes of the Reconstruction Era.

As far as visits are concerned I'd throw in Springfield, Illinois (Lincoln), Galena, Illinois (Grant) and I'll throw in Arlington National Cemetery.

I really hope they get on with the remastering of the Civil War titles.  There's really nothing else like them. 

Oh I certainly understand why many do. And many southerners do as well. Don't put all southerners in one basket. It has been an inner fight long going on. You can find lots of books on the subject. Culture is like religion it is something you are born and raised into and something you have to decide for yourself if you question one thing or another. As for myself I love the south and I hate the south. Have always been a questioner. It is my home but I see the cracks in the walls all over. I could go into modern day politics but that is a pandoras box to never open.

https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Lee-Me-Southerners-Reckoning/dp/1250239265

"In a forceful but humane narrative, former soldier and head of the West Point history department Ty Seidule's Robert E. Lee and Me challenges the myths and lies of the Confederate legacy―and explores why some of this country's oldest wounds have never healed.

Ty Seidule grew up revering Robert E. Lee. From his southern childhood to his service in the U.S. Army, every part of his life reinforced the Lost Cause myth: that Lee was the greatest man who ever lived, and that the Confederates were underdogs who lost the Civil War with honor. Now, as a retired brigadier general and Professor Emeritus of History at West Point, his view has radically changed. From a soldier, a scholar, and a southerner, Ty Seidule believes that American history demands a reckoning.

In a unique blend of history and reflection, Seidule deconstructs the truth about the Confederacy―that its undisputed primary goal was the subjugation and enslavement of Black Americans―and directly challenges the idea of honoring those who labored to preserve that system and committed treason in their failed attempt to achieve it. Through the arc of Seidule's own life, as well as the culture that formed him, he seeks a path to understanding why the facts of the Civil War have remained buried beneath layers of myth and even outright lies―and how they embody a cultural gulf that separates millions of Americans to this day.

Part history lecture, part meditation on the Civil War and its fallout, and part memoir, Robert E. Lee and Me challenges the deeply-held legends and myths of the Confederacy―and provides a surprising interpretation of essential truths that our country still has a difficult time articulating and accepting."

Nice suggestions yes I loved my visit to Arlington. Of course Robert E. Lee's house is there as well...

[Old TImer]

Apologies for a stupid thoughtless post.  Caught me in a bad mood.  Sorry to all I offended.

[Jarhead0331]

Apologies for a stupid thoughtless post.  Caught me in a bad mood.  Sorry to all I offended.

No worries, Old Timer.

Thanks!

[Toonces]

I remember a few years ago I had to go to a conference outside of Norfolk, Virginia, and my hotel was on Stonewall Jackson Parkway.  I thought that was pretty cool.

[JasonPratt]

I totally understand comparing the Old South to Nazi Germany: despite lots of big and important differences, it's certainly true that slavery was a hellish reality that the eventual consolidated government broke the Union to try to keep for themselves.

Mom and I just watched Gone with the Wind, me for the first time (aside from snatches here and there), Mom for the first time since she was a teenager -- that's a really much more complex film than "Yankees bad" (though we still call northerners Yankees down here, affectionately usually), which is the modern rap it tends to get. The streaming service where we watched it, even had to feature a snowflake disclaimer about how the film -- not the topical setting mind you, which would be understandable, but the film itself -- is supposedly a terribly racist and deplorable product of its time! When its Academy Award winner was a black actress who has maybe ten minutes total screentime! It's a fine role and performance, no doubt, but really, what?

Its story and presentation (at least on film, I've never read the book) is actually super-critical of the various cultural levels that led the South to secede in order to keep its slave state from even naturally falling apart a while longer. At a superficial level, sure, the film can be watched as propaganda for slaves having a great life, partly because all people are people and people can love and respect one another across the worst possible class differences -- but the nightmare isn't far below the surface. (Unlike in, to give a groggy example, Gods and Generals, where the love and respect is on rare display but the nightmare isn't to even the same small proportion.)

Of course as grogs we know on one hand that we can play wars and battles as good sports without agreeing with the hideous realities behind the wars, thus without necessarily having to acknowledge those realities while in the game -- because the game is the goal in itself. Thus I look forward to playing the South in the ACW asap on the updated SoW engine! Because reality is more complicated than a friendly game, we can study all aspects of conflict on one hand while enjoying some of those aspects on the other.

The North did absolutely shatter the South: that's why Sherman burned King Kong's gate on his march to the sea!  (I pointed that out to Mom while the buggy was passing by it.) But some leaders in the North realized that a true union could not be reforged without the people of the states becoming friends again, instead of the South being reduced to an iron curtain ghetto under the dominion of carpetbagging opportunists. Those leaders prevailed historically, and the whole planet had better be glad that that included allowing honor to fallen enemies -- because that union of wary but real friendship between former foes who slew one another more grievously than anyone else has ever slain them, before or since, has helped save the world from something worse than the Old South several times in several ways.

The supervillains of the world today (whomever different people will regard them to be, and wherever they may be) will not be unhappy at all if the friendship of the people of the United States shatters to pieces once again. It is no exaggeration in today's world to say that the future existence of humanity, as such, depends not entirely but still crucially on the cooperative respect of people, both socially and militarily in honor of each other, in and around fallen Atlanta, for people in and around victorious New York City -- or Lancaster, Ohio for that matter.

........so, in conclusion, Grogheads must be one of the twelve pillars on which the world still stands, the end, good night!   

[Destraex]

Did you watch the Disney version? If so I think that one did have some scenes removed?

[Tripoli]

I totally understand comparing the Old South to Nazi Germany: despite lots of big and important differences, it's certainly true that slavery was a hellish reality that the eventual consolidated government broke the Union to try to keep for themselves.

Mom and I just watched Gone with the Wind, me for the first time (aside from snatches here and there), Mom for the first time since she was a teenager -- that's a really much more complex film than "Yankees bad" (though we still call northerners Yankees down here, affectionately usually), which is the modern rap it tends to get. The streaming service where we watched it, even had to feature a snowflake disclaimer about how the film -- not the topical setting mind you, which would be understandable, but the film itself -- is supposedly a terribly racist and deplorable product of its time! When its Academy Award winner was a black actress who has maybe ten minutes total screentime! It's a fine role and performance, no doubt, but really, what?

Its story and presentation (at least on film, I've never read the book) is actually super-critical of the various cultural levels that led the South to secede in order to keep its slave state from even naturally falling apart a while longer. At a superficial level, sure, the film can be watched as propaganda for slaves having a great life, partly because all people are people and people can love and respect one another across the worst possible class differences -- but the nightmare isn't far below the surface. (Unlike in, to give a groggy example, Gods and Generals, where the love and respect is on rare display but the nightmare isn't to even the same small proportion.)

Of course as grogs we know on one hand that we can play wars and battles as good sports without agreeing with the hideous realities behind the wars, thus without necessarily having to acknowledge those realities while in the game -- because the game is the goal in itself. Thus I look forward to playing the South in the ACW asap on the updated SoW engine! Because reality is more complicated than a friendly game, we can study all aspects of conflict on one hand while enjoying some of those aspects on the other.

The North did absolutely shatter the South: that's why Sherman burned King Kong's gate on his march to the sea!  (I pointed that out to Mom while the buggy was passing by it.) But some leaders in the North realized that a true union could not be reforged without the people of the states becoming friends again, instead of the South being reduced to an iron curtain ghetto under the dominion of carpetbagging opportunists. Those leaders prevailed historically, and the whole planet had better be glad that that included allowing honor to fallen enemies -- because that union of wary but real friendship between former foes who slew one another more grievously than anyone else has ever slain them, before or since, has helped save the world from something worse than the Old South several times in several ways.

The supervillains of the world today (whomever different people will regard them to be, and wherever they may be) will not be unhappy at all if the friendship of the people of the United States shatters to pieces once again. It is no exaggeration in today's world to say that the future existence of humanity, as such, depends not entirely but still crucially on the cooperative respect of people, both socially and militarily in honor of each other, in and around fallen Atlanta, for people in and around victorious New York City -- or Lancaster, Ohio for that matter.

........so, in conclusion, Grogheads must be one of the twelve pillars on which the world still stands, the end, good night!   

Jason-Excellent post. 

[Sir Slash]

Important to remember R.E. Lee was personally opposed to slavery believing it was destructive to the Southern Middle Class. Thomas Jackson violated Virginia state law to teach black slaves and freed men to read and write so they could read and preach the Bible among themselves. And every anti-slavery organization in the nation was based in the South prior to John Brown's Raid, all of them connected to southern churches. History is not one shade of either black or white.

[Skoop]

Well I stopped by to see the SOW thread and it took a turn, but good comments made by all, still made it worth the read.

[ArizonaTank]

George Thomas, a southerner (Virginia), seems to encapsulate the war for me.

Like Lee, he was offered a command in Virginia's army. But instead, he stayed in the Union Army and took a command under Sherman.

After Chatanooga, a chaplain asked Thomas if the dead should be buried by state as had been done at Gettysburg.

Thomas' reply sums up the war for me in a small way. "No, no, mix them up, mix them up" He said.  "I'm tired of state's rights." 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/catching-up-with-old-slow-trot-148045684/

[JasonPratt]

Did you watch the Disney version? If so I think that one did have some scenes removed?

Definitely not Disney, I don't have that service. I'm pretty sure it was Prime but I haven't checked recently... okay, figured how to check at Amazon, and confirmed it was rented from Prime.

[Jarhead0331]

Guys...can we please return the discussion in this thread to one about the actual game. 

[Destraex]

Did you watch the Disney version? If so I think that one did have some scenes removed?

Definitely not Disney, I don't have that service. I'm pretty sure it was Prime but I haven't checked recently... okay, figured how to check at Amazon, and confirmed it was rented from Prime.

Prime would have the disney version as well. I just wondered if you saw the unedited older version (I had only heard and not verified that disney changed it after acquiring the rights) your thoughts may or may not be different.
I will leave it at that though as Jar wants us back on topic. I just felt I needed to explain what I meant.

[Father Ted]

Guys...can we please return the discussion in this thread to one about the actual game. 

This is a thread about a game?