Author Topic: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread  (Read 128192 times)

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Offline IncompetentIdiot

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1290 on: February 28, 2019, 08:52:28 PM »
My proposal is definitely for option 2, board the legions on the fleets and send everything under Scipio, who voids the war's D/S results for the naval battle and the land battle. We should have enough surplus fleets that we can lose a few without taking any legion losses before they even land.

Regarding Consuls, I suggest:

Scipio for Dictator.
A Militarist MoH, either Julius or Manlius.
A Plutocrat Rome Consul.
A Populist Field Consul.
A Conservative Censor (who agrees not to prosecute)
And Pontifex back to the Progressives.

That way every faction gets something.

This arrangement is what I'd prefer as well.

While I understand the sentiment of everybody getting something, I believe it is in the best interest of Rome to have the Field counsel be a militarist.  First of all, I'm not terribly excited about the prospect, given the very real chance of a militarist senator dying in a battle against the Carthaginians.  I actually don't benefit much from being MoH, and the risk of losing one of my senators makes the proposition dubious for my faction.  However, keeping the Republic alive is more important.  So I am willing to risk one of my senators as MoH.  However, I don't believe that this is the best course for the Republic. What is important is winning the 1st Punic War before the 2nd becomes active.  With a -2 bad omen modifier, and Hamilcar in command, and the very real possibility of losing legions in the naval battle, we will need to have the strongest field counsel available.  That indicates  a militarist.  Alternatively, we can have the entire campaign under the command of a Dictator/MoH, but that risks giving the dictator a "double tap" boost in popularity and influence if they do win both engagements, something that because of balance of power considerations the Senate may not want.  THerefore, I believe the best course of action is to have a Dictator/MoH with a large fleet and a militarist land commander both maximizes the chance of winning, minimizes the possible Roman losses, and ensures that no player unduly benefits, which is important to us keeping the Republic going.

Scipio, with his Magister Equitem will be able to reach a higher bonus than any single senator, in addition to the cancellation of D/S results. I do recognize the concern regarding my disproportionate share of the spoils (although I would note that my senators currently have less influence and popularity, both individually and in sum, than do yours), so I wouldn't mind consenting to Valerius' replacement as governor of Gallia Cisalpina (his MIL score is pretty useless if he needs to defend the province).

Offline Erax

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1291 on: March 01, 2019, 04:13:12 AM »
I'm aware that the Militarists are getting the least out of this proposal, but in past turns they got Dictator+MoH and then both Consuls +MoH, they're doing OK.

Concerning the Punic War, the D/S situation is such that if we send anyone other than Scipio we have a 50% chance to not win, regardless of the number of troops. My analysis keeps coming back to the same conclusion - letting Scipio handle both battles is the safest way forward.

The province governorship is about to become a liability with the Second Punic War about to besiege it, so we might as well leave Valerius there, it will in some measure compensate for the Aristocrats getting the best out of this proposal.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1292 on: March 01, 2019, 06:49:31 AM »
Worth noting that you can always Recall Val next Turn and send someone better suited to Province defense. But (if I recall correctly) a senator's Mil skill only works on Legions (and Republican Fleets), not on any provincial units. (This admittedly makes little sense, but I suppose was set up for game balance reasons.) So unless he gets sent a Garrison Force, his military capability won't matter.

The best defense against the province being rolled (and, worse, picked up and used for its remaining military strength by the War), is to knock out the War.

This leads to the question of whether Prosecuting a War will keep it from attacking its target Province(s) -- while still allowing the Governor to try attacking the War himself at his discretion. If that isn't a rule, I would be willing to house-rule it since it seems both obvious and reasonable (though I'll have to consider game balance, too. I've expanded and tweaked the Provincial War rules quite a bit already.)
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Offline malize

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1293 on: March 01, 2019, 11:33:03 AM »
Maybe a way to resolve the impass is to take a longer view re: militarist in power positions


That is to say — if we follow the min/max numbers logic for success in this critical war, and the militarist wins...he takes his benefits and agrees to sit aside for a couple turns when it comes to senate appointments.


This would seem a possible way forward to get best war results now and the concerns about militarist power


I provide this merely in attempt to help us forward.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1294 on: March 01, 2019, 11:43:57 AM »
A public Contract might be useful along that line.

Perhaps relatedly: even with the adjusted more reasonable automatic Consul-for-Life appointment rules -- which are so new I'll need to go look them up again ;) -- the Militarists are coming close to triggering an automatic win, if they sweep the Naval and Land Victories this Turn.

I don't want to keep moving the goalposts on this, not least because it wouldn't be fair for any Players trying to win the game early by themselves. So there needs to be foresight on this problem, too, within the rules. An easy solution would be for Tripoli to Contract one or more senators out from accepting CFL office appointment (which would still leave them with the option to get it done legally by voter manipulation cough cough  >:D ) .
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

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Offline Tripoli

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1295 on: March 01, 2019, 04:32:17 PM »
A public Contract might be useful along that line.

Perhaps relatedly: even with the adjusted more reasonable automatic Consul-for-Life appointment rules -- which are so new I'll need to go look them up again ;) -- the Militarists are coming close to triggering an automatic win, if they sweep the Naval and Land Victories this Turn.

I don't want to keep moving the goalposts on this, not least because it wouldn't be fair for any Players trying to win the game early by themselves. So there needs to be foresight on this problem, too, within the rules. An easy solution would be for Tripoli to Contract one or more senators out from accepting CFL office appointment (which would still leave them with the option to get it done legally by voter manipulation cough cough  >:D ) .

I'll publically state that I am willing to forgo any militarist winning via an auto-victory.    I really am interested in seeing the Republic survive as a republic.  IMHO, that is far more difficult and challenging then a strongman taking over.  See: All of Recorded Human History..... :'( 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 04:34:23 PM by Tripoli »
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Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1296 on: March 01, 2019, 04:36:31 PM »
Is that a Contract? Technically I have to have it put that way, in order to enforce it.

(Contracting out of an automatic appointment win, should be well within the game rules, since it would be considered a strategic move to avoid losing the game altogether.)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 04:38:36 PM by JasonPratt »
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

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Offline Tripoli

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1297 on: March 01, 2019, 09:15:22 PM »
Yep I will make it a contract. I really am intrigued to see whether we can keep the Republican form of the Roman govt going
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Offline Tripoli

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1298 on: March 02, 2019, 07:12:18 AM »
And just to clarify-I am agreeing that the counsel for life (Appointed) provisions do not apply to any militarist.  The elected counsel for life provisions provisions continue to apply.  After all, it is true democracy if you can't vote away your freedom?   >:D
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Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1299 on: March 02, 2019, 10:08:41 AM »
Contract added to your mat, and to the standing Contract area.  O0

Okay, where are we in terms of senatorial plans this Turn...?
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

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Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1300 on: March 02, 2019, 10:43:58 AM »
I think everyone so far, who has spoken up, would agree to support a Contracted plan where the Fleets and Legions attempt to punch through under one Force Commander (as Dictator plus MoS/H presumably), risking some Legions casualties on the water. I don't think I saw anyone arguing specifically in favor of sending two Forces, one Sea one Land? -- the primary problem being that whoever isn't Scipio in that scenario risks a nearly 50/50 chance of an automatic D/S result, which even if the Populist Statesman with the 50% damage debuff is in charge (Fabius Maximus), will mean no Victory and next Turn everything gets much worse.

Another alternate to sending everyone under Scipio (to avoid the War's basic D/S results) plus a Militarist MoS/H (to buff the Legion punch as much as possible), would be to send three Forces to hit the War, on the theory that if the first two attacks burn out a D and S result each, no such result can remain this Turn (whether Naval or Land!) and the final attack surges at (almost) maximum strength with the D and/or S results gone.

On a plan of this general sort, the Field and Roman Consuls would each go forth first with one Fleet each as sacrificial bait, like those generals during the Republic who ritually devoted themselves to the battle and charged in suicidally, hoping to earn the gods' favor for the main assault coming after him. You'd have a 75.45% chance of burning out at least a D or S result, though of course less of a chance burning out both (depending on which burns first). Then Scipio follows in with a Militarist MoS/H behind the sacrificial senators with the remaining Fleets (minus 2 presumed dead) and all the Legions, just in case both results didn't burn out.

It's the same plan as the Scipio variant of Option 2 (as generally proposed by Erax), but two senators (presumably weak family Senators not Statesmen) are sacrificed along with two Fleets to improve his chances by probing feints.

I don't want to go further in making this an actual suggestion with more suggestions on how to best work it out. But I thought I should mention how the D/S burn rule (which hasn't been a factor yet since no one has sent multiple Force Commands against the same War at the same time) might be legally applied here in favor of increasing Scipio's success.

I will however note that this makes Last Ditch financial security by electing a Plutocrat as HRAO, more dicey. If one or both of the Consuls survive, he/they'll return back to Rome immediately at the end of the Combat Phase (presumably without his Fleet of course), and could thus end up in charge during the pre-Senate Phases next Turn -- not a Plutocrat HRAO!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 10:49:35 AM by JasonPratt »
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR, lots of screenies.

Offline Tripoli

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1301 on: March 04, 2019, 09:21:00 AM »
...

It's the same plan as the Scipio variant of Option 2 (as generally proposed by Erax), but two senators (presumably weak family Senators not Statesmen) are sacrificed along with two Fleets to improve his chances by probing feints.

I don't want to go further in making this an actual suggestion with more suggestions on how to best work it out. But I thought I should mention how the D/S burn rule (which hasn't been a factor yet since no one has sent multiple Force Commands against the same War at the same time) might be legally applied here in favor of increasing Scipio's success.

I will however note that this makes Last Ditch financial security by electing a Plutocrat as HRAO, more dicey. If one or both of the Consuls survive, he/they'll return back to Rome immediately at the end of the Combat Phase (presumably without his Fleet of course), and could thus end up in charge during the pre-Senate Phases next Turn -- not a Plutocrat HRAO!

I'm not sure this is a workable option.  The odds of a faction loosing a member, along with the political power, is too great.  Regardless of who the sacrificial lamb would be, it seems to me that there would have to be side agreements to compensate them for their loss of members.  Such agreements would be very difficult to craft.  I recommend that we decide how we are going to prosecute the Punic war, ie, one dictator/MoH or a Dictator/MoH and land commander, UNLESS someone wants to identify who will "bell the cat" using Jason's proposed third force option, as well as any side deals that they want for such a force.  I'll say that I'm not willing to risk my faction members on it.
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Offline malize

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1302 on: March 04, 2019, 12:55:11 PM »
As an aside, it seems odd to me that it would be so relatively easy to attain a game winning position so early in Rome’s history...I guess that’s make Sulla the winner IRL, but he wasn’t, was he?   It’d think the winning position would be that of Caeser, or even His heir...it’d not enough to be first man for life, your inheritor would seem to need an equal standing to insure continuity of the line (or face civil war...you could see that as being the irl outcome.  Augustus had to fight to gain the inheritance, but being the second of his faction AND family in succession as First Man cemented the imperial dynasty

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1303 on: March 04, 2019, 01:59:01 PM »
Yeah, I don't know that the designers really thought this through. But I think the concept was based on: Can the Players keep the Republic alive cooperatively, while being tempted to throw the Republic under the bus for their own power and advancement?

The obvious end-game states would be 1, the Republic just outright crumbles from bad management and/or exterior pressure (including bad luck to be honest); and 2, the Republic ends with a senator and his coterie overthrowing the Republic to create an Empire.

On that theory, engineering a Consul for Life election -- which can't be easy to do since no one would elect you! -- would constitute a single-win condition like a successful rebellion, because your Faction has gained pre-eminent power by shattering the basis of Republican government. The Republic is done, even if only temporarily, but you win alone, so everyone loses except you.

I can see that in principle, once put in the context of the original game concept (keeping the Republic alive past its historical expiration), but because engineering such an election is so hard to do then the designers must have felt that it didn't create enough internal temptation pressure to screw with each other, so they introduced the idea of an automatic appointment to Consul for Life. Which is bonkers, especially in the over-simplistic way they implemented it.


Relatedly, did you notice that according to the vanilla rules, even as late as the Living Rules April 2018, a Player can win EVEN IF HIS EMPEROR/CONS-LIFE GETS CAPTURED IN BATTLE?!

Yeah. That's a thing. (I seem to recall he can win even if his senator gets killed off, under certain conditions, just for having produced him! -- not only in the sense of coming back later after losing him, which is totally possible for a Player with a failed Rebel Emperor, though not very likely of course.)

But winning with a Captured Emperor makes a slight margin of sense when considered in the context of Can the Republic survive without being broken? Player X broke the Republic, so even though his Emperor can't rule he still wins.

(I'm pretty sure I house-ruled this out: the Emperor has to still be in power at the end of the Turn.)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR, lots of screenies.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #1304 on: March 06, 2019, 03:28:44 PM »
Progress update: AzTank, who controls the current Dictator senator (Paullus Macedonicus), and therefore who is playing the Presiding Magistrate for the first Mandatory Business Proposal (the Consuls), is trying to cipher through the various discussions and recommendations to make a Consul Proposal.

I'm not sure when he'll make a decision, of course.

Any further help in boiling down advice and analysis for him will be appreciated!  O:-)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR, lots of screenies.