Russia's War Against Ukraine

[al_infierno]

Yes, I'm sure Putin's just trolling about his enthusiasm that the president more likely to withdraw support from Ukraine got elected.  Another brilliant gambit!

I'm not sure exactly where you're getting this from. Trump has never said he is going to "withdraw support" from Ukraine. To the contrary, he has said that if Russia refuses to negotiate and accept certain terms, he will dramatically increase material support for Ukraine. On the flip side, I'm sure it means that he will also put pressure on Ukraine to accept certain terms that may not be desirable, or else. That is simply how you make a deal and in my business, a good settlement usually means both sides walk away pissed.

What we know with certainty is that Trump wants the war to end and that he believes he can accomplish that quickly. I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with this position in principle, unless he or she has a major stake in the military industrial complex. Trump's intentions are purposefully vague, which is part of his effectiveness when it comes to strategic and foreign policy. He is unpredictable and none of his potential enemies really know what he will do.

Regardless, I'm ok talking about Trump as his landslide victory may impact the strategic balance, but let's please continue to avoid anything that crosses obvious lines. I let one derogative comment slide, but let's all help each other stay focused and rational.

By using my eyes and ears to read and hear what he's saying.  He victim blames Zelensky for "letting the war start" and criticizes the amount of aid they get, not to mention openly admiring Putin. Between that and Russian outlets openly celebrating his victory -- and given the concerted effort of Russian trolls to call in bomb threats to voting centers in liberal areas -- it's not exactly a leap in logic that Trump is good news for Russia and bad news for Ukraine, no matter what flavor of diarrhea most recently came out of his mouth.

But sure, in between his incomprehensible word salads, rants about immigrants eating cats and dogs,  misinformed opinions about LGBTQ people and (reality in general), anecdotes about sharks and boat batteries and Hannibal Lecter, wistful wishing for violence against his opponents and reporters, and pretending to suck off his microphone, he occasionally says something prescient about how war is bad and people shouldn't die. I guess that makes his intent crystal clear.

You're right though, he's unpredictable and we likely won't know what his "plan" is until the day he decides to drop-kick some half-baked idea through the air.  The idea that Biden was somehow unfit for office in comparison is totally laughable.

[CptHowdy]

He supports killing babies in the womb, he supports the alphabet people and he supports a two state solution in Israel. The only difference between him and kamala is that he doesn't change his ethnicity and accent on a daily basis. The left should be celebrating 🎉

[JudgeDredd]

As someone said recently - it's like France invading England and taking East Sussex, West Sussex and Kent and everyone telling the Brits to suck it up and just accept that that's not their land anymore.

Or to make it more applicable to the conversation in hand - like Florida being taken by "whomever" and America being expected to cede it and not give a shit.

It's easy on the outside to say "Why not just give th Donbas up". Well, for one - because the **** won't stop there. And for another - it's not your land. Make the argument about your land and all of a sudden, your view changes.

**** me - the state of the Donbas I wonder myself why the hell Ukraine would want it back - it's a ghost zone. But it's not my land right?

I saw an American guy on the TV today (can't recall his name) saying that Ukraine might have to cede the Donbas. Other people on the panel were against it and he said "Well that's the only way it's going to get resolved - either that or NATO getting involved".

There you go. That's the answer. NATO get's in there and kicks that **** out. **** his threats.

Talk about history repeating itself. I thought people were meant to learn from history.

[al_infierno]

He supports killing babies in the womb, he supports the alphabet people and he supports a two state solution in Israel. The only difference between him and kamala is that he doesn't change his ethnicity and accent on a daily basis. The left should be celebrating 🎉

This is getting well beyond the purview of this thread, but the idea that Trump supports abortion rights and "alphabet people" (as you so kindly put it) is so downright ridiculous that I have to wonder if we even inhabit the same reality.

[CptHowdy]

he held a party at mar-a-lago celebrating the passage of the same sex marriage law. he supports abortion https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/16/celebration-same-sex-marriage-mar-a-lago-00074441 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-harris-abortion-2024/

seems clear to me. what am i missing?

[Pete Dero]

Regardless, I'm ok talking about Trump as his landslide victory may impact the strategic balance, but let's please continue to avoid anything that crosses obvious lines. I let one derogative comment slide, but let's all help each other stay focused and rational.

People, let's avoid closing this topic.

[al_infierno]

he held a party at mar-a-lago celebrating the passage of the same sex marriage law. he supports abortion https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/16/celebration-same-sex-marriage-mar-a-lago-00074441 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-harris-abortion-2024/

seems clear to me. what am i missing?

What you're missing is years of policy and public statements. https://glaad.org/fact-sheet-donald-trump-on-lgbtq-issues-health-care/

But sure, throwing a party celebrating himself erases all that.

Let's drop it now so the topic doesn't get closed.

[CptHowdy]

he held a party at mar-a-lago celebrating the passage of the same sex marriage law. he supports abortion https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/16/celebration-same-sex-marriage-mar-a-lago-00074441 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-harris-abortion-2024/

seems clear to me. what am i missing?

What you're missing is years of policy and public statements. https://glaad.org/fact-sheet-donald-trump-on-lgbtq-issues-health-care/

But sure, throwing a party celebrating himself erases all that.

Let's drop it now so the topic doesn't get closed.

yes i just read that link before you posted. everything he does is celebrating himself. he is a narcissist and yes consider it dropped. this is a thread about russia-ukraine.

[Sir Slash]

The topic WAS dropped until someone had to vomit it up here and then wouldn't let it go. The Fresh Prince once told me, "Don't start nothin'. Won't be nothin'" We should all live by that. 

[JasonPratt]

Well, fortunately for the Russian troops sent to die at an average of three weeks, BILD is reporting that North Korean food has started arriving to help their average-final-days be more healthy and palatable and--

--and it's dogmeat. Of course. The photo shows Nureongi canned dog meat. That's Korea's version of a yellow spitz, raised for consumption in the glorious workers' and peasants' paradise of true Korea up north.

Hat tip to the Enforcer. Time-stamp 13:45, but Matt has rounded up some other war news (including for Israel).

[Jarhead0331]

As someone said recently - it's like France invading England and taking East Sussex, West Sussex and Kent and everyone telling the Brits to suck it up and just accept that that's not their land anymore.

Or to make it more applicable to the conversation in hand - like Florida being taken by "whomever" and America being expected to cede it and not give a shit.

It's easy on the outside to say "Why not just give th Donbas up". Well, for one - because the **** won't stop there. And for another - it's not your land. Make the argument about your land and all of a sudden, your view changes.

**** me - the state of the Donbas I wonder myself why the hell Ukraine would want it back - it's a ghost zone. But it's not my land right?

I saw an American guy on the TV today (can't recall his name) saying that Ukraine might have to cede the Donbas. Other people on the panel were against it and he said "Well that's the only way it's going to get resolved - either that or NATO getting involved".

There you go. That's the answer. NATO get's in there and kicks that **** out. **** his threats.

Talk about history repeating itself. I thought people were meant to learn from history.

The Sussex and Florida comparison is a fair one, with one exception. Ukraine is expecting the rest of the world to take risks and incur substantial costs in order to supply it with arms to fight its war. If Ukraine wants other nations to take risks so it can fight for its own land, then it should also expect those countries to not simply write a blank check. If some nation invaded Florida (note, many Americans would gladly cede Florida over to someone else) I wouldn't demand other countries to risk war over it without there being an expectation of a quid pro quo.

So, if Ukraine doesn't want to accept some conditions for aid, don't accept the aid.

[Jarhead0331]

This supports my point above about what Trump will do if Russia doesn't negotiate peace. 

[al_infierno]

^ Thanks for posting, I like Ryan McBeth even though he's named after one of the greatest fictional/quasi-historical villains of all time. 

Just to be clear, I do hope I'm wrong about Trump in this case, and while I'm obviously not happy he's our president-elect, I'm not the type that thinks he'll be a dictator or the end of democracy or whatever. I think there could be a good outcome here, but I'm not optimistic. Also, I want the record to state that I would not like for Florida to be ceded from the Union! 

[Sir Slash]

I am very optimistic. The way the war is going, Ukraine is slowly bleeding to death. She can hang-on and hope to bleed more slowly or try another direction. If the price of oil drops worldwide, Russia's cash cow dies and maybe her whole economy as well. She needs another direction too. Either, or both, could choose self-destruction for national honor but maybe they will choose peace instead.

[al_infierno]

On the other hand, Ukraine faces the conundrum that "peace" with Russia has meant delayed aggression for basically as long as they've existed. Who's to say they don't just invade again in another 10 years or so?  That's not to say indefinite war is preferable, but as others pointed out, you can imagine a similar circumstance in the event that a foreign power tries to invade Florida.  Would we accept "peace" and give up half of Florida, knowing it's just another breather so they can refresh and reinforce for a decade down the line when they finish the job?  (Imagining for one second that we don't project an absurd amount of military power, for the sake of the analogy)