Russia's War Against Ukraine

[Crossroads]

Another substack by Lawrence Freedman has been out for a few days, on China-Russia relations ("Loud thunder, but few raindrops"), Bakhmut, the coming (?) Ukrainian offensive, and Putin's options.

Well worth a read, again.


https://samf.substack.com/p/still-bakhmut

[GDS_Starfury]

pretty sure this is part two of a trench fight video I posted last week.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1641848860996771841

[FarAway Sooner]

That being said, I don't think there is anyone here who would object to seeing how the Russian media is spinning the war, particularly as it pertains to the strategic situation on the battlefield. Starfury has definitely posted some twitter clips of Russian media discussing the war. Most will find it amusing and I don't think there is any risk of any of our members actually buying into any of Russian propaganda like some of them seem to have done with the Western brand of propaganda, which in my view is at least equally responsible for prolonging the war in certain respects.

I probably should just walk away, but let me pick up this bone and chew on it a little.

1) I grant you that both sides are doing their best to change hearts and minds, using methods both authentic and devious.  Are you asserting some kind of moral equivalence between the pro-Russian propaganda targeting its own people and the pro-Ukraine propaganda largely targeting Westerners?

2) Could you elaborate why you think Western propaganda is responsible for prolonging the war? 

I can imagine answers to these questions above, but you're a very logical guy.  Star, please don't start yelling at him and calling him names if he responds.  I'm trying to understand a side of the argument that I don't yet understand.

[GDS_Starfury]

oh Id like to hear his thoughts on this as well.

[Jarhead0331]

That being said, I don't think there is anyone here who would object to seeing how the Russian media is spinning the war, particularly as it pertains to the strategic situation on the battlefield. Starfury has definitely posted some twitter clips of Russian media discussing the war. Most will find it amusing and I don't think there is any risk of any of our members actually buying into any of Russian propaganda like some of them seem to have done with the Western brand of propaganda, which in my view is at least equally responsible for prolonging the war in certain respects.

I probably should just walk away, but let me pick up this bone and chew on it a little.

1) I grant you that both sides are doing their best to change hearts and minds, using methods both authentic and devious.  Are you asserting some kind of moral equivalence between the pro-Russian propaganda targeting its own people and the pro-Ukraine propaganda largely targeting Westerners?

2) Could you elaborate why you think Western propaganda is responsible for prolonging the war? 

I can imagine answers to these questions above, but you're a very logical guy.  Star, please don't start yelling at him and calling him names if he responds.  I'm trying to understand a side of the argument that I don't yet understand.

No reason to walk away. Your questions are genuine, reasonable and asked with interest in the spirit of open dialogue and discussion. That is refreshing and I am happy to indulge.

No. I am not asserting a moral equivalence. As I have said several times, and putting the issue of NATO expansion aside, nobody can make a credible argument that Russia's invasion is anything but entirely illegal and that the Russian military and Putin haven't committed egregious crimes in flagrant violation of international law.

However, while Russian propaganda is aimed at justifying its blatant acts of aggression, Western propaganda is substantially aimed at maintaining public support for the war not to ensure the freedom of the Ukrainian people, but rather to wage a proxy war that destabilizes Russia while benefiting the military industrial complex and multi-trillion dollar corporations that have extremely close ties to government.

Adam Schiff said before Congress, and I quote, "the United States aides Ukraine and her people so we can fight Russia over there so we don't have to fight Russia over here..."

In war, it is said, the truth is the first casualty.

[GDS_Starfury]

Western propaganda is substantially aimed at maintaining public support for the war not to ensure the freedom of the Ukrainian people, but rather to wage a proxy war that destabilizes Russia while benefiting the military industrial complex and multi-trillion dollar corporations that have extremely close ties to government.

my initial takeaway is that we both consume very different forms of media.  the vast majority of things I see are very much about ensuring Ukrainian freedoms and restoring as much territory as possible.  these would be whatever format of media across European and American platforms predominantly. 
Im not going to even try and spin some bullshit about how this doesnt benefit the "complex".  it 100% does and Im ok with that because it benefits the wests defenses as a whole.  its not just Raytheon or Boeing, its BAE and Saab and scores of other companies.  I think thats a net good thing.
Im also fine with finishing russia without an American life being lost.  Im a Cold War kid, I dont like them.

[Jarhead0331]

I consume media that questions the narrative. Media that is actually and simply just in search of the truth, be it good or bad. Not Fox News. Not pro-Russian propaganda. I suggest if all the media you consume is "very much about ensuring Ukrainian freedoms..." then you're only consuming media that is telling half-truths and you should probably broaden your horizons.

I grew up during the Cold War hating Russians too...you do realize that the hatred for Russians is solely due to the same propaganda machine that I'm questioning and criticizing today.

And the propaganda that benefits war profiteers is not a net good thing, particularly because it is being done for the benefit of the very few at substantially great risk to the very many. It mystifies me that you're prepared to buy into it all hook, line and sinker without any inkling urging you to dig deeper.

[GDS_Starfury]

I have and continue to view media that I dont agree with.  I am the one thats posted those russian media clips after all.  its also not about me digging deeper to find new information or that Im buying something hook like and sinker.  I pay attention to all of this information and this is a stance I choose to take on this matter.  simple as that.  you have your views for the same reason. 
back onto the topic at hand.  Ive found the media that Ukraine puts out is far more positive and strikes at notes that are western for lack of a better term.  the recovering wounded clips are pretty strong, to give an example.
another effective use of media has been showing moral footage of Ukrainian soldiers.  theres almost nothing
comparable coming out of russian media.

[Sir Slash]

If keeping Ukraine free is a benefit to the whole world, then why don't Weapons Manufactures sell defensive systems at cost to the Ukrainians or even donate them for free? The fact that great profits are generated by providing a country the means to defend their people, means those making the profits have a vested interest in prolonging the conflict. That can't be ignored when trying to find an end to the fighting.

[GDS_Starfury]

I think that a great many of the systems given to the Ukraine are in fact donated.  the catch it the cost of replacing those stock for the donating country.  that costs money and is a big part of what JH is talking about.
theres also the very real cost of bringing donated kit out of storage and making it ready for the field.
as an example, Spains giving around 100 Leo 1a5s to Ukraine but bringing them out of storage isnt cheap.

[FarAway Sooner]

That's a fair analysis, JarHead.  I suspect that you and Star even agree on the basic conclusions.  You just weight different aspects of those conclusions differently.

The military-industrial complex was never a fabrication of the left (as many of you probably know, the term was coined by Dwight D. Eisenhower in his last speech as President).  I do wish that the treatment of the Ukraine War had a little more emphasis on the human cost of it and a little less HIMARS porn.

[GDS_Starfury]

there are weapon systems that the west could have given the Ukraine months and months ago that would actually shorten this war.  the collective west chose to short walk everything because russia is a nuclear power.

[GDS_Starfury]

the next battlefield?

[Pete Dero]

pretty sure this is part two of a trench fight video I posted last week.

Did they film a war crime ?  At the 8.30 mark you can see them waving a white flag but the firing continues.


Also : don't these tanks have machine guns ?

[GDS_Starfury]

Ive rewatched that section over and over and I dont see any white flags at all.