What are we reading?

[Airborne Rifles]

Considering that Russia backed Serbia to stand against Austria, the next potential stop to the war would have been Russia I think, not Germany per se. Without their support, the Serbs would have been forced to the negotiation table.

(Admittedly I'm speaking from my mediocre experience of reading about WW1 and watching docs, and from my vast experience of refusing to back the Serbs as Russia one time while playing Darkest Hour. ;) )

Hastings argues that Russia was acting well within their rights and within international norms by ensuring the independence of a smaller nation against a larger one, much as Britain did with Belgium. Russian had mobilized their army a few years previously for a similar incident but hadn't gone to war, so Hastings says that the Russian decision to mobilize cannot be taken as a casus beli. Germany by contrast acted well outside of international norms by giving Austria the "blank check" to go after Serbia, and by basically having the attitude that they wanted to fight the Russians now rather than later. I found it pretty convincing.

[Gusington]

I agree with what Hastings says about Germany and Austria-Hungary being at fault for WWI. Austria-Hungary was hell-bent on punishing and making an example of Serbia, with back room support from Germany. Things would have turned out very different if Germany didn't violate Belgium too...which I am sure anyone reading this knows.

[Martok]

^How is Tides of War?

Well it's one of those books I make a point of reading once a year, so you might say I'm rather fond of it.  ;) 


My glib response aside, however, Tides of War truly is magnificent.  It brings the Peloponnesian War (probably my favorite period in ancient Greek history) to life in a way that probably no other book (fiction or non-) ever has for me.  It's a glorious tragedy, exploring not just the character of the historical Alcibiades (from the perspective of a longtime friend/acquaintance), but of Athens itself as well.  The novel expounds a fair bit on the great promise and potential of Athenian democracy, but how instead the city generally squandered it -- how more often than not it was its own worst enemy, inflicting far greater damage on itself than Sparta and all its allies combined ever managed over 27 years of destructive conflict...on a scale not seen even during the Persian Wars from a half-century earlier. 

While Pressfield is probably best-known for Gates of Fire (a fictional, but well-researched, novel covering the 300 Spartans and the Battle of Thermopylae) -- and very deservedly so, Tides remains my personal favorite work by him.  If you have any interest in an epic tale covering the Peloponnesian War, or even just ancient Greek history in general, then this is absolutely one to pick up. 

You should now also watch the John Adams series from HBO. I actually have it on disc if you would like to borrow it...I could ship it to you. It's great.

Thank you Gus, that's very generous of you.  I'm probably going to defer on your kind offer for the moment, as I'm likely moving in the next month (not far, just to the next town over) and wouldn't wish to risk losing/misplacing your discs in the process.  Once I'm settled in at my new place, however, I may very well take you up on it.  :) 

[Gusington]

^Cool man - let me know.

Don't take this the wrong way but last night I actually had a Peloponnesian War...going to Amazon to find a good copy of Tides of War and then maybe to Steam for the R2 Spartans expansion.

Not sure what is wrong with me :)

[Martok]

Sweet!  If you enjoy it even half as much as I do, it'll be money well-spent.  O0 

Not sure what is wrong with me :)

No more than the rest of us, my friend.  We are all here demented.  :P 

[JasonPratt]

Hastings argues that Russia was acting well within their rights and within international norms by ensuring the independence of a smaller nation against a larger one, much as Britain did with Belgium. Russian had mobilized their army a few years previously for a similar incident but hadn't gone to war, so Hastings says that the Russian decision to mobilize cannot be taken as a casus beli.

The question isn't whether they were acting well within their rights and international norms. The academic question is whether they could have put a stop to the treaty of dominoes by choosing to do something different, seeing as how they were next in the domino line, not Germany.

[Gusington]

Tides of War is available for .01...even if it's terrible it's kind of worth it :)

[Martok]

Tides of War is available for .01...even if it's terrible it's kind of worth it :)

Ha.  Yeah, definitely at that price! 


(Oh, and a word to the wise if at any point you do end up getting the Sparta DLC for Rome II:  If you fire up an Athenian campaign, for gods' sake, start on Easy difficulty!  Athens is definitely a...challenge. ) 

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Hastings argues that Russia was acting well within their rights and within international norms by ensuring the independence of a smaller nation against a larger one, much as Britain did with Belgium. Russian had mobilized their army a few years previously for a similar incident but hadn't gone to war, so Hastings says that the Russian decision to mobilize cannot be taken as a casus beli.

The question isn't whether they were acting well within their rights and international norms. The academic question is whether they could have put a stop to the treaty of dominoes by choosing to do something different, seeing as how they were next in the domino line, not Germany.

I disagree, I think someone brought this up in another thread, maybe airboy, when we were discussing Guns of August. One General, Moltke iirc, lied to his leader when he was asked for a plan to fight Russia. The plans were already drawn up in a safe, he could have done as asked. Instead he was determined to use the Shliefen plan, which Guaranteed bringing France and the UK into the war. If Germany had fought Russia alone they might have pushed Russia out of Europe.

[Gusington]

You read my mind, Martok. I was looking into the Rome 2: Wrath of Sparta campaign yesterday while posting here but it's pricey @ 15.00 and the reviews are mediocre. What do you think of it?

[Airborne Rifles]

I'm going to need to re-read Tides of War. I wasn't overly impressed the first time I read it but I was much younger and didn't know anything about the Peloponnesian War. I suspect I will enjoy it much more today.

[Gusington]

^Have you read Donald Kagan's history? I am not even into the era much but I enjoyed that book. Made me interested to read more.

Pressfield has mixed reviews everywhere - some people love his work and some people do not.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Reading David Brooks The Road to Character.
Yet another fine work from him.

[Airborne Rifles]

^Have you read Donald Kagan's history? I am not even into the era much but I enjoyed that book. Made me interested to read more.

Pressfield has mixed reviews everywhere - some people love his work and some people do not.

Yes, read that one when I was deployed a couple years ago. Enjoyed it, but I read it right after a really well-written history of Cortez's conquest of the Aztecs that kind of over-shadowed it for me. I think that book was very creatively named Cortez or something, but I can't for the life of me remember right now.

[Gusington]

If not Cortez, maybe Conquest :)