The "Uber" Command: Modern Air/Naval Ops Thread

[Dimitris]

How representative was the dipping sonar example?  I noticed you had "manual override" set the whole time.  Is there really no way to program a mission into your helicopter units to make this task easier?

You can of course assign the helicopter to a mission, but you can also easily control it manually.

There are two main differences:

* In Harpoon you must manually set the helo to hover at low altitude in order to deploy a dipping sonar. In Command you can use a hotkey which instructs the helo (regardless of its present throttle & altitude) to automatically hover at low altitude and deploy the sonar. So for example you can have a helo sprinting very fast to a fresh detection area, press the hotkey and not have to worry about throttle & altitude adjustment. This was a player request and we added it as it is obviously quite useful.

* In Harpoon the dipping process is instantaneous (the sonar is assumed to be lowered and retrieved in a blink), and the helicopter is not tied down to its dip location (you can move out again at any time). This (combined with the insta-acceleration and insta-turn kinematics) gives a significant advantage to the helicopter as essentially it is allowed to continuously monitor the submarine, almost like trailing a towed array, instead of taking "snapshots" (ie. the submarine has no window of opportunity to evade).
In Command it takes some time to hover, lower the sonar, operate it and retrieve it again, and it also takes time for the helo to move again. During this time the helicopter is "committed" to a specific location,  and during the lapses of sonar coverage a crafty or lucky submarine can avoid detection or degrade an existing one sufficiently to escape. Of course with multiple helicopters or sonobuoys etc. this becomes much more difficult.

So I think it's fair to say that the dipping sonar implementation in Command is both easier to manually control, and more faithfully models  its tactical limitations.

Developers: if you make a Linux port (and I can somehow convince my lady to let me spend ~£60 on it) I will be in. :)

We'll see  :)

[Huw the Poo]

If you don't mind the limitation, great.  However, there are others who do not agree with the limit and are forced to accept someone else's perception of reality.

Uh, name one game which doesn't "force" you to accept someone else's perception of reality?

Developers: if you make a Linux port (and I can somehow convince my lady to let me spend ~£60 on it) I will be in. :)

We'll see  :)

Linux version confirmed!!! \o/

[Reckall]

So let me get this straight....the last 5 or so pages of this thread are dedicated to someone arguing CMANO is a bad simulation because most aircraft have a maximum speed that is a few knots lower than spec?

No. The last "5 pages or so of this thread" are devoted to that specific limitation of CMANO. It is not the only one pointed in the review and the overall judgement comes from the sum of all the shortcomings (which are A LOT) as perceived by the author and explained in his video review (it is worth noticing that if a limitation generates five pages of debate, then by taking all of them together you could write a book about CMANO limitations :) ).

Some people will always try swimming against the current.

I can only agree.

[Huw the Poo]

(it is worth noticing that if a limitation generates five pages of debate, then by taking all of them together you could write a book about CMANO limitations :)

Well, no, you could fill a book with one person being ridiculous and everyone else saying "wuh?"

[Reckall]

Uh, name one game which doesn't "force" you to accept someone else's perception of reality?

Skyrim. There are professional archers which thought that the archery model is broken, and mod it so it is more realistic.

You could argue that this forces you to accept their perception of reality - but at least you have a choice. And to the modder the archery model becomes more coherent and realistic according to his experience in the field. And you can do the same and not being forced to accept someone else's perception of reality.

Now, try this with CMANO and tell me what you will be able to do in a scenario where a group of Backfires, after a surprise attack, tries to reach MACH 2 to avoid the forcedly delayed NATO reaction. Send a whistle when you find the answer.

[Reckall]

(it is worth noticing that if a limitation generates five pages of debate, then by taking all of them together you could write a book about CMANO limitations :)

Well, no, you could fill a book with one person being ridiculous and everyone else saying "wuh?"

I can only agree that it would make for a funny book  :)

[JudgeDredd]

(it is worth noticing that if a limitation generates five pages of debate, then by taking all of them together you could write a book about CMANO limitations :)

Well, no, you could fill a book with one person being ridiculous and everyone else saying "wuh?"

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I just couldn't get on with it and I think I gave it a fair shot. True - I didn't hold out for all these patches and enhancements but I did try, try and retry the game and just couldn't get into it. I found trying to find things out too difficult and some things were overload.

I don't necessarily see the game from HH's point of view - but it certainly wasn't a very enjoyable experience for me and it was a waste of the $100 I paid. By no stretch of the imagination am I suggesting that other people would see it as a waste of money...YMMV. As I also pointed out - plenty of people think it's the dog's bollox.

[mirth]

Skyrim. There are professional archers which thought that the archery model is broken, and mod it so it is more realistic.

Skyrim is your basis for realism in gaming? I hate to break it to you, but dragons aren't real.

I guess you probably just run around with your uber-realistic archer hunting wabbits.

[RyanE]

The funniest part of this discussion about forcing someone to play their way...that is how command was born.  Parts of the Harpoon community got pissed off.  Instead of hanging around and trying force the rest of the community to come around to their way of thinking, guess what they did...

They went and built their own game.  They what worked/didn't work and built those lessons into Command.  To people who are incredibly wound up about that, you an very easily go back to Harpoon, or not so easily build your own game...what these guys did.  HH had a choice; he went with riding a dying horse that started on its death ride.  The Warfaresim guys built their own game.  They have been incredibly clear on how it would work.

If this was the only naval game out there, I would buy the argument that you feel the need to pursue this as along as possible hoping the only game in town changes.  But since there are options, use them.

[Huw the Poo]

Uh, name one game which doesn't "force" you to accept someone else's perception of reality?

Skyrim.

LOL!  Thanks, I needed that!

[GDS_Starfury]

I hate to break it to you, but dragons aren't real.

YOU RUIN EVERYTHING!!!

[Kushan]

My first scenario is ready for testing. Primarily designed for new players, it combines all of the concepts from the tutorials into one scenario.

This scenario puts you in command of a US carrier strike group vs the latest Russian aircraft, subs, SAMS, and surface ships.

Feedback, comments, suggestions would be welcome. Thanks

Download

[Reckall]

Skyrim. There are professional archers which thought that the archery model is broken, and mod it so it is more realistic.

Skyrim is your basis for realism in gaming? I hate to break it to you, but dragons aren't real.

Command is your basis for realism in gaming? I hate to break it to you, but Backfires aren't limited to 950kts. And archery exists in our world, so you can do a comparison in realism.

Beside, Dragons in Skyrim do obey laws of physics. 

And this debate wasn't even about the genre, but about the posibility to fix a broken perception of reality in a game. Next time you decide to paint yourself in a corner, firs look at the corner.

Cheers!

[RyanE]

I can't believe Skyrim was used as an example...a game with millions of players and very console oriented.

Again, these guys went out and built a game they wanted...to their perception of reality.  Harpoon doesn't have that supposed limitation.  Why is any one here complaining about it?  Speak with your wallets and go buy Harpoon.

[Nefaro]

I can't believe Skyrim was used as an example...a game with millions of players and very console oriented.

Skyrim was obviously an example of a game that could be heavily modified.

I believe HH's biggest complaint has been about not being able to modify databases and other such stuff in CMANO, if I understood correctly.  That rates under mod friendliness I suppose.  Users were told not to do it as it breaks the license agreement and people were specifically warned, here on these forums, that discussing workarounds would result in punishment. 

So the modding situation looks to be the primary subject of contention, if I've understood the ongoing criticism correctly. 


I've never modded databases & such in the Harpoon series so I can't comment on that.  However, the interface tools and the AI support for them have been my concerns since release.  I hope to see those continue to improve.