Russia's War Against Ukraine

[GDS_Starfury]

how to kill russian btgs in a single picture.

[Gusington]

^I'm sure there are 1000s of Russian tankers who are having that image as a nightmare right now.

Have Apaches been sent to Ukraine?

[GDS_Starfury]

no

[FarAway Sooner]

My sense is that most helicopters in contested Ukrainian airspace are shot down in a hurry.  They still have their uses, but I think this war has proven that, in the absence of comprehensive SEAD and DEAD, you'll experience widespread DFHO (Acronyms are "Suppression of Enemy Air Defense", "Destruction of Enemy Air Defense", and "Destruction of Friendly Helicopters Overhead").

In terms of the picture, I'm with Slash and Gus on this one.  War is Hell.  We never know who's done what, even if we know which side we're rooting for.  That doesn't mean we don't want one side to win, but it does mean that the enthusiastic celebration for the death of an enemy soldier like it's a goal by your favorite side in a World Cup match is off-color.

I can acknowledge that the guy (among many others) had to die if we want Russia to ever stop this war of conquest.  But that doesn't mean that he didn't have a mom and a dad, likely brothers or sisters, maybe even children.  Heck, it doesn't even mean he's a he.  War is Hell.

[GDS_Starfury]

theres a massive performance difference between what being used by the Ukraine and russia and Western equipment.
I'd have to dig around for the interview of Ukrainian Hip pilots after they got trained to fly Blackhawks.
something along the lines of going from a lada to a BMW.  also keep in mind that the first strikes against Iraq
air defense in the first Gulf War were done by Apaches.  no one system is the be all answer but western stuff just
works better and is more survivable.

[GDS_Starfury]

and I still don't care about the vatnik - mobnik - flatnik - cubenik  life cycle

[Gusington]

Why no Apaches for Ukraine?

[SirAndrewD]

Why no Apaches for Ukraine?

Generally, we feel that Apaches and attack helicopters in general are only truly viable if the airspace is secure enough for them to operate with air cover.

The Russians have general air superiority and a lot of MANPADS so it's very likely that any we send will become huge priority targets without sufficient protection. 

They'd also require a lot of training and general stripping down to remove classified gear for fear of it getting captured. 

The UAF has been pretty bold and effective operating its own Helicopters so those fears may only be partly founded in reality, but yeah, the general answer to the hesitancy is that we think they'll just get shot down by Russian air and that's not something we want to see paraded around on Russian prime time TV.

[FarAway Sooner]

The Apaches fired the opening shots in Desert Storm because we could fly them in low and slow, and they breached the initial line of Iraqi radar stations through which the subsequent stream of attack planes flying decapitation and SEAD missions could nail Iraq.  After those initial decapitation strikes, we spent the next 3 or 4 days flying an extremely heavy concentration of SEAD and DEAD missions, as well as more efforts to go after Iraqi C3I--which was fragile in the first place.

Helicopters still have an application in modern warfare, but only after you've suppressed the enemy air defenses pretty well.  The Ukrainians are nowhere near that.  In the absence of that clear command of the air space over the front, it's much safer to use throw-away observation drones and laser range-finders to guide rockets and artillery shells onto targets.

[Sir Slash]

I actually thought you would approve of my statement Star. You automatically assume it was negative and intended to insult you. How do you know I wasn't agreeing with your opinion of the poor Roadkill Russian? I'm thinking you must be feeling some guilt about the poor guy yourself. Maybe he painted houses like you before he was forced by his government to fight and kill those he did not hate. Maybe he was run over so many times because he committed horrible acts against innocent people. Or maybe he was on the road because he was just trying to get back HOME. You can pick either one you choose to believe, but I don't think we can judge automatically for certain good or bad from thousands of miles away. Nor should we.

Putin's ambitions are the cause of this war not the poor bastard in the mud. He along with people who find joy in the continuing of this killing. 

[GDS_Starfury]

yes I read it negatively because of our history.  and no, I feel no guilt about laughing at another flatnik, its not the first one I've seen and it won't be the last.  I have no problem judging him because hes russian and I really really don't like russians.

[GDS_Starfury]

there are a lot of reasons this stuff costs so much.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/07/29/ukrainian-tank-losses-diminish-as-polish-technicians-save-more-and-more-damaged-leopard-2s/?sh=4df5c6f45e38

[Gusington]

Thanks for the above on the Apaches. I didn't realize that the Russians had as much control of the airspace as they do.

[JasonPratt]

If I remember an article posted here some months ago correctly, Russia has a very stand-offish "control" in the air, but still way ahead of what the Uks can currently do. Which is why they're desperate for better fighter platforms.

Meanwhile, I see that my dream of Ork vs Uk farming combat duels is getting closer to reality!

Also, I counted 8 obviously outkitted Longbows in that Apache group, with one copter too obscured behind others to tell, and several others appearing to be capable but not currently kitted up for it. As deadly as that looks, however, it assumes all those choppers got close enough to the targets to shoot; and my ideas about survivability are largely based on video game simulations. 

Worth remembering that our epic destruction of a Wagner-flushed BTG back during the Syrian Operation, was a very fully combined arms exercise, Apaches included.

[Sir Slash]

Yes Star, we do have a, 'History' don't we? That's what makes coming here so much fun, being able to speak plainly to each other with a bit of good-natured ribbing thrown in.

I'm thinking when this war is over, the big take away will be the use of drones by both sides. I know ISIS used them in Syria but never like here and now. Both sides use them for everything from recon to bunker-busting, anti-tank, and arty directing. You can't make a move without a drone spotting you, and then you're dead. And so both sides are scrambling for counter measures, and then counter the counter measures. I think this will be as revolutionary to warfare as the first working machine guns and massed use of tanks.

What do the Learned Minds here think?