Russia's War Against Ukraine

[Sir Slash]

An International Pariah but a very well respected one. And, one not needing to rely for it's survival on feckless politicians and their empty promises. I await the day Mr. Putin decides it is best for Russia to give-up her nukes for international assurances of respect for her territorial integrity. I think the Dodo will be back first.

[Uberhaus]

An International Pariah but a very well respected one. And, one not needing to rely for it's survival on feckless politicians and their empty promises. I await the day Mr. Putin decides it is best for Russia to give-up her nukes for international assurances of respect for her territorial integrity. I think the Dodo will be back first.

I agree totally that Ukraine has been let down by empty promises and lies.  However, Ukraine would have faced more and more external pressure to give up nuclear weapons.  A nuclear armed Ukraine would be well respected like North Korea.  No one dares attack it, but no one wants to associate with it either.  With invasion, Ukraine's hope lies in causing as much pain to Putin's regime as possible.  The West can support Ukraine by supplying weaponry and causing economic damage to Russia.   Putin will retaliate for these actions and we had best steel ourselves. It may be painful, however, we must aid Ukraine and we must finally stand up to authoritarianism.

[GDS_Starfury]

I saw a bit where it was theorized that the Ukraine would need to inflict 300 tank kills and around 10000 infantry kills to get putin to call off his adventurism.

[Uberhaus]

and 100 aircraft.  Was this Poland's Foreign Minister, Sikorski?  I'm still trying to find a clip from his interview on the BBC.

[GDS_Starfury]

it wasnt a video I saw, I read an article.
but yeah, thats the loss/win bet for the moment.
either Gulf War for us with those losses would be a totally different story in history.

[Gusington]

^I read that same set of numbers yesterday, I think in Reuters and yes I am pretty sure it was Poland's Sikorski.

International pariah or not, if I was sitting in eastern Ukraine right now I would be cursing the deal giving up the nuclear weapons.

Agreements, treaties and politicians have not been kind to Ukraine. The country attempted to abide by international law but now is threatened by a regime that could care less about international law.

*Poof* there goes the Minsk agreement, etc.

[Pete Dero]

^ The scary thing is that at this moment I don't believe a Ukraine with nuclear weapons would make Putin change his current course.

[Jarhead0331]

^the even scarier thing is that Zelenskyy is talking about trying to procure them.

[z1812]

An interesting article.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/biden-ukraine-speech-pushes-sanctions-russian-banks-s-not-going-ncna1289540

[Sir Slash]

I've been struck by the irony of Putin's claim that NATO moving east is a mortal threat to his country by putting it directly on the border of his nation. But by moving his army west, that's exactly what he's doing. An occupied Ukraine would border NATO Poland and his troops in Belarus are already next door to NATO nations. If NATO is so threatening, shouldn't he be moving east to get away from it? We know his true motives but at some point I hope the long-suffering Russian people will figure-out the obvious lies told them as a reason for their sons coming home in body-bags. 

[Gusington]

I am convinced that Russians in general prefer authoritarian leaders...as if they have a choice, anyway.

Look at the nostalgia and reverance for Stalin and the all too common nostalgia for the USSR.

[Pete Dero]

^the even scarier thing is that Zelenskyy is talking about trying to procure them.

That is something I haven't heard yet.

But even when they had them I don't think they had operational control over them.


Don't expect any protests in Russia as this equals a trip to prison (or worse).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26337693 Mass arrest of protesters at rallies in Russia (2014)
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/22/russia-protests-more-than-1000-arrested-at-pro-navalny-demonstrations.html   More than 1,000 arrested at pro-Navalny protests in Russia as demonstrators defy ban (2021)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-navalny-protesters-abuses/2021/02/26/c5d8856c-6aef-11eb-a66e-e27046e9e898_story.html   As some of the more than 11,000 detainees emerge from crowded detention centers, they speak of violence, fear and potential rights violations (2021)

[ArizonaTank]

^the even scarier thing is that Zelenskyy is talking about trying to procure them.

That is something I haven't heard yet.
....

I looked for a reference on this...and all I came up with is that Zelensky seems to be saying that because Russia has now blown up Ukrainian territorial integrity promised by the Budapest memorandum, Ukraine's promise to not have nukes is now void.

This implies that Ukraine could now pursue acquisition of Nukes. But I didn't see anything where he is actually trying to procure them. But I may have missed it. Or maybe this is just posturing.

Hopefully Jarhead will expand on this a bit.

[Jarhead0331]

^the even scarier thing is that Zelenskyy is talking about trying to procure them.

That is something I haven't heard yet.
....

I looked for a reference on this...and all I came up with is that Zelensky seems to be saying that because Russia has now blown up Ukrainian territorial integrity promised by the Budapest memorandum, Ukraine's promise to not have nukes is now void.

This implies that Ukraine could now pursue acquisition of Nukes. But I didn't see anything where he is actually trying to procure them. But I may have missed it. Or maybe this is just posturing.

Hopefully Jarhead will expand on this a bit.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/president-zelensky-suggests-ukraine-may-pursue-nuclear-weapons-to-counter-russia-putin-responds

[Skoop]

I've been struck by the irony of Putin's claim that NATO moving east is a mortal threat to his country by putting it directly on the border of his nation. But by moving his army west, that's exactly what he's doing. An occupied Ukraine would border NATO Poland and his troops in Belarus are already next door to NATO nations. If NATO is so threatening, shouldn't he be moving east to get away from it? We know his true motives but at some point I hope the long-suffering Russian people will figure-out the obvious lies told them as a reason for their sons coming home in body-bags.

Agree, this is really about Putin being terrified the Ukrainian democracy spreading to Russia like wildfire and toppling his corrupt hold.  If only the Russian people could see the charade that is Putin and his oligarchs, breaking through to them is a different story.   

Interesting thing is Finland which is pretty free and prosperous doesn't seem to threaten Putin much so maybe with Ukraine it's a slav thing.  Like the fellow slav Ukraine can't be allowed to exist because if they prove life is better right next door, it will expose him.