Russia's War Against Ukraine

[al_infierno]

Was doing some poking around whilst shopping for t-shirts. 

https://www.amazon.com/Support-Ukraine-President-Zelensky-Ukrainian/dp/B09V3GK6KB/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=590746072284&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001998&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=14041840941821078291&hvtargid=kwd-1641727548949&hydadcr=20669_9705450&keywords=president+zelensky+shirt&qid=1649260390&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G6Y52P2?_encoding=UTF8&customId=B07535YCL2

Interesting similarities.

Again with the Nazi thing?  You're aware the modern German Army uses a variation of the iron cross as its logo, correct?  And it's not uncommon for other militaries to use similar crosses. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by pointing this out.

[FarAway Sooner]

As we saw with COVID, media coverage seems more broadly shaped by what draws clicks than what information seems accurate, reliable, or to present a complete picture.  Inject fog of war, and it gets even more confusing.

I have no doubt that, in this conflict, the Russians are the bad guys.  But, if you're in an active shooting war and you're not lying, you're not trying hard enough.  I'll be curious to see if we ever figure out, months or years from now, where the Ukrainians were cutting corners on telling the whole truth.  I'd do nothing less if I were in their shoes.

At least as relates to the reported atrocities in Bucha, The Google newsfeed answered my question raised here as soon as I toggled over to Google News. 

https://www.polygraph.info/a/fact-check-russia-bucha-denials-false/31787136.html

[W8taminute]

Was doing some poking around whilst shopping for t-shirts. 

https://www.amazon.com/Support-Ukraine-President-Zelensky-Ukrainian/dp/B09V3GK6KB/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=590746072284&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001998&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=14041840941821078291&hvtargid=kwd-1641727548949&hydadcr=20669_9705450&keywords=president+zelensky+shirt&qid=1649260390&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G6Y52P2?_encoding=UTF8&customId=B07535YCL2

Interesting similarities.

Again with the Nazi thing?  You're aware the modern German Army uses a variation of the iron cross as its logo, correct?  And it's not uncommon for other militaries to use similar crosses. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by pointing this out.

It just bugs me but I'm not sure why.

Also I just saw this from Bloomberg News.  Look at the flag in the first few seconds of the video.  It's got that same symbol hand drawn on it.

[al_infierno]

That's the emblem of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/zelenskyy-nazi-iron-cross/

[SirAndrewD]

That's the emblem of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/zelenskyy-nazi-iron-cross/

As long as there are no skulls we're fine..

[Gusington]

Meanwhile, at clown camp...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61008292

I was wondering why Zhironovsky hadn't made more noise lately. Now I know.

[ArizonaTank]

Was doing some poking around whilst shopping for t-shirts. 

https://www.amazon.com/Support-Ukraine-President-Zelensky-Ukrainian/dp/B09V3GK6KB/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=590746072284&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001998&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=14041840941821078291&hvtargid=kwd-1641727548949&hydadcr=20669_9705450&keywords=president+zelensky+shirt&qid=1649260390&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G6Y52P2?_encoding=UTF8&customId=B07535YCL2

Interesting similarities.

Again with the Nazi thing?  You're aware the modern German Army uses a variation of the iron cross as its logo, correct?  And it's not uncommon for other militaries to use similar crosses. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by pointing this out.

Isn't the cross just a variety of Maltese Cross that goes back to the Hospitallers and the Crusades?

[SirAndrewD]

Isn't the cross just a variety of Maltese Cross that goes back to the Hospitallers and the Crusades?

Not exactly.  It's a cross pattée.  A Christian cross similar to the Maltese but with flat edges. 

It has a long history of use in heraldry in Europe, including Germany and a variant of it is the Iron Cross. 

It's very common in Eastern European monarchies with its use going back to the 1100's. 

France, Russia, Poland, Portugal, Spain and Georgia use it commonly in heraldry.

The Victoria Cross and Navy Cross both use the cross pattée

Ukraine puts theirs in red and has the trident of Vladimir the Great in the center.

[ArizonaTank]

Interesting video on WWII vintage small arms used in the War in Ukraine.

and yes...the Mosin-Nagant is still a thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDd8NFftuXI

[Dammit Carl!]

I saw too recent reports of Poland sending those much discussed MiGs...just wondering how.

Couldn't they just be flown in by "volunteers?" With Poland bordering Ukraine, think it'd be a simple matter to filter in the MiGs by ones and twos to a spot just over the border at low altitude, and zip the "volunteers," home by bus. 

[GDS_Starfury]

Here is the twitter thread on the casualties
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1511399902265360385

this guy sites Oryx as one of his sources and Ive mentioned him before.  his count only uses multi-point confirmation and is an excellent baseline number for both sides.
and yes Gus, it brings a smile to my face.

[Gusington]

I knew it would.

[MengJiao]

I saw too recent reports of Poland sending those much discussed MiGs...just wondering how.

Couldn't they just be flown in by "volunteers?" With Poland bordering Ukraine, think it'd be a simple matter to filter in the MiGs by ones and twos to a spot just over the border at low altitude, and zip the "volunteers," home by bus.

  Or Ukrainian pilots could fly them out of Poland or whereever to airfields in Ukraine.

[FarAway Sooner]

Do we have actual confirmation that those Polish jets are now in the Ukrainian AF?  The initial objections that were raised were threefold:

1) The Polish planes needed to have retooled avionics to be useful for the Ukrainian AF.  (this is technically doable, but takes time)
2) The Polish planes were similar--but not identical--to what the Ukrainian pilots were trained on.  While the training curve here wasn't extraordinary, as one former US fighter pilot said, "Is there anywhere in Ukrainian air space that's safe for a pilot to get 5 hours of training time in the cockpit?"
3) NATO had concerns about flying planes out of NATO airbases into contested Ukrainian air space.  This was why the Poles didn't want to do it initially (and why the US subsequently balked at the Polish invitation to have them fly out of Ramstein AFB).

If those planes are now in the Ukrainian AF, my guess is that they've had time to work out the first two problems, and ongoing Russian atrocities have diminished NATO's concerns about the 3rd problem.  The fog of war rolls on... 

[MengJiao]

Do we have actual confirmation that those Polish jets are now in the Ukrainian AF?  The initial objections that were raised were threefold:

1) The Polish planes needed to have retooled avionics to be useful for the Ukrainian AF.  (this is technically doable, but takes time)
2) The Polish planes were similar--but not identical--to what the Ukrainian pilots were trained on.  While the training curve here wasn't extraordinary, as one former US fighter pilot said, "Is there anywhere in Ukrainian air space that's safe for a pilot to get 5 hours of training time in the cockpit?"
3) NATO had concerns about flying planes out of NATO airbases into contested Ukrainian air space.  This was why the Poles didn't want to do it initially (and why the US subsequently balked at the Polish invitation to have them fly out of Ramstein AFB).

If those planes are now in the Ukrainian AF, my guess is that they've had time to work out the first two problems, and ongoing Russian atrocities have diminished NATO's concerns about the 3rd problem.  The fog of war rolls on...

  It seems like NATO has gone from being very worried about what the Russians might do next, to feeling a bit guilty or just plain bad or behind the curve or inept
about not doing more sooner for five or six reasons:
1) It seems like the Russians are just going to do whatever it is they are doing no matter what unless something literally stops them as in more or less blows up their stuff
2) Now that the Russians are apparently going to launch something resembling an actual offensive, blowing things up massively is kind of where things are now and NATO has
not given much in terms of heavy weapons to Ukraine (eg, armor, artillery, aircraft, air defense systems)
3) Ukraine is taking one for the team, right?  A team they aren't even on, exactly.  Thanks to Ukraine's fight,
NATO can pull itself together and maybe expand to cover Finland while the Russians are busy in Ukraine
4) NATO is worried Ukraine might find a way to get a deal with the Russians (and why not since NATO isn't doing enough)
5) NATO doesn't need all that old Soviet stuff anyway so why not dump it into the Ukraine?
6) letting the Russians get away with murder and so on (ie not giving Ukraine adequate support) might encourage the Russians to use chemical weapons or nukes since it looks like
NATO is not very responsive to anything if massive slaughter and hammering at cities for weeks is okay with NATO, so why not use chemical weapons or nukes?