Russia's War Against Ukraine

[GDS_Starfury]

I think NATO is still pretty damn worried about russian nukes.
they might only work at a 40% level but what western government wants to take a chance on that?
as much as it sucks, the path NATO and the US are taking is the best option at the moment.

[MengJiao]

I think NATO is still pretty damn worried about russian nukes.
they might only work at a 40% level but what western government wants to take a chance on that?
as much as it sucks, the path NATO and the US are taking is the best option at the moment.

   Finland is considering joining NATO and (of Course) Russia is threatening them with total destruction -- which I guess might be bad, but a) maybe not and   -- b) you might get that anyway if you aren't
in NATO and c) Once Finland is in NATO, aren't they safe from total destruction?  It's kind of a weird set of choices and the only thing the Russians have made clear is actually "Join NATO or die."

   https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/finland-joining-nato-means-destruction-of-their-country-russian-lawmaker/ar-AAVXCin?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=6fcb389404304fd58bf42f307b46c991

[Pete Dero]

^ What Russia is showing us is that while they are around in this form a stable peace in Europe has become impossible.

[Gusington]

It almost seems like Russia wants all of Europe to encricle and destroy it.

[acctingman]

It almost seems like Russia wants all of Europe to encricle and destroy it.

I'm ok with that

[Pete Dero]

It almost seems like Russia wants all of Europe to encricle and destroy it.

I'm ok with that

If it hadn't been for nuclear weapons, NATO could have been peacekeeping in Moscow by now.



https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-commander-screams-soldiers-take-26656082
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ukraine-butscha-soldaten-besprachen-graeueltaten-gegen-zivilisten-ueber-funk-a-9e01662c-aa7e-4828-bf6f-f662d9b6164e
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10694101/Take-f-king-Russian-commander-orders-soldiers-shoot-Mariupol-civilians.html

Der Spiegel reports that German intelligence obtained communications between Russian soldiers in which, among other things, they admit to gunning down a civilian on a bicycle—a shocking murder that was captured in aerial footage recorded by Ukraine's military while Russian forces controlled the town.

In another conversation, a Russian commander reportedly orders his subordinate, "First question the soldiers, then shoot them!"

Germany's Federal Intelligence Service reportedly presented audio of the communications to lawmakers on Wednesday. The communications are said to match the locations of bodies found in the town and suggest that such executions of civilians are taking place in other Ukrainian cities, namely in areas surrounding besieged Mariupol.
The killings are described as part of a "clear strategy" to terrify civilians into submission.

Russian mercenaries from the Wagner Group are suspected of taking part in the indiscriminate massacre of civilians, according to Der Spiegel.

Chilling new details on the slaughter of civilians were also provided by Bucha Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk on Thursday.
In a new interview with Deutsche Welle, he reveals that at least 90 percent of the 320 civilians killed were found with gunshot wounds, and not shrapnel injuries—meaning they were not simply caught up in shelling.


In a radio dispatch intercepted by Ukraine's SBU and published on the security service's official Facebook account, an unnamed soldier details the positions of non-combatants to nearby troops in a village near the southern port city.

His superior then demands: 'Take them all f**king out', before doubling down on his bloodcurdling instructions as the troop says that two people emerging from a nearby grove were dressed in 'civilian clothes'. The commander screams: 'Off them all, f**k!'

[Gusington]

Did these people see something they weren't supposed to, like the murder of other civilians? That's what it sounds like.

[Pete Dero]

Did these people see something they weren't supposed to, like the murder of other civilians? That's what it sounds like.

Just frustration with high losses and part of a plan to brake resistance by targeting the population.

And don't ignore Russian propaganda describing a major part of the people as Nazis and too far gone to be reeducated.

[MengJiao]

   Finland is considering joining NATO and (of Course) Russia is threatening them with total destruction -- which I guess might be bad, but a) maybe not and   -- b) you might get that anyway if you aren't
in NATO and c) Once Finland is in NATO, aren't they safe from total destruction?  It's kind of a weird set of choices and the only thing the Russians have made clear is actually "Join NATO or die."

   And, Oh no, the Ukrainians are not surrendering and maybe they will take back whatever the Russians have taken even in 2014:

  Russian official accuses Ukraine of changing demands since the 2 sides met in Istanbul
From CNN's Uliana Pavlova iand Martin Goillandeau

On Thursday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov accused Ukrainian negotiators of changing the most important provisions that both sides had agreed upon during Russia-Ukraine talks in Istanbul last month.

Lavrov said that a draft agreement presented on Wednesday by Ukrainian negotiators "showed a departure from the most important provisions fixed at the meeting in Istanbul," adding that the new Ukrainian draft agreement did not include an earlier proposal by Kyiv to exclude Crimea and Sebastopol from the future security guarantees Ukraine is demanding.

Lavrov also said Ukrainians suggested that "the problems of Crimea and Donbas should be brought to the meeting of the presidents of Russia and Ukraine," a proposal deemed "unacceptable" by Russia, as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has repeatedly stated that such a meeting is possible only after the cessation of hostilities.

"At the next stage, the Ukrainian side will certainly ask for the withdrawal of troops and will put forward new preconditions," Lavrov said.

According to the Russian Foreign Minister, the Ukrainian side has also changed its stance on a provision that Moscow could oppose any future military maneuvers involving foreign forces in Ukrainian territory.

Lavrov said that the inability to find a negotiated agreement with Ukraine "demonstrates the true intentions of Kyiv, its line to drag on and even make the negotiations fail, rejecting the agreements that had been found."

"We see this as a manifestation of the fact that the Kyiv regime is controlled by Washington and its allies, who are pushing President Zelensky to continue hostilities," he added.
Lavrov said the Russian delegation would "continue the negotiation process," promoting its draft agreement, which according to Lavrov "clearly and in full, sets out all the key positions and demands."

Lavrov did not reveal the details of that draft agreement.

   

[al_infierno]

Russian officials making eye-crossing statements that conflict with reality and only apply to some fantasy world while blaming everyone else for their failed invasion?  Must be a day ending in Y.

[MengJiao]

Russian officials making eye-crossing statements that conflict with reality and only apply to some fantasy world while blaming everyone else for their failed invasion?  Must be a day ending in Y.

  This thing about "negotiations" is really twisted.  For example, why shouldn't the Ukrainians put more trust in the USA than in Russia?  At least the USA isn't attacking them.

   For another -- why didn't the Russians make a deal back when they hadn't started blasting Ukraine to bits?  Plenty of nice deals could have been done about 3 or 4 weeks ago.  It's a bit
late now to threaten Ukraine, moreover, Ukraine probably scents blood -- maybe they can just gradually beat the Russians (seems unlikely, but I'm not Ukrainian) and get everything.

   For another -- the Russian position was a lot better before they launched this war.  That's pretty obvious.  So why not take a deal now?  Are the Russians really going to be that much better
off in a few weeks?  Possibly.  Will they end the war then?  Probably not because there's still no way Ukraine can trust them.  Will the Russians be better off in six weeks?  Who knows?
But why blame the Ukrainians for fighting on?  Given they have already been blasted and still can't trust the Russians and are getting some kind of support from NATO.

[al_infierno]

You nailed it.  The BS coming out of their mouths is so many layers deep that it can be difficult to elucidate just how much is wrong with what they're claiming.

Reminds me of the Sopranos quote.  "Some people are so far behind, they really think they're in the lead."

[Pete Dero]

At the next stage, the Ukrainian side will certainly ask for the withdrawal of troops

How dare they ask their country back

[MengJiao]

You nailed it.  The BS coming out of their mouths is so many layers deep that it can be difficult to elucidate just how much is wrong with what they're claiming.

Reminds me of the Sopranos quote.  "Some people are so far behind, they really think they're in the lead."

  And "consequences":

  Russia circulated note threatening "consequences" ahead of UN Human Rights Council vote, sources say
From CNN's Nima Elbagir and Barbara Arvanitidis in Lviv

Russia circulated a note to member states threatening "consequences" ahead of the vote for the US-led push to suspend Russia from the United Nations Human Rights Council, according to multiple sources at the council.

The note, shared with CNN, stated, "It is worth mentioning that not only support for such an initiative, but also an equidistant position in the vote (abstention or non-participation) will be considered as an unfriendly gesture."

The United Nations General Assembly voted to suspend Russia from the Human Rights Council during a meeting Thursday. The vote was 93 in favor of the move and 24 against the action, with 58 abstentions.

  So threatening even the abstainers...threatening 151 UN members with "consequences"...maybe not the most diplomatic move?  Especially since they have to finish administering "consequences" to
Ukraine and Finland and Estonia etc.etc.etc. befoe they can get to the other hundred or so.

[MengJiao]

At the next stage, the Ukrainian side will certainly ask for the withdrawal of troops

How dare they ask their country back

  And what's the endgame here?  Even if Russia eventually completely destroys and overruns and occupies Ukraine -- if they want the sanctions lifted, they will have to leave it all and probably
let whatever they leave behind join NATO.  So what is the point?  They can't even get a deal out of the Ukrainians anymore.  You'd think that would be a pretty clear message that they should never
have started this mess to begin with when even their main victim seems to think they can bully the Russians.