Russia's War Against Ukraine

[Jarhead0331]

Absolutely. But nobody really thought the Afghan National Army could or would fight the Taliban by themselves. That's why somebody should, and probably did, tell Washington all the equipment would be lost and needed to be moved or neutralized. However a great deal of equipment was still in American hands at the beginning of the collapse and should've been destroyed if nothing else.

And is, 'Grogpapism' a word too?

  Okay, so assuming one is going to leave (maybe that's the basic error-- you can't leave and expect the army to hang on but...assuming you are going to leave) when do you start blowing up or
removing the equipment that you have left with the army that you (erroneously or disingenuously ) think is going to be fighting the Taliban?  Apparently, the army collapsed really fast, but in any case
how do you as the exiting party start blowing up or removing the stuff you left for the army to fight with?

You just f*cking do it. That's how. American tax payers didn't write Afghanistan a blank check. They didn't agree to give Afghanistan a 16 billion dollar shopping spree...certainly not without some kind of quid pro quo and expectation that those in charge would be committed to standing for their own freedom, safety and control of their own country. You're not going to do your part? Screw you...give it back, you can't have it.

[GDS_Starfury]

both articles we posted roughed it out to around $7 billion, so wheres the $16 billion shopping spree coming from.
we mostly left old stuff behind that was either past its service life or close to it.
this kinda pertains to the Ukraine insofar as were giving them all of our oldest stocks of equipment and munitions.
thats a win win to me. our military gets new toys and they get to defend themselves.

[Jarhead0331]

both articles we posted roughed it out to around $7 billion, so wheres the $16 billion shopping spree coming from.
we mostly left old stuff behind that was either past its service life or close to it.
this kinda pertains to the Ukraine insofar as were giving them all of our oldest stocks of equipment and munitions.
thats a win win to me. our military gets new toys and they get to defend themselves.

You're absolutely right. 16 Billion is incorrect. What I meant to say, was 73 Billion, in reference to the total cost of military aid given to Afghanistan during the entire 20 year period of the war. I'll agree, for purposes of the discussion, that the amount of military aid actually abandoned in country to the Taliban had a "KBB" ballpark value of 7 Billion. The weapon systems were not past service life or close to it. I've outlined in detail the quantities of weapons left behind to the individual rifle and pistol. Does claiming it is ok because its  "old" really justify it in your view? Old weapons kill. I mean, you wouldn't argue that it was ok to leave 13 dead service members behind because some of them were close to EAS and at the end of their service lives would you?

In any event, I don't think the military aid situation in Ukraine is comparable to the fiasco in Afghanistan, nor will it ever be. The situation on the ground is very different.  To be sure, some could argue with merit that US aid should be limited, or not given at all, but that is not a position I would personally defend with any great zeal.

For the record though, not everything the US is giving to Ukraine is "old".  Is HIMARS old? What about the TOW systems? NASAMS? Phoenix, Switchblade and Puma drone systems? Scan Eagle? VAMPIRE? These are just the major systems, and they are all state-of-the-art. 

[GDS_Starfury]

the world is awash in small arms so I'm not to bothered by that.  the humvee thats been in country for 10 years and somehow survived isnt worth shipping back to the US for refurbishment.  and no, obviously people are not equipment.  thats a silly tangent to take.

Is HIMARS old? What about the TOW systems?

yes.  Himars has 12 years of active service now.  while the platform is relatively new the rockets are not.   the missiles we're giving them were built in the 80s and 90s.  I've mentioned before how the UAF have been using cluster munitions that we won't use anymore.  and the TOW... my guy, that's been around since 1970.  the current versions, IIRC, while command guided, are not wire guided.  the videos I've seen for that system have all trailed dual wires.  the rest of the kit you've listed is brand new but no where near as kinetic as Leo2a6's, F-16's and peer systems.

[GDS_Starfury]

TOW's:

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/tow-2-missile/

for fucks sake!  700000 built!

[JasonPratt]

Out of curiosity, because I'm too lazy to look it up, but not too lazy to ask someone else  :)) : how up to date are the Excalibur rounds being sent over? Those just started being used in Ukraine in the past three or maybe four weeks, from what I saw.

[GDS_Starfury]

I saw a video today of two tanks getting whacked by them.  both were aimed in on the engine deck from whatever drone.  the first tank got hit in the turret and wrecked, the second shell on the second target landed roughly 5 meters to the right.

[Sir Slash]

My recollection of the Afghan withdrawal was that when the Tallies launched their big offensive and Washington made it clear we weren't going to continue to provide the support the ANA needed, then the Afghan army headed for the hills. At that point the military advised the Admin. they wished to continue to keep a number of troops in country, 1,700 I think, in order to hold both Bagram AFB and Kabul AFB in order to provide for an orderly withdrawal and ensure all Americans and Afghan friendlies were gotten out.

It was the Admin. that nixed that idea insisting only a handful of troops remain forcing the military to abandon all that equipment at Bagram in order to hold Kabul. Perhaps a lot of it was old and broken but as we saw in JH's list, a lot was very modern stuff. That's why the Chinese sprinted in to get a look at as much as they could.

I would love it if our Congress would hold open hearings to find out who really did what and when and WHY. Unfortunately they seem so interested in investigating, 'Threats To Our Democracy' but not this one. Maybe the next one will be more investigatory.

[GDS_Starfury]

can we all agree that no matter how it went down it was going to be a shitshow?
is there any easy withdrawal from a country that doesnt want you there?
can we start a new thread about this spinoff instead of derailing this one?

[Jarhead0331]

can we all agree that no matter how it went down it was going to be a shitshow?

Why? For some reason, you still want to make excuses. If Trump was president when this happened, you'd be all over it like stink on shit. But it happened under the next admin, so you're all, "eh, it was only 7 billion and it was all old stuff anyway. Big deal."

You're blind if you can't see your own double standard.

is there any easy withdrawal from a country that doesnt want you there?

Easy? Perhaps not. Smart, well planned and lacking in utter incompetence, though? Yup.

can we start a new thread about this spinoff instead of derailing this one?

I agree, this has definitely crossed into separate topic material, but we're probably better off just leaving it alone and staying focused on Ukraine.

[Crossroads]

To get us back on topic, here's your proof whatever Russia does Belarus can do better. As in: I see your cope cage and raise you by our cope mesh (as it's too close to chassis to do anything good) and add a magic lantern to top this all off. Not sure if genie included.

I guess this says "all in".

Enjoy your FRIDAY!

https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1585756583870758912

[Dammit Carl!]

Really want to know what that shit is all about.

[Gusington]

It's a dark day when we want to get back to the 'normal Ukraine conversation.'

[GDS_Starfury]

[MengJiao]

Really want to know what that shit is all about.

  Burning thing on a pole?  Infrared decoy maybe?