Russia's War Against Ukraine

[GDS_Starfury]

[Crossroads]

Question for those folks on this board who know more about certain topics than I do:  Does it get cold enough in Ukraine that the Dnieper ever freezes over enough to get vehicles across?  Or even men?  And how much artillery does it take to shatter a frozen river?  Or do you just build a pontoon bridge on top of the ice?

I have a friend who traveled there quite a lot some ten years ago, asked this very same question a few weeks back. No, it does not properly freeze over, even though there's spells of cold then it thaws the next day, especially towards south where Kherson lays. Vehicles, definitively not. On foot, very much doubt but just maybe possible in certain areas for a quite limited time (or no, not really by foot either). 

[FarAway Sooner]

So how do engineers cross a semi-frozen river in the winter?  Too much ice for boats, you can't just build a pontoon bridge across a river in the face of enemy fire.  Maybe the answer is that you wait for the river to thaw and try to cross with boats. 

Or send across small teams on ice skates. 

[Gusington]

The woman in Star's pic above is definitely old enough to have lived through WWII in the same exact area. Hard to imagine.

[GDS_Starfury]

this is one of many reasons the Ukrainians arent in the mood to talk with russian scumbags.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1591477593202692096

[Skoop]

this is one of many reasons the Ukrainians arent in the mood to talk with russian scumbags.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1591477593202692096

That's heavy, that's why the 40 billion aid package is money well spent.  I think the mid term showed people care about Ukraine far more than trumps base thought.

[Jarhead0331]

this is one of many reasons the Ukrainians arent in the mood to talk with russian scumbags.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1591477593202692096

That's heavy, that's why the 40 billion aid package is money well spent.  I think the mid term showed people care about Ukraine far more than trumps base thought.

You think aid to Ukraine was a key issue in the midterm elections? lol.

[Skoop]

List shows no Ukraine on there unless that's under the foreign policy part.  But like I said money well spent in my book when you see a Ukrainian soldier running into the arms of his liberated grandmother.

[Sir Slash]

Would you feel the $40 Billion was well spent if a big chunk of it went into a crew of rich people's pockets instead of weapons to defend Ukraine? Or if a lot of those weapons ended-up in the hands of terrorists planning the next attack on NYC? Can anyone say for certain that they won't or haven't? I certainly hope we don't only have CNN & MSNBC looking into this.

[GDS_Starfury]

 ::)

but that isnt happening.  so whats your point?

[al_infierno]

Would you feel the $40 Billion was well spent if a big chunk of it went into a crew of rich people's pockets instead of weapons to defend Ukraine? Or if a lot of those weapons ended-up in the hands of terrorists planning the next attack on NYC? Can anyone say for certain that they won't or haven't? I certainly hope we don't only have CNN & MSNBC looking into this.

For the results we've been getting so far?  Yes, absolutely.  Hell, I bet every military budget in the world (including the US military) is getting siphoned by "rich people" (or probably just random assholes in the line of manufacturing/requisitioning/etc.)

Do you have any links to support this idea about Ukrainian arms falling into terrorist hands who are planning attacks on US soil?  Or did you pull that out of your ass to make a point?   

[GDS_Starfury]

just looking at the amount of lost soviet equipment leads to an overwhelming yes to that question.  the vaunted russian military has been laid bare to its utter failure and inability to be taken seriously.  priceless.  <:-)

[al_infierno]

And considering exactly 0 American servicemembers have been killed or wounded in action, I'd call that a rate!

[GDS_Starfury]

fuck russia! 

[FarAway Sooner]

I think it's reasonable to say that we'd be fools if we thought Ukraine was exempt from the sorts of profiteering that went on in every country in the world in WW II (including the USA, Britain, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union).  I'd be tickled pink if we don't end up reading about anything shady happening in Ukraine or any of those weapons making it into the wrong hands. 

But I'm not counting on that as a precondition for the money in Ukraine to be well spent.  Even if turns out that the people in charge of Ukraine are a bunch of crazy-ass kleptocrats, I still like the notion of setting a precedent where one crazy-ass kleptocrat nation can't willfully decide to invade another sovereign, crazy-ass kleptocrat nation.

It's fair to acknowledge that 40% of Republicans considered Russia an ally in 2018.  It's also fair to admit that 11 (?) Republican Senators voted against supplying weapons to Ukraine in the most recent vote.  Of course, looking at that recent vote, it also means that 39 Republican Senators voted in favor of supplying weapons to Ukraine. 

We shouldn't confuse calls with trying to ensure that weapons get used correctly with not wanting to send any weapons at all.  If we'd been more successful trying to make sure weapons exports got into the right hands in Vietnam in the 1970s, or in Afghanistan in the 1980s, or in Afghanistan again in the 2010s, the world would be a safer place.

We're not really disagreeing here, so much as attributing bogus arguments to each other.