This kind of affects 40k computer games (the article is a pcgamer one) as well as tabletop and any Cavill movies or shows amazon may have in the works. It seems that anybody who likes rules based orders and status quo is fair game to have their character stereotyped and assasinated. I could not believe the title of this article.
Repressive tolerance seems to be the name of the game.
https://www.pcgamer.com/games/strategy/warhammer-40000-has-slightly-more-women-in-it-now-and-the-neckbeards-arent-happy/
Infuriating.
Wokeness revels in making peoples' lives miserable with their pompous virtue signaling.
For the record I do not have a neckbeard. But I do love me some 40k. Maybe on a more casual level, but I still do love it.
I think there is a place for diversity that fits neatly within the existing lore. For instance, the Salamanders are black. The White Scars are Asian/Mongolian. The Adepta Sororitas are all, of course, women. Many agents within the Officio Assassinorum and Inquisition are women, as are many sanctioned psykers, Rogue Traders and navigators. This works with the lore without feeling forced or imposed. Once they start changing lore to benefit notions of diversity and inclusion is where you piss people off (no, not just the "neckbeards") and start diluting the lore that is organic and "believable" and that has been developed over many decades at this point. It seems totally unnecessary and forced.
Bad for the entire IP in my view.
I don't get what the big deal is. GW rewrites 40K lore all the time. They completely rewrote Necron lore, so why does it matter if they update one of the factions to have women or whatever?
As for the article, seems like your typical "journalist" looking to rile people up. Life is too short to get angry about dumb stuff like this.
I agree that life is too short to get upset about dumb stuff like this however...
Notice how clever they are to immediately de-humanize the complainers before they even get a chance to complain by calling them neckbeards. A tactic that genocidal maniacs use when it comes to making the target seem less than human so that it makes it easier to wipe out, or in this case ridicule. Same tactics.
By playing this off and saying "it's no big deal" gives these oppressors a green light to continue this sort of tactic. Look at what they called SW fans who criticized Disney Star Wars. They called them "man babies" in an attempt to tell the rest of the uneducated masses oh look at the poor cry babies who don't like our version of Star Wars.
They can all go fornicate under consent of king themselves.
If we don't resist this or at least call out evil when we see it it will only continue to get worse and worse.
I get your frustration, this tactic of painting dissenters as "neckbeards" or "manbabies" or whatever is extremely obnoxious. It's a lazy and toxic way to shut down discussion. Same thing happened with True Detective Night Country and, like you said, Disney, or really any IP where white men are replaced or recasted by women or POC. It's just a lazy way to shut down criticism for other creative choices with an easy shield that picks up traction on Twitter, because inevitably there *are* a few asshats who whip out a full-on swastika and make everybody else look bad.
But equating this to genocide and oppression just seems like a ridiculous hyperbole. This is a luxury hobby we're talking about, not some basic human need that spells life or death for those who are excluded. Yeah, the article is stupid and intentionally incendiary, but it's pretty tame IMO as far as "dehumanizing a target people to make them seem easier to wipe out" goes. It's pretty inoffensive ribbing, even with the "neckbeard" jab considered (which interestingly only shows up in the headline, presumably for clicks).
To me it just seems like an IP owner doing what they want with their IP, some fans getting upset about the changes (which is valid), and asshole "journalists" running with the discussion to stir up controversy for clicks. I don't see any of this as "evil," just a mixture of petty, toxic, and silly.
True Detective: Night Country was amazing!!
Quote from: Gusington on April 22, 2024, 04:34:26 PMTrue Detective: Night Country was amazing!!
Haha, that's the big difference between this example and Disney. TD: Night Country was actually high quality. The backlash to that I think mostly came from Nic Pizzolato throwing a public tantrum. I get the distaste because Night Country was a veeeeery different creative beast from the previous seasons of True Detective, but yeah it was actually high quality in its own right.
It never even crossed my mind that they replaced the male characters with females from season to season in True Detective. I didn't even think about it or care.
I loved the first season, enjoyed the second, did not watch the third...but the little tidbits I got of Night Country before it launched really had me interested and I did not, until this thread, think about male or female protagonists.
I guess I am old fashioned.
I think of that as being "normal."
Quote from: al_infierno on April 22, 2024, 04:02:37 PMI get your frustration, this tactic of painting dissenters as "neckbeards" or "manbabies" or whatever is extremely obnoxious. It's a lazy and toxic way to shut down discussion. Same thing happened with True Detective Night Country and, like you said, Disney, or really any IP where white men are replaced or recasted by women or POC. It's just a lazy way to shut down criticism for other creative choices with an easy shield that picks up traction on Twitter, because inevitably there *are* a few asshats who whip out a full-on swastika and make everybody else look bad.
But equating this to genocide and oppression just seems like a ridiculous hyperbole. This is a luxury hobby we're talking about, not some basic human need that spells life or death for those who are excluded. Yeah, the article is stupid and intentionally incendiary, but it's pretty tame IMO as far as "dehumanizing a target people to make them seem easier to wipe out" goes. It's pretty inoffensive ribbing, even with the "neckbeard" jab considered (which interestingly only shows up in the headline, presumably for clicks).
To me it just seems like an IP owner doing what they want with their IP, some fans getting upset about the changes (which is valid), and asshole "journalists" running with the discussion to stir up controversy for clicks. I don't see any of this as "evil," just a mixture of petty, toxic, and silly.
I think what W8 is talking about is "the bigger picture". There are all these small cultural battles being waged and viewed independently, many of them seem irrelevant, petty or meaningless. But when added together and viewed as a whole, it can look quite disconcerting to many and feel overwhelming.
It sort of reminds me of this lawsuit I read about today. Some guy sued Cinemark because their 24fl soda cups actually only hold 22fl. So, he found a lawyer to sue the film giant over deceptive marketing practices and for charging a premium for something that they are not actually providing to customers. Viewed from the perspective of one guy who received 2fl less than what was advertised on a cup (particularly when you can get a free refill) it seems ridiculous. But when viewed from the perspective of millions of transactions, you can see the impact such deceptive practices could have.
In any event, I find myself someplace in the middle. It's not a big deal, but I think it was a stupid decision, given my comments above. There are ways to include in 40K without alienating others.
Well I for one am glad that culture warriors like Critical Drinker are on the frontline defending us from the evils of... uh... women and black people in media, or something?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 22, 2024, 09:23:30 AMI think there is a place for diversity that fits neatly within the existing lore. For instance, the Salamanders are black. The White Scars are Asian/Mongolian. The Adepta Sororitas are all, of course, women. Many agents within the Officio Assassinorum and Inquisition are women, as are many sanctioned psykers, Rogue Traders and navigators. This works with the lore without feeling forced or imposed. Once they start changing lore to benefit notions of diversity and inclusion is where you piss people off (no, not just the "neckbeards") and start diluting the lore that is organic and "believable" and that has been developed over many decades at this point. It seems totally unnecessary and forced.
Bad for the entire IP in my view.
I agree.
Quote from: Gusington on April 22, 2024, 09:17:14 AMFor the record I do not have a neckbeard. But I do love me some 40k. Maybe on a more casual level, but I still do love it.
what does your 5 o'clock shadow identify as?
I think to a certain degree it has nothing to do with female space marines and more to do with meeting up with your friends at a club or a garage and getting away from all the shit that compulsory diversity and woke-ism brings in an average working day and all the other crap that comes with real life because you've come to play soldiers to get away from all that and here in the microcosm of 40k it didn't exist and it was you and your army and your friends and now it's invading that bit of peace and quiet you had from the world
Don't get me wrong - I'm neither for or against - you do you over there and I'll do me over here
Like the vegans of this world - you can do that and I'll eat meat but don't be a dick and stand outside my restaurant calling me a flesh eating murderer
As I get older I realise the best most peaceful form of inclusivity is not to include any fucker at all
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 03:15:59 AMI think to a certain degree it has nothing to do with female space marines and more to do with meeting up with your friends at a club or a garage and getting away from all the shit that compulsory diversity and woke-ism brings in an average working day and all the other crap that comes with real life because you've come to play soldiers to get away from all that and here in the microcosm of 40k it didn't exist and it was you and your army and your friends and now it's invading that bit of peace and quiet you had from the world
Don't get me wrong - I'm neither for or against - you do you over there and I'll do me over here
Like the vegans of this world - you can do that and I'll eat meat but don't be a dick and stand outside my restaurant calling me a flesh eating murderer
As I get older I realise the best most peaceful form of inclusivity is not to include any fucker at all
+1
And i would note that plants are people, too.
It's just lazy, and being imposed by stockholder requirements. Instead of introducing a creative narrative reason that this has started happening (like revising the backstories for the Necrons and Eldar), GM opted for "always were female Custodes."
In fact there had been for a while, the Sisters of Silence. But that wasn't good enough, I guess?
It could make sense enough: these are high ranking children of nobles being put through the process; although the genetic modification steps still seem to be based on originally male genetic material, so... isn't that why the Sisters of Battle (Adeptas Soroitas) can't be Space Marines? But they do very respectably well with what they can do (and narratively tend to overcompensate, which is good dramatic coloring.) So this is basically saying, hey, all you who like the Sisters, surprise, they could have been real Space Marines the whole time and always could have been, but aren't for no reason, so there?
Again, it's just sloppy for depressing reasons, to please people who don't really care about the franchise property as such (like Blackrock and Vanguard).
Quote from: solops on April 23, 2024, 05:18:01 AMAnd i would note that plants are people, too.
People who like to go WAAAAAGGGHHH! :cool:
My favorite humorous comment on one of the video threads I've seen, is that Tyranids have been predominately 'female' for a while, and no one cares!
At the end of the day, as grogs, don't we just want everyone to stfu and go away anyway? As long as people play nice who really cares. I do recognize the value of balance that JH is talking about above in addition to what 'Geek mentioned but as I age...I just want everyone to stfu, calm down and chill. Go have an edible or something. I am at the end of me caring about the entire 'us vs. them' dichotomy, which this boils down to basically.
'Can't we all just get along?'
Quote from: Gusington on April 23, 2024, 07:05:49 AMAt the end of the day, as grogs, don't we just want everyone to stfu and go away anyway? As long as people play nice who really cares. I do recognize the value of balance that JH is talking about above in addition to what 'Geek mentioned but as I age...I just want everyone to stfu, calm down and chill. Go have an edible or something. I am at the end of me caring about the entire 'us vs. them' dichotomy, which this boils down to basically.
'Can't we all just get along?'
In a way that was the essence of my post - on the flip side of your peace and harmony everywhere is my I don't care what you're doing as long as it's over there
But occasionally my piss boils when I read in a few comments sections that there are people who don't even know what the franchise is never mind the lore who are just jumping on the woke wagon as it rumbles by - 'there's something without women in it?????'
By their own admission they've never played, never will, but it's there to be protested against so protest they must
I hope one day they put all their energy into something they truly don't understand that is so deplorable and despicable to be a part of just so they can say there now were included and then go - fuck!
Something like stars men only mankini wearing painting and decorators club
At the end of the day, it isn't going to affect me in the slightest if I want to fire up the original EA Space Hulk on DosBox, or the latest build of Ultimate Apocalypse on Soulstorm, or finally catch up with that fleet management game I've owned since whenever, or any of the umpteen 40K games I own. It's just intrusive for no good organic lore reason. Like if I bought 25% of GW stock and insisted they start introducing actual trinitarian Christian theology into their cosmology instead of only borrowing its bling for flavor: fans (even the significant number of Christian ones!) would rightly complain that I should save that for my own fanfic.
That said, I was listening to orthodox hymns from various cultures while working on project quotes this morning, and suddenly realized the most important and epic "neckbeards" in the actual game lore would VERY MUCH INSIST that Adeptas Sororitas are not and cannot be Astartes. With literal flaming of dissenters as heretics. :Nerd:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 22, 2024, 10:05:26 PMI think what W8 is talking about is "the bigger picture". There are all these small cultural battles being waged and viewed independently, many of them seem irrelevant, petty or meaningless. But when added together and viewed as a whole, it can look quite disconcerting to many and feel overwhelming.
:Applause:
You understand me well.
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 07:24:05 AMI hope one day they put all their energy into something they truly don't understand that is so deplorable and despicable to be a part of just so they can say there now were included and then go - fuck!
You mean, like "Queers for Palestine"? :idiot2:
Quote from: Gusington on April 23, 2024, 07:05:49 AM'Can't we all just get along?'
*throws brick at Gus.*
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 03:15:59 AMI think to a certain degree it has nothing to do with female space marines and more to do with meeting up with your friends at a club or a garage and getting away from all the shit that compulsory diversity and woke-ism brings in an average working day and all the other crap that comes with real life because you've come to play soldiers to get away from all that and here in the microcosm of 40k it didn't exist and it was you and your army and your friends and now it's invading that bit of peace and quiet you had from the world
Don't get me wrong - I'm neither for or against - you do you over there and I'll do me over here
Like the vegans of this world - you can do that and I'll eat meat but don't be a dick and stand outside my restaurant calling me a flesh eating murderer
As I get older I realise the best most peaceful form of inclusivity is not to include any fucker at all
What doesn't make sense about this is why diversity and inclusion is this self-evidently abhorrent thing that must be "kept out" of a gaming space. Is play time really ruined because GW decided one faction is slightly more diverse? Or if the shoe was on the other foot, would anyone be here crying the blues because a faction became less diverse? I doubt it.
At what point does the topic of diversity go from "it's OK to accept women and queer people in our hobby" to "oh my god, this is FORCED WOKE ISM and play time is ruined!" Because to me it seems entirely arbitrary.
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 03:15:59 AMyou've come to play soldiers to get away from all that and here in the microcosm of 40k it didn't exist and it was you and your army and your friends and now it's invading that bit of peace and quiet you had from the world
This is key to why I get so upset about this stuff. Can't I be left alone to enjoy my toy soldiers in peace and quiet?
Also, forgive me for mentioning this, but remember, the enemy seeks to kill, steal, and destroy. This is but one small example of that manifestation. See, although I don't play WH40K miniatures, I'm still upset by this issue. I got angry and let the enemy win with respect to his desire for destruction. But I do enjoy playing my games and if I had some plastic toy soldiers I would play with them as well despite my middle age.
I think a lot of gamers just want to be left alone and allowed to play their games in peace sans the controversies of this stupid real life.
Quote from: al_infierno on April 23, 2024, 12:07:46 PMQuote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 03:15:59 AMI think to a certain degree it has nothing to do with female space marines and more to do with meeting up with your friends at a club or a garage and getting away from all the shit that compulsory diversity and woke-ism brings in an average working day and all the other crap that comes with real life because you've come to play soldiers to get away from all that and here in the microcosm of 40k it didn't exist and it was you and your army and your friends and now it's invading that bit of peace and quiet you had from the world
Don't get me wrong - I'm neither for or against - you do you over there and I'll do me over here
Like the vegans of this world - you can do that and I'll eat meat but don't be a dick and stand outside my restaurant calling me a flesh eating murderer
As I get older I realise the best most peaceful form of inclusivity is not to include any fucker at all
What doesn't make sense about this is why diversity and inclusion is this self-evidently abhorrent thing that must be "kept out" of a gaming space. Is play time really ruined because GW decided one faction is slightly more diverse? Or if the shoe was on the other foot, would anyone be here crying the blues because a faction became less diverse? I doubt it.
At what point does the topic of diversity go from "it's OK to accept women and queer people in our hobby" to "oh my god, this is FORCED WOKE ISM and play time is ruined!" Because to me it seems entirely arbitrary.
People are still entitled to make a choice - play games that include diversity, play games that don't
But the people that chose to play a game that didn't which is well within their right have now had the rules changed, lore changed and game changed to make sure the game without diversity they chose is now been made to include it because some people think they shouldn't get to a play a game that doesn't include it
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 03:36:02 PMQuote from: al_infierno on April 23, 2024, 12:07:46 PMQuote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 03:15:59 AMI think to a certain degree it has nothing to do with female space marines and more to do with meeting up with your friends at a club or a garage and getting away from all the shit that compulsory diversity and woke-ism brings in an average working day and all the other crap that comes with real life because you've come to play soldiers to get away from all that and here in the microcosm of 40k it didn't exist and it was you and your army and your friends and now it's invading that bit of peace and quiet you had from the world
Don't get me wrong - I'm neither for or against - you do you over there and I'll do me over here
Like the vegans of this world - you can do that and I'll eat meat but don't be a dick and stand outside my restaurant calling me a flesh eating murderer
As I get older I realise the best most peaceful form of inclusivity is not to include any fucker at all
What doesn't make sense about this is why diversity and inclusion is this self-evidently abhorrent thing that must be "kept out" of a gaming space. Is play time really ruined because GW decided one faction is slightly more diverse? Or if the shoe was on the other foot, would anyone be here crying the blues because a faction became less diverse? I doubt it.
At what point does the topic of diversity go from "it's OK to accept women and queer people in our hobby" to "oh my god, this is FORCED WOKE ISM and play time is ruined!" Because to me it seems entirely arbitrary.
People are still entitled to make a choice - play games that include diversity, play games that don't
But the people that chose to play a game that didn't which is well within their right have now had the rules changed, lore changed and game changed to make sure the game without diversity they chose is now been made to include it because some people think they shouldn't get to a play a game that doesn't include it
"I specifically chose this game because it's not diverse, and the wokies ruined it by adding women" is a VERY bizarre way to frame your position on this issue. It's pretty much just dancing around the explicit argument that Warhammer SHOULD only be men (or straight or white or what have you) and any deviation from that is "against lore."
Like, if that's your take on the whole thing fair enough I guess, but you understand how that's not exactly beating the "sexist neckbeard" allegations, right?
There are clearly two perspectives here and I think its come to the part where guys on both sides are going to start talking past one another, so we're probably past the point of crossing over into RP territory.
That being said, if you guys want to continue the discussion and can continue to do so civilly, I'm willing to let the thread remain open. That means not suggesting that people who are against the change, regardless of their stated rationale, are "sexist neckbeards".
*throws another brick st Gus*
Quote from: al_infierno on April 23, 2024, 03:47:44 PMQuote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 03:36:02 PMQuote from: al_infierno on April 23, 2024, 12:07:46 PMQuote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 03:15:59 AMI think to a certain degree it has nothing to do with female space marines and more to do with meeting up with your friends at a club or a garage and getting away from all the shit that compulsory diversity and woke-ism brings in an average working day and all the other crap that comes with real life because you've come to play soldiers to get away from all that and here in the microcosm of 40k it didn't exist and it was you and your army and your friends and now it's invading that bit of peace and quiet you had from the world
Don't get me wrong - I'm neither for or against - you do you over there and I'll do me over here
Like the vegans of this world - you can do that and I'll eat meat but don't be a dick and stand outside my restaurant calling me a flesh eating murderer
As I get older I realise the best most peaceful form of inclusivity is not to include any fucker at all
What doesn't make sense about this is why diversity and inclusion is this self-evidently abhorrent thing that must be "kept out" of a gaming space. Is play time really ruined because GW decided one faction is slightly more diverse? Or if the shoe was on the other foot, would anyone be here crying the blues because a faction became less diverse? I doubt it.
At what point does the topic of diversity go from "it's OK to accept women and queer people in our hobby" to "oh my god, this is FORCED WOKE ISM and play time is ruined!" Because to me it seems entirely arbitrary.
People are still entitled to make a choice - play games that include diversity, play games that don't
But the people that chose to play a game that didn't which is well within their right have now had the rules changed, lore changed and game changed to make sure the game without diversity they chose is now been made to include it because some people think they shouldn't get to a play a game that doesn't include it
"I specifically chose this game because it's not diverse, and the wokies ruined it by adding women" is a VERY bizarre way to frame your position on this issue. It's pretty much just dancing around the explicit argument that Warhammer SHOULD only be men (or straight or white or what have you) and any deviation from that is "against lore."
Like, if that's your take on the whole thing fair enough I guess, but you understand how that's not exactly beating the "sexist neckbeard" allegations, right?
Really?
Tell me what's wrong with people choosing anything they choose to enjoy that doesn't include any minority or under represented group. Can they not? Should they not?
They didn't choose a game that wasn't specifically diverse - they chose a game that represented their interests up to and including 40 years ago when no one even cared or knew what diversity and woke meant and maybe up to a year ago still didn't but now enough people are willing to try and cancel you for not things must change
There are people of all colours and genders in warhammer - I think maybe what people like you and others don't understand is it is a game that primarily harkens back to or even begins when you're a child when no one gives a shit about diversity and inclusivity and it's just a game - a game now been used by adults to push their agendas
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 04:19:22 PMReally?
Tell me what's wrong with people choosing anything they choose to enjoy that doesn't include any minority or under represented group. Can they not? Should they not?
They didn't choose a game that wasn't specifically diverse - they chose a game that represented their interests up to and including 40 years ago when no one even cared or knew what diversity and woke meant and maybe up to a year ago still didn't but now enough people are willing to try and cancel you for not things must change
There are people of all colours and genders in warhammer - I think maybe what people like you and others don't understand is it is a game that primarily harkens back to or even begins when you're a child when no one gives a shit about diversity and inclusivity and it's just a game - a game now been used by adults to push their agendas
I was maybe being overly harsh, but my point is the whole "chose a game that's not diverse, got mad at added diversity" argument doesn't hold water for me. It sounds a lot to me like your typical "women and queers invading our spaces" type of dog whistle.
Quotegame that primarily harkens back to or even begins when you're a child when no one gives a shit about diversity and inclusivity and it's just a game
See, this is getting down to the disconnect here. For marginalized people like women, there's no "good old days where inclusivity wasn't a thing." Marginalized people recognize that they've been excluded from a very young age. Between "nerd" hobbies being overwhelmingly male dominated in the first place, and a toxic subset of 40K fans who are way too enthusiastic about the Imperium and exterminatus and what have you, it's no surprise that the fandom can be perceived as unwelcoming to those who don't conform to your typical "nerd" archetype.
Somehow, attempts to make the media itself more inclusive are construed as some kind of "agenda" because they dare pose uncomfortable questions about bigotry and inclusivity in a space meant for fun and entertainment. It's easy for me or you to shrug it off and say "it's just a game" when we've never personally faced bigotry in this space for being the "wrong" type of person.
I just don't see what coherent "agenda" is being pushed here except... women should be included in stuff? Is that really such a horrible "agenda" to push for?
Nobody I've read, spoken to or experienced has ever said women are not welcome in the hobby - I'm unsure whether facts are deliberately been distorted - the whole furore and storm in a teacup has nothing to do with women playing games or girls playing space marines - it's about a movement supposedly representing women who insist that exclusively male toys and fiction are made to include females
And then we're right back to female James Bond
Female Jesus
Female 'name your male dominated subject in history'
I'm in a very privileged place - I don't fucking care - but I understand why people are getting upset
Why isn't the dictator in your game a woman?
Why is the player assumed to be a man with a wife?
Because that's what you wrote based on your preferences
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 04:57:53 PMNobody I've read, spoken to or experienced has ever said women are not welcome in the hobby
That's like saying "nobody I've ever spoken to has personally encountered racism" as a counter-argument to racism. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are tons of examples of people being excluded from all kinds of nerd hobbies (yes, even Warhammer) if you care to look for it.
Quotewho insist that exclusively male toys and fiction are made to include females
And here's precisely where you're wrong. Warhammer is not an "exclusively male toy and fiction." All "guy media" has always appealed to women as much as it has to men. That's precisely why there's been a push in recent years for this type of media to be more inclusive and representative of its audience, and people like you don't seem to see past your own personal experiences with the hobby.
QuoteI'm in a very privileged place - I don't fucking care
This applies so much more than you realize. Yes, I know you're privileged and don't care. That's what this whole argument has been about!
QuoteWhy isn't the dictator in your game a woman?
Why does the dictator in my game need to be a woman? If you want to talk about female representation in my game, we can talk about it. There are multiple major female characters in the game, including the PC's wife and daughters. The in-game society expects them to fit traditional female roles, because the world is intentionally regressive, but they still have agency in the story and can affect the outcomes of major events depending on their choices. Also, while she's a minor character, there's an explicitly more "feminist" character in Arletta Menator, who embodies the "badass action chick" trope as a contrast to the other women in the game.
The Great Leader easily could have been a woman, and it wouldn't have changed much, but having him be a man is IMO a better fit for the assumptions that go along with the "eastern european dictator" archetype.
As for the protagonist, no assumptions are being made about the player. Many games have a pre-defined protagonist, including Visual Novels. If someone doesn't want to play the game because they don't identify as a straight man with a wife, that's fine. But I made that choice primarily out of convenience, because making the protagonist inclusive of different traits like being a woman, being gay, etc. would require an insane amount of work rewriting the entire game multiple times. Not at all comparable to saying a faction in the lore can now include women if they want.
Quote from: al_infierno on April 23, 2024, 05:13:15 PMQuote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 04:57:53 PMNobody I've read, spoken to or experienced has ever said women are not welcome in the hobby
That's like saying "nobody I've ever spoken to has personally encountered racism" as a counter-argument to racism. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are tons of examples of people being excluded from all kinds of nerd hobbies (yes, even Warhammer) if you care to look for it.
Quotewho insist that exclusively male toys and fiction are made to include females
And here's precisely where you're wrong. Warhammer is not an "exclusively male toy and fiction." All "guy media" has always appealed to women as much as it has to men. That's precisely why there's been a push in recent years for this type of media to be more inclusive and representative of its audience, and people like you don't seem to see past your own personal experiences with the hobby.
QuoteI'm in a very privileged place - I don't fucking care
This applies so much more than you realize. Yes, I know you're privileged and don't care. That's what this whole argument has been about!
QuoteWhy isn't the dictator in your game a woman?
Why does the dictator in my game need to be a woman? If you want to talk about female representation in my game, we can talk about it. There are multiple major female characters in the game, including the PC's wife and daughters. The in-game society expects them to fit traditional female roles, because the world is intentionally regressive, but they still have agency in the story and can affect the outcomes of major events depending on their choices. Also, while she's a minor character, there's an explicitly more "feminist" character in Arletta Menator, who embodies the "badass action chick" trope as a contrast to the other women in the game.
The Great Leader easily could have been a woman, and it wouldn't have changed much, but having him be a man is IMO a better fit for the assumptions that go along with the "eastern european dictator" archetype.
I'm sure you want to chose the wrong words to form an argument just because you want an argument
You're going to argue that space marines aren't exclusively male, that the 60 odd books aren't mainly male characters? Because you are wrong Because up until last week they were - you seem intent on arguing who gets to play the hobby - no one is arguing that - there is not one single obstacle to a girl/woman playing this hobby
I'm sure it makes sense for space marines to be men in the authors eyes but you know, it's just a better fit
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 04:57:53 PMAnd then we're right back to female James Bond
Explain to me why this idea is wrong? What is it that really upsets people about this idea?
Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 05:31:04 PMYou're going to argue that space marines aren't exclusively male, that the 60 odd books aren't mainly male characters? Because you are wrong Because up until last week they were
Just because the characters are primarily male doesn't mean it's a male-only hobby. Many women love Predator despite the fact that the only female character in that movie is basically a damsel in distress. You don't seem to be understanding my general point that these properties, regardless of what gender is depicted, have ALWAYS appealed to both genders, and attempts at adding more women to these IPs is simply an attempt to be more reflective of the general audience.
Also, GW have in fact made female space marine miniatures in the past, and stated that they stick to making men for primarily logistical reasons, not for lore reasons.
Quotethere is not one single obstacle to a girl/woman playing this hobby
Again, this is where you're wrong and where I'd encourage maybe listening to other peoples' experiences in the hobby. Not every woman will face obstacles like sexist assholes, but many do. There are absolute TONS of bad actors in male-dominated hobbies that, whether intentionally or not, make the space unsafe or uncomfortable for women.
It's not wro
Quote from: Father Ted on April 23, 2024, 05:42:19 PMQuote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 04:57:53 PMAnd then we're right back to female James Bond
Explain to me why this idea is wrong? What is it that really upsets people about this idea?
[/quotQuote from: Father Ted on April 23, 2024, 05:42:19 PMQuote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2024, 04:57:53 PMAnd then we're right back to female James Bond
Explain to me why this idea is wrong? What is it that really upsets people about this idea?
Not a clue - it doesn't upset me
Alright, against my better judgment, I tried and as per usual, I got ignored.
Locked until further notice.