Russia's War Against Ukraine

[Sir Slash]

It's also easy to forget that Zelensky has a mammoth task on his hands trying to rid his country of the rampant corruption present when he came to power while defending his people from conquest and invasion. I don't know if another could do better or even close to as well. Still History is full of well-meaning leaders who promise to give up absolute power, not that Zelensky has absolute power, after the crisis is over. And never do. 

[Jarhead0331]

It's also easy to forget that Zelensky has a mammoth task on his hands trying to rid his country of the rampant corruption present when he came to power while defending his people from conquest and invasion. I don't know if another could do better or even close to as well. Still History is full of well-meaning leaders who promise to give up absolute power, not that Zelensky has absolute power, after the crisis is over. And never do. 

...and he and his government have undertaken substantial efforts to combat the corruption, but yes, in order to do so, it has also had to increase and consolidate its authority and power. I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Skoop]

So if the US was invaded by a foreign power would you not expect marshal law enforced and other drastic measures employed in a drastic situation ?

We haven't so we wouldn't know what it's like to live in country with war actively going on.

When this is over, I'd expect to be more scrutinizing over Zelenzky's domestic affairs.  Don't forget that Russian sympathizers were deep into Ukraine because of the commonality.  Just look at the beef they had over the Orthodox Church.

 

[Jarhead0331]

So if the US was invaded by a foreign power would you not expect marshal law enforced and other drastic measures employed in a drastic situation ?

We haven't so we wouldn't know what it's like to live in country with war actively going on.

When this is over, I'd expect to be more scrutinizing over Zelenzky's domestic affairs.  Don't forget that Russian sympathizers were deep into Ukraine because of the commonality.  Just look at the beef they had over the Orthodox Church.

 

No, I wouldn't. We have a Constitution. The rights of American citizens don't get suspended during times of war.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[GDS_Starfury]

 

[bobarossa]

No, I wouldn't. We have a Constitution. The rights of American citizens don't get suspended during times of war.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Umm, tell that to the Japanese Americans in ww2.  Lots of rights got suspended during Civil War also.

[Jarhead0331]

No, I wouldn't. We have a Constitution. The rights of American citizens don't get suspended during times of war.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Umm, tell that to the Japanese Americans in ww2.  Lots of rights got suspended during Civil War also.

I didn't say it hasn't happened. I said I don't expect it to. It is unlawful. And to just "accept" that it happens is unAmerican and will lead to it happening again.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

[GDS_Starfury]

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

keep this in mind when thinking about this conflict and who deserves our help.

[GDS_Starfury]

https://kyivindependent.com/national/battle-of-bakhmut-ukrainian-soldiers-worry-russians-begin-to-taste-victory

[MengJiao]

No, I wouldn't. We have a Constitution. The rights of American citizens don't get suspended during times of war.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Umm, tell that to the Japanese Americans in ww2.  Lots of rights got suspended during Civil War also.

I didn't say it hasn't happened. I said I don't expect it to. It is unlawful. And to just "accept" that it happens is unAmerican and will lead to it happening again.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

  Have you looked at the legal side of how the ex-confederate states were "reconstructed"?  I think the US would get a democracy rating less than that of Ukraine for the Reconstruction period after 1867.

[Jarhead0331]

No, I wouldn't. We have a Constitution. The rights of American citizens don't get suspended during times of war.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Umm, tell that to the Japanese Americans in ww2.  Lots of rights got suspended during Civil War also.

I didn't say it hasn't happened. I said I don't expect it to. It is unlawful. And to just "accept" that it happens is unAmerican and will lead to it happening again.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

  Have you looked at the legal side of how the ex-confederate states were "reconstructed"?  I think the US would get a democracy rating less than that of Ukraine for the Reconstruction period after 1867.

I'm not going to get into this here because I think we've already strayed too far off topic and a discussion on the Reconstruction Amendments to the Constitution would certainly push us further astray. It is a fascinating topic though.

I apologize for the role I've played in this diversion. 

[FarAway Sooner]

Diversions can help to break the monotony sometimes too.

I think it's realistic to suggest that the Ukrainians are NOT a safe, stable democracy.  Nor would they be if there had not been an invasion of the rest of their country last year.  Assuming they retain their sovereignty after the war with Russia, I think we owe them a lot of help reconstructing. 

But we also need to exercise A LOT of vigilance when we do that.  As we (hopefully) learned in Iraq and Afghanistan, democracy-building is extremely tough, particularly in societies with little history of it.

That said, I think we can agree that Russia needs to be opposed and "rooted against", if not slavishly or in a fanboy fashion.

[Jarhead0331]

Diversions can help to break the monotony sometimes too.

I think it's realistic to suggest that the Ukrainians are NOT a safe, stable democracy.  Nor would they be if there had not been an invasion of the rest of their country last year.  Assuming they retain their sovereignty after the war with Russia, I think we owe them a lot of help reconstructing. 

But we also need to exercise A LOT of vigilance when we do that.  As we (hopefully) learned in Iraq and Afghanistan, democracy-building is extremely tough, particularly in societies with little history of it.

That said, I think we can agree that Russia needs to be opposed and "rooted against", if not slavishly or in a fanboy fashion.

The dollar amounts for contracts that have already been promised for rebuilding are staggering. Someone will profit, but it is unlikely to be the people of Ukraine. Furthermore, until our own leaders, both civil and military are held accountable for their failures in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, no lessons will be learned, no changes will be implemented and the same tragic mistakes will continue to be made.

[MengJiao]

Diversions can help to break the monotony sometimes too.

I think it's realistic to suggest that the Ukrainians are NOT a safe, stable democracy.  Nor would they be if there had not been an invasion of the rest of their country last year.  Assuming they retain their sovereignty after the war with Russia, I think we owe them a lot of help reconstructing. 

But we also need to exercise A LOT of vigilance when we do that.  As we (hopefully) learned in Iraq and Afghanistan, democracy-building is extremely tough, particularly in societies with little history of it.

That said, I think we can agree that Russia needs to be opposed and "rooted against", if not slavishly or in a fanboy fashion.

The dollar amounts for contracts that have already been promised for rebuilding are staggering. Someone will profit, but it is unlikely to be the people of Ukraine. Furthermore, until our own leaders, both civil and military are held accountable for their failures in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, no lessons will be learned, no changes will be implemented and the same tragic mistakes will continue to be made.

Unless the Russians are stopped and driven out, we won't even get to the tragic mistake phase of tragic mistakes.

[Jarhead0331]

Diversions can help to break the monotony sometimes too.

I think it's realistic to suggest that the Ukrainians are NOT a safe, stable democracy.  Nor would they be if there had not been an invasion of the rest of their country last year.  Assuming they retain their sovereignty after the war with Russia, I think we owe them a lot of help reconstructing. 

But we also need to exercise A LOT of vigilance when we do that.  As we (hopefully) learned in Iraq and Afghanistan, democracy-building is extremely tough, particularly in societies with little history of it.

That said, I think we can agree that Russia needs to be opposed and "rooted against", if not slavishly or in a fanboy fashion.

The dollar amounts for contracts that have already been promised for rebuilding are staggering. Someone will profit, but it is unlikely to be the people of Ukraine. Furthermore, until our own leaders, both civil and military are held accountable for their failures in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, no lessons will be learned, no changes will be implemented and the same tragic mistakes will continue to be made.

Unless the Russians are stopped and driven out, we won't even get to the tragic mistake phase of tragic mistakes.

acknowledging the complexity and danger of the situation that lies beyond the immediate military confrontation is not to suggest that the Russians shouldn't be opposed and defeated. I think we've all agreed on this point many times over.