Russia's War Against Ukraine

[Jarhead0331]

Framing the war as one of 'democracy versus authoritarianism' is a tactic used by the US and Europe to raise the stakes of the war and to generate political and moral support. However, in my friend's view, regarding the war in Ukraine as a battle between democracy and authoritarianism is misleading, misguided and somewhat naive. In truth, Ukrainian blood is more probably being spilled to preserve the post-WWII international legal order. Whether one thinks this is actually good for democracy or not, I suppose, is subjective. 

  Aren't there lots of different ways to parse motivations in this war (or probably any war)? Some Ukrainians may be fighting for nationalistic or other ideological reasons that don't have much to do with more general concepts like liberal democracy.  Overall the Ukrainians might be fighting to preserve Ukraine (as a set of communities).  Some might be fighting because they are angry and aggrieved and want revenge.
Then there are many other motivations -- to deter Russia from pushing to control more territory for example...or indeed to
uphold the implied post-WWII standards that strongly discourage attacking neighboring sovereign entities except in self-defense (which the Russians keep bringing up as if the assault on Ukraine didn't look like...well a massive attack on a sovereign entity).
Defending liberal democracy probably isn't a primary motivation -- I think it's more the integrity of sovereign territories that causes the defensive reflex in the West.  The sequential take-overs of Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland and so on by Germany, and swathes of Finland, Moldavia and Poland by Russia at the beginning of WWII that provides the basic fear that drives the West, maybe even unconsciously

I'm not really talking about the average Ukrainian on the ground. I can assure you, most are fighting for their lives, their families and their homes. That is common in all wars. There are few idealists in fox holes.  I'm talking about the political and business special interests that are fighting to preserve the world order by encouraging the struggle at the macro level through claims, in part, that the war is one to preserve Democracy against authoritarianism.

[al_infierno]

This may be a naive view, but even if Ukraine were themselves an authoritarian dictatorship, I still see battling Russia and making them bleed to be for the betterment of liberal democracies everywhere.  Though I can agree that "Democracy vs Authoritarianism" is an oversimplification.

[MengJiao]

Framing the war as one of 'democracy versus authoritarianism' is a tactic used by the US and Europe to raise the stakes of the war and to generate political and moral support. However, in my friend's view, regarding the war in Ukraine as a battle between democracy and authoritarianism is misleading, misguided and somewhat naive. In truth, Ukrainian blood is more probably being spilled to preserve the post-WWII international legal order. Whether one thinks this is actually good for democracy or not, I suppose, is subjective. 

  Aren't there lots of different ways to parse motivations in this war (or probably any war)? Some Ukrainians may be fighting for nationalistic or other ideological reasons that don't have much to do with more general concepts like liberal democracy.  Overall the Ukrainians might be fighting to preserve Ukraine (as a set of communities).  Some might be fighting because they are angry and aggrieved and want revenge.
Then there are many other motivations -- to deter Russia from pushing to control more territory for example...or indeed to
uphold the implied post-WWII standards that strongly discourage attacking neighboring sovereign entities except in self-defense (which the Russians keep bringing up as if the assault on Ukraine didn't look like...well a massive attack on a sovereign entity).
Defending liberal democracy probably isn't a primary motivation -- I think it's more the integrity of sovereign territories that causes the defensive reflex in the West.  The sequential take-overs of Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland and so on by Germany, and swathes of Finland, Moldavia and Poland by Russia at the beginning of WWII that provides the basic fear that drives the West, maybe even unconsciously

I'm not really talking about the average Ukrainian on the ground. I can assure you, most are fighting for their lives, their families and their homes. That is common in all wars. There are few idealists in fox holes.  I'm talking about the political and business special interests that are fighting to preserve the world order by encouraging the struggle at the macro level through claims, in part, that the war is one to preserve Democracy against authoritarianism.

   There's a lot of inherent opacity to the motivation of political and business entities and that gets further obfuscated by the incoherence of Russia's justifications for attacking -- for example, the Russians seem to want to claim some kind of self-determination for the populations of their protectorates, but not for anyone else.  So that would appear to suggest some kind of questions of "democracy" are in play at some level.
   And then, the world order.  I hate to point out that the idea of sovereign integrity has been fundamental for the West at least since 1648 and the Treaty of Westphalia.  This fundamental notion of sovereign integrity has been through a lot, but it has been affirmed in scores of treaties for the last three hundred years or so.  If Russia has some legitimate grievance, it should be brought before some international body and worked out according to treaties such as those governing the Turkish Straits.  It's not like having nukes and being on the permanent UN security council excuses you from all other obligations of being a sovereign nation among sovereign nations.  I think this might be seen as at least one of the motives for opposing the Russian attack on Ukraine as well as being an important aspect of the world order.

[Jarhead0331]

This may be a naive view, but even if Ukraine were themselves an authoritarian dictatorship, I still see battling Russia and making them bleed to be for the betterment of liberal democracies everywhere.  Though I can agree that "Democracy vs Authoritarianism" is an oversimplification.

Well, you've kind of hit on one of the main reasons why couching the war in terms of "democracy vs. authoritarian regime" is misguided. Even some authoritarian regimes have condemned the Russian invasion and have vocalized support for Ukraine. Arguing that it is "us vs. them" can have a negative impact on widespread support for Ukraine and could alienate some nations, pushing them closer to the Russian camp.

[GDS_Starfury]

Is Ukraine a "liberal democracy"? Asking for a friend. 

certainly more liberal then russias "democracy".

[Jarhead0331]

Is Ukraine a "liberal democracy"? Asking for a friend. 

certainly more liberal then russias "democracy".

Agreed.

[GDS_Starfury]

I'm glad you agree that they should get our full support.

[GDS_Starfury]

now this is funny!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1636838840047476737

[Groggy]

Framing the war as one of 'democracy versus authoritarianism' is a tactic used by the US and Europe to raise the stakes of the war and to generate political and moral support. However, in my friend's view, regarding the war in Ukraine as a battle between democracy and authoritarianism is misleading, misguided and somewhat naive. In truth, Ukrainian blood is more probably being spilled to preserve the post-WWII international legal order. Whether one thinks this is actually good for democracy or not, I suppose, is subjective. 

Doesn't sound like your friend is familiar with Timothy Snyder. I would recommend On Tyranny. Terrific read. Hopefully he or she isn't myopic enough to label a reputable historian such as Snyder as being misguided or naive.

6.  To weaken the prestige of tyrants.  In this century, the trend has been towards authoritarianism, with Putinism as a force and a model.  Its defeat by a democracy reverses that trend.  Fascism is about force, and is discredited by defeat.

https://snyder.substack.com/p/why-the-world-needs-ukrainian-victory

[Sir Slash]

Well it's possible Snyder has fallen for one of those conspiracies that's going round these days. Ukraine is fighting for the RIGHT to become a Liberal Democracy, if it chooses, someday. But it's hardly one now. Perhaps in order to defeat a Dictatorship you must become more like them but I believe the wisest policy would be to show your people, and the world, that what they are dying for is the opposite of what Putin offers his country, freedom. And that is why our support for the Ukrainian people, not necessarily their leaders, should be conditional upon their commitment to that Liberal Democracy-Thing that's so important to us all.

[FarAway Sooner]

I think that the "liberal democracy vs authoritarian rule" label is a slight oversimplification, but only a slight one.  Liberal democracy and the right to self-determinism aren't identical, but they share a lot of traits in common.

To put it in much simpler terms, my sense is that, while war is an inherently ghastly business for both sides involved, the Russians have been playing much closer to "the bad guys" than "the good guys".  That's not just an opinion shared by Ukraine and NATO countries.  It's shared by most of the world.  And even the UN, which can't ever agree on pretty much anything, largely agrees that the Russians are acting like the bad guys here.

Of course, the Russians aren't doing anything to the Ukrainians that the Americans didn't do to the Japanese or the Germans.  Aside from attacking them first...

[Crossroads]

To answer the question whether Ukraine is a democracy or not, based on studies and statistics, I guess we can have a look at the World Democracy Index.

It does paint a troubled picture, and for a country that was invaded in 2014 and is currently under martial laws, I suppose I for one at least can have some sympathy for that. Prior to that, Ukraine was ranked at the level of contemporary India or Poland, a Flawed Democracy, as they name that range in the ranking. Not too bad for a country that is trying to rid the shackles of an authoritarian past. Some of the former Soviet bloc countries, take Estonia as a former annexed republic within USSR, or the Czech Republic as a former WP country, are sandwiching the US while Slovenia is just behind. Just saying, so it is possible. 

I don't quite get questioning the international order, either. Here we have a sovereign, independent European state, under an unprovoked and brutal invasion. It was not the NATO expansion the ever popular excuse, that was definitively put off the table prior to invasion.

Not being naive greater powers can wield a lot - a lot - of soft power to influence things, but as that had failed in case of Ukraine, determined violence to erase a nation and its culture it was. I can hardly think better reasons to preserve free will than making war by autocrat nations hell bent achieving spheres of interest on their smaller nations than preserving international order.

[Tripoli]

Well it's possible Snyder has fallen for one of those conspiracies that's going round these days. Ukraine is fighting for the RIGHT to become a Liberal Democracy, if it chooses, someday. But it's hardly one now. Perhaps in order to defeat a Dictatorship you must become more like them but I believe the wisest policy would be to show your people, and the world, that what they are dying for is the opposite of what Putin offers his country, freedom. And that is why our support for the Ukrainian people, not necessarily their leaders, should be conditional upon their commitment to that Liberal Democracy-Thing that's so important to us all.

It is possible that after successfully resisting the Russian invasion, the Ukrainian people will realize the shortfalls of their own system and demand changes.  In this scenario, their victory will give them both the confidence and desire and the power to see their suffering put to good use in reforming their own government, and demand the kleptocrats in Ukraine be shorn of their power. 

[Skoop]

I would say Ukraine is trying to make good on its path to western style democracy.  Versus Russia where all elections are rigged in favor of one guy, and his opposition is either killed or imprisoned.

[Jarhead0331]

I would say Ukraine is trying to make good on its path to western style democracy.  Versus Russia where all elections are rigged in favor of one guy, and his opposition is either killed or imprisoned.

I do not think that it is sound or logical to suggest Ukraine is a stable democracy based on a comparison to an authoritarian regime. It is not effective in gaining an understanding of the actual state of democracy in the country. Ukraine cannot be described as a stable, consolidated democracy. It has made moves both backward and forward in its democratic development. The years 2021-2022 saw the imposition of sanctions on a record number of Ukrainian citizens, businesses, and media all through the authority of the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC), which, has reportedly gained much more influence over interior affairs since 2021. Domestic independent media and journalists have been the target of many sanctions on national security grounds, leading to three TV channels being taken off the air. Furthermore, Volodymyr Zelenskyy had the parliamentary speaker removed from his leadership position after he voiced objection to the domestic sanctions. This is a clear sign that Zelenskyy seeks to consolidate control over the parliament and have a loyal speaker in place to push his legislative agenda. There is also a growing perception that any opposition or critical voices within the president's team is harmful and not above punishment for disloyalty. None of this sounds very democratic to me when viewed independently, but yes, when compared from the perspective of Putin and Russia, the view changes dramatically, although as i noted above, this is somewhat misleading and only tells half the story.