Russia's War Against Ukraine

[GDS_Starfury]

Just look at some of the NSFW material from the retreat corridor they left open.  It's a freaking charnel house.

yes it is, and the lack of massive craters is whats shaping my opinion of the missiles used.

[al_infierno]

To be honest, I'm starting to wonder if modern Russia is even worse than Nazi Germany and the USSR in terms of cynical disregard for the lives of their fighting men.  I don't recall the Nazis or actual Soviets literally offering up 5,000 soldiers as a sacrificial lamb to the enemy just to buy a day or two of time.  From what I understand, Hitler at least believed the men he sent to die were valiantly fighting a winnable cause, not just slowing them down (even if that's what he was really doing).

Sir Andrew or any other proper historians can feel free to correct me!

I don't think you're wrong. 

I need to look more heavily into it, but I know that based on a lot of what Glantz wrote on the Russians and the myriad of sources on the Germans...this kind of callous sacrifice wasn't common to either of them. 

There were of course desperate holding actions, No Step Back orders, Hitler's at times insane no retreat orders.  The entire Stalingrad campaign could've massively been easier for Germany if Hitler had simply let Paulus fall back.

They did leave formations to be exposed and overrun.  Both the Russians and Germans. 

The Germans could've even fallen back against the Western Allies in Cobra and avoided Falaise. 

Still, there wasn't this utter disregard and abandonment of the front line.  Both Russians and Germans were trying to preserve combat power when they could.  The Germans were usually worse than Russians in abandoning men and potential combat power by ordering men to stay in place when the situation was untenable. They of course would make sacrifices, but this seems to me different. 

This is them just cutting off 5000 troops, some of them in high quality formations like the Kuban Regiment.   

I saw videos about some of the garrisons in Lyman where Russian troops showed the squalor they were living in, and asked openly "Where are my officers?  No one here has seen an officer in days?  We don't even have a guard on the door.  We're in here alone".

I don't think the Russians or Germans ever abandoned their men to that extent, at least I haven't read the equivalent.

Sorry if this is spammy but this post deserves to be bumped into the next page, because I've noticed an awful lot of users not reading beyond the latest page of posts.

I have to admit that after this whole thread, this might be the most sickening thing.  Abuse of civilians is disgusting but it was at least expected.  This callous disregard for human life is on another level.  I'm starting to feel like I need to take a break from the news because I know this conflict and the human cost is far, far from over.

[SirAndrewD]

I think the difference here in callousness is how little support the fighting man had on the ground.

When the Germans made their huge, idiotic no retreat mistakes that ended up costing them entire armies, the men and officers on the ground at least knew the order.  In some cases they'd circumvent the letter and preserve some of their troops. 

It was an element of Hitler's inability to understand grand strategy.  He gave a no retreat order when Barbarossa failed and it possibly saved a broad front collapse of the German Army.  After that he considered it a swiss army knife to fix any situation where a withdrawal to better positions would be preferable. 

In those cases the German Army had the efficitve Jr. Officer and NCO corps to do it.  They had functional command at the regimental and above.  Their men knew what was asked of them and performed.  They surrendered when it became untenable, usually when their Corps/Army commanders saw the writing on the wall and did it. 

The Russians lost huge numbers in pockets early in the war simply because they didn't have the command or control to stop the bleeding.  They didn't have the officers, they didn't have communication. 

The thing here is simple to me.

The Russians knew three weeks ago Lyman was not a good line to hold.  They had an opportunity to use the Oskil to fall back, carefully to Svatove.  They could have developed a defense in depth and worked to pivot their line and keep their men from being exposed. 

They didn't even TRY to save them.  They didn't have to let Lyman get surrounded.  It wasn't necessary for them to even try to hold it let alone pour more troops there.

And then they by all indications left their men there with...as I've pointed out before...no direction by Jr Officers or NCO's.  They were just there, no idea about the general tactical situation, isolated with limited supply and ammo.

Total abandonment from...ineptitude?  That's all I can see.

[al_infierno]

They say never to assume malice when stupidity is a perfectly reasonable explanation, but in this situation it's extremely hard to tell the difference.

[GDS_Starfury]

unlike WW2 the russians have no depth, no lend lease and no time to sort their shit out.
Im getting more 1917 feelings from the reported russian public media.

[SirAndrewD]

Newest update...

The line around Lyman has cracked.  No house to house in the city.  It's done.

The UAF now is advancing along two axes to Svatove.  Borova is cut off, the Oskil line is finished.

There's little to no indication that with the fall of Lyman that the Russians actually have any coherent formations defending Svatove, and potentially behind that Starbolisk.

[ArizonaTank]

Total abandonment from...ineptitude?  That's all I can see.

Don't know if it is abandonment or not, but certainly panic and breakdown of command. It looks to me just about every panicked rout since Marathon. 

The Union Army broke and ran during the First Battle of Winchester in May, 1862. During the rout, Union General Nathanial Banks yelled at one of his running men; "My God man, don't you love your country?." "Yes sir," the soldier replied, "and I am trying to get back to it as fast as I can."

[SirAndrewD]

Total abandonment from...ineptitude?  That's all I can see.

Don't know if it is abandonment or not, but certainly panic and breakdown of command. It looks to me just about every panicked rout since Marathon. 

The Union Army broke and ran during the First Battle of Winchester in May, 1862. During the rout, Union General Nathanial Banks yelled at one of his running men; "My God man, don't you love your country?." "Yes sir," the soldier replied, "and I am trying to get back to it as fast as I can."

I don't disagree but the issue here is, Lyman was untenable for weeks. 

We're all grogs, we could read a map and see where the line had a really hard to hold spur and how they could've and probably should've used the two weeks delay to begin to phase a withdrawal to better positions and defend more in depth.

It's not what happened this weekend.  It's what happened for the two weeks prior.  It's the troops on the ground who saw their officers disappear and who, a few posted on twitter and asked "WTF is going on?  Where are our officers, what's even happening?"

Kind of telling in a social media war where we see that happen live. 

I'm not unhappy the Russians got crushed....again.  But I am surprised at how total this collapse was when their men on the ground just seemed to have no info or idea about what was happening around them.

[GDS_Starfury]

its actually a worse 1941 army.
and thats saying lot!

[GDS_Starfury]

things are afoot!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1576410989104627712

[FarAway Sooner]

I'm not disagreeing with anything so much as just stating:  Given the fog of war, and the ease with which misinformation and disinformation circulate on the internet, I'm a little puzzled at how confident some of you seem about what's been happening in the last 36 hours.  I'm not saying you're wrong.  I'm just puzzled about how much concrete info we have outside of the capture of Lyman and the predictable "It's a bloody f***ing route for the Russians who were left there".

Andrew, I'm curious that you say what you're seeing right now is worse than what the world saw on the Eastern Front in WW II.  Can we even draw conclusions about that based on what we're hearing and seeing right now?  Or is this one of those situations where you can tell me but then you'd have to kill me?

I did have a Top Secret security clearance decades ago.  The biggest proof I have of that is my notice received seven or eight years ago from the US Office of Personnel Management that the Chinese stole a whole bunch of personal info about me collected when I was 23....   ???

[SirAndrewD]

Andrew, I'm curious that you say what you're seeing right now is worse than what the world saw on the Eastern Front in WW II.  Can we even draw conclusions about that based on what we're hearing and seeing right now?  Or is this one of those situations where you can tell me but then you'd have to kill me?

It's not worse.  Not even close.

And I don't mention the stuff I know I shouldn't know or am told not to say.  I said waaaay back in this thread I'd stop on that and I'm keeping to it.

What I saw that gave me shocked pause was the lack of support the Russians had in Lyman from their junior and high level command.

This is largely an effect of social media.  I've seen them constantly tweet or facebook and ask directly "What the heck is going on?"

This then got combined with Russian media and one link posted above where a pundit said he was directly ordered not to talk about Lyman.

It's not so much, is this worse than the terrible no retreat pockets in WW2, and more a how can Russian command have abandoned their men so utterly as far as we've been able to see?

Clearly, we're in FOW right now and the picture will get clearer.  The words of the Russian MoD are different from what's being told on social media and what West mobloggers are saying.

I just see a situation where, what I can only describe as Orwellian ineptitude, caused troops being asked to hold a very exposed position lost their officers, their command and control, and finally their lives once an encirclement they didn't even know was happening closed on them.

That seems to be avoidable as they had a logical plan to fall back to stronger positions in a phased, organized way and refused to do it. 

[SirAndrewD]

I know we regularly are caught in the geopolitics of this.

I just want everyone to think about the people there.  Outside Donetsk and Luhansk, the cities, they don't want this.

It's hard to think on what this does to the rest of the world, but don't stop thinking about the people on the ground that if the Russians win this war will endure nationalistic erasure.

[Uberhaus]

unlike WW2 the russians have no depth, no lend lease and no time to sort their shit out.
Im getting more 1917 feelings from the reported russian public media.

and Romania 1989.

Most importantly, Putin has really copped it now.  He definitely won't be able to pull the "No, I am your father." card either.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-63107183

[FarAway Sooner]

I hesitate to get too inspired by the stuff I see on YouTube, because it makes me feel like I'm cheering for one side in a football game and I know that the stakes here are millions of times greater.  But that "Slava Ukraini" video is really powerful.  Thanks for posting.