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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: Grim.Reaper on February 04, 2012, 07:04:40 AM

Title: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 04, 2012, 07:04:40 AM
Title says it all...

http://www.fileplanet.com/224596/download/Crusader-Kings-II-Demo (http://www.fileplanet.com/224596/download/Crusader-Kings-II-Demo)
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Martok on February 04, 2012, 07:39:43 AM
Any idea whether the demo requires Steamworks?  Would love to try it out, but not if I gotta deal with Steam. 

Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 04, 2012, 07:45:12 AM
No steam that I can tell, seems like a stand alone demo.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 04, 2012, 07:50:07 AM
Seems like demo comes with the tutorial which is great and also limited play of the campaign as one of four characters.   I think I read somewhere you can play 20 years of the game.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 04, 2012, 11:03:26 AM
Quote from: Martok on February 04, 2012, 07:39:43 AM
Any idea whether the demo requires Steamworks?  Would love to try it out, but not if I gotta deal with Steam.

You are just setting yourself up to have to buy the Digital Download version when you find you really love the demo...  ;D

Which was my plan all along...  8)
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 04, 2012, 06:02:17 PM
Well, fired this up a couple of times today...looks really nice and no crashes, seems like a ton of depth.  However, I have no freaking clue what to do.  A lot of terms are unfamilar to me and not sure what exactly to do.  Tried the tutorials, but not sure I am impressed.  Seems like they are needlessly broken up into basic, intermidate, and advance, which would be fine, but each one like covers 3-4 steps.  Would have liked to seen them strung together better.

Don't get me wrong, I am determined to figure this one out, just going to take a bunch of time:)
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 04, 2012, 06:53:15 PM
I can probably help with the terms, if you have any questions. Post specific issues here and I'll try to cover them.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 04, 2012, 07:12:51 PM
Thanks Som, I will take you up on it for sure as I try and figure it out.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: spelk on February 05, 2012, 01:30:55 AM
The tutorials are better than they usually are, however I've become unstuck in one or two of them, and ultimately you have to quit them and replay them until you fathom out what it is they want you to do. The Ship loading/unloading one still has me foxed and I can't get past it. I can unload my army, but the tutorial doesn't go anywhere after that.

I like all the pomp and circumstance presented in the game, but ultimately (as with any of Paradox's Grand Strategy games) I haven't a clue what my main objective is!

I played the King of Poland, I mused over who to marry, thought a German girl would suffice, but ended up with a Norwegian instead. But thats about it. Do I try and assemble a massive army, is it conquest through warfare that is my goal? Is it just surviving? Do I need to capture pomerania to get to the sea?

I haven't got much  of a grasp on medievil England, let alone know what the rest of the world was doing at the time, but I think as so often happens with Grand Strategy games, especially open ended ones, I am but a startled rabbit in the headlights of sandbox possibilities. :)

Playing the CKII demo pushed me over the edge to buy Victoria II's a House divided, perhaps with the American Civil War on the table, I might be able to understand some of the goals... but then again, I fired that up, and lo and behold, the numbers, the icons, the flashing lights and baubles of VicII mesmerise me into a confused mess, an almost ketamine induced apoplexy.

Perhaps I buy these games, just to pretend I'm all knowledgeable and I like to press a few buttons and see a few graphs and pages full of numbers and icons? It feels like I am operating a very complex time machine I know absolutely nothing about. One day I might spin the dial and be whisked back, lost in time and space. :)
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 05, 2012, 11:08:00 AM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 04, 2012, 06:53:15 PM
I can probably help with the terms, if you have any questions. Post specific issues here and I'll try to cover them.

SOM,

Instead of bothering you with all my term questions, is there a recommended book/web site that might have the majority of the topics for the time period?  I am talking about understanding the hierarchy order of kings, barons, counts, vassals, counties, etc.  Also, lot of general terms as matrilineal marriage, etc.  To be honest, just about every term mentioned in the game I would like to learn more:)
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 05, 2012, 07:04:10 PM
Grim,

The feudal hierarchy in CKII is pretty simple - King > Duke/Baron > Count. Dukes and Barons are vassals to Kings and Counts are vassals to kings (and sometimes to Dukes and Barons). You can get a Duchy that has no King, like the Duchy of Majorca in 1311. This is ahistorical, Majorca was actually a kingdom, but I think this has a gameplay purpose of preventing people from becoming kings by eating up a small minor and claiming the title.

The Matrilineal marriage will set up a marriage where the children will share the dynasty name of the mother and not the father. This is also ahistorical, but has the gameplay benefit of allowing female rulers to continue their dynastic name for their children.

The succession laws are explained by the tool tips, so I won't really go into that.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 05, 2012, 08:26:58 PM
Thanks a ton som that helps me.  Still have a lot to learn but that will be the fun part.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 06, 2012, 11:43:03 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on February 05, 2012, 08:26:58 PM
Thanks a ton som that helps me.  Still have a lot to learn but that will be the fun part.

Regarding Duke and Counts (should have discussed this in the last post):

If you are a king, then you will choose if you want to assign counts to individual provinces or duke to rule (in your stead) over a collection of counties. Putting in a duke put an intermediate step in between you and the counties, while assigning a count to a province you own directly makes you the direct feudal lord of the count.

In CKII, feudal lords can, and often do (and actually did in real life as well) hold multiple titles. For example, King Robert of Naples (in 1311) is King of Naples (the kingdom at the southern end of Italy), Duke of Province (which was actually a county historically, and counties and duchies were not differentiated as such historically) and duke of Neapoli (or the area around Naples, the county). What this means is that he directly administers these areas, with only a few counts likely to be his subordinates. In CKII you have a "dominion" score that determines how many provinces you can rule directly and still rule effectively. Go over this score by directly administering too many provinces and your directly-ruled provinces will lose loyalty and revenue will drop dramatically. Also, I believe you can get some negative events from this.

To lower your score, you can assign a subordinate. You can take away a big chunk by assigning a duke over multiple provinces and letting him take care of the counts there, or you can assign provinces piecemeal to counts (although this won't lower the score as much). You can also switch them over to episcopal rule, I believe, and assign a bishop (I think you can still do this) - but that brings in some additional problems of succession.

After assigning a subordinate, you still technically control that part of the kingdom, but now you do so through your subordinate and the loyalty of the subordinate will determine how they react to your edicts. The loyalty of the subordinate will also determine if they will fields troops for you, if they will oppose your changes to laws, if they will support your heirs, and WHO they will support if inheritance is up in the air. So you may practically need to assign a duke or count, but doing so suddenly adds in a level of diplomacy that you did not have before.

In general, you want to assign your most loyal members of court to be your subordinates. You want your best and brightest as dukes, because they have more provinces under their control and more authority. You may even want members of your family (sons or nephews) to be dukes (unless, of course, inheritance is up in the air).

Another aspect of this system comes in during military support. In places you control directly, you can raise feudal levies of troops instantly and with no fuss. In places where your vassals (i.e. dukes and counts) control, they have the option to tell you to shove it when you request troops or to become disloyal if you keep their troops out too long.

Lastly, in a perfect world your dukes and counts will stay in your kingdom after your first monarch's death. Of course, this doesn't always happen (and the game will let you know about problematic succession). You can revoke a duke or count's title, and return the duchy or county to your control, but this may cause the vassal to rebel and will certainly make all of your vassals less loyal. Use this option sparingly.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Bison on February 06, 2012, 12:04:48 PM
I'm tempted to buy CK2, but I'm not sure.  I didn't really like CK, but this one looks to have some good new features that may improve gameplay from my perspective.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 06, 2012, 12:57:54 PM
Quote from: Bison on February 06, 2012, 12:04:48 PM
I'm tempted to buy CK2, but I'm not sure.  I didn't really like CK, but this one looks to have some good new features that may improve gameplay from my perspective.

It all depends on what you didn't like about CK1. The new features expand the scope, but the key gameplay is fairly similar.

Of course, if you played the game, you might learn better about how malleable Church institutions were...  8)

But seriously, what did you not like about CK1. I'll let you know if it is still a factor.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 06, 2012, 07:57:51 PM
Wow SOM...thanks for all the detail, you sure know your stuff!  Soon as I get time, I will give demo a whirl again.

Also, for those interested, pre-order now available on Steam.  CK1 completes comes with it for free.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: TheCommandTent on February 06, 2012, 08:19:40 PM
All this talk about he game has me curious.  And being one to never pass up free things I think I'll get the demo.  I never played the first one so I have no idea what to expect.  This should be interesting. :)
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 06, 2012, 08:44:40 PM
Quote from: SCDJ on February 06, 2012, 08:19:40 PM
All this talk about he game has me curious.  And being one to never pass up free things I think I'll get the demo.  I never played the first one so I have no idea what to expect.  This should be interesting. :)

Be wary, there is a learning curve on these types of games. Have you played the Europa Universalis games or Victoria II?

Grim, medieval is what I do for a living... so there is that. And gaming is a lifelong hobby. So I'm doubly prepared for CKII!
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: TheCommandTent on February 06, 2012, 09:47:33 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 06, 2012, 08:44:40 PM
Quote from: SCDJ on February 06, 2012, 08:19:40 PM
All this talk about he game has me curious.  And being one to never pass up free things I think I'll get the demo.  I never played the first one so I have no idea what to expect.  This should be interesting. :)

Be wary, there is a learning curve on these types of games. Have you played the Europa Universalis games or Victoria II?

Grim, medieval is what I do for a living... so there is that. And gaming is a lifelong hobby. So I'm doubly prepared for CKII!

I was warned about the learning curve but thanks for the heads up.  I've never played either of those games.

That being said after dld the game I fired it up and went through all the tutorials, which were very nice by the way.  I like the medieval period so so far the game seems like it could be alot of fun.  Everything seems laid out well and thankfully have lots of tool tips.  But the amount of data and screens is a bit overwhelming for someone not use to these type games.  (It did remind me a bit of HOI2 which I've played before, but with alot more polish)  But I like what I see so far and am willing to put in the time to learn so I think I might just test the water with one of the characters in the demo.

Two questions:

Is there a manual available yet that I could read through?

Second, any basic tips for a noob. :)
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Greybriar on February 07, 2012, 12:49:56 PM
The Crusader Kings II manual is now available in .pdf format (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?583630-Crusader-Kings-II-Manual&p=13395140#post13395140).
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Martok on February 07, 2012, 01:27:42 PM
Thanks, Greybriar!  That'll help. 

Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: TheCommandTent on February 07, 2012, 07:22:03 PM
+1 Thanks


Still trying to figure out what I want to or should be doing in the demo.  Lots of fun buttons to click though :)
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Arctic Blast on February 07, 2012, 08:43:51 PM
Dammit! Pre-ordered. The games are really starting to pile up...
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Bison on February 08, 2012, 08:16:27 AM
Well the Paradox fanboys are already giving votes over on Metacritic.  Is the game a 10 or 9?  I don't know.  However given the last few PI releases I think most folks are wary at best about the long term condition of the game.  VIC 2 I remember came screaming out of the gate with how great it was and only later did the PI normal issues start to crop up.  I hope that is not the case for CK2, but that would be completely going against the normal PI release pattern.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 08, 2012, 11:31:42 AM
Quote from: Bison on February 08, 2012, 08:16:27 AM
Well the Paradox fanboys are already giving votes over on Metacritic.  Is the game a 10 or 9?  I don't know.  However given the last few PI releases I think most folks are wary at best about the long term condition of the game.  VIC 2 I remember came screaming out of the gate with how great it was and only later did the PI normal issues start to crop up.  I hope that is not the case for CK2, but that would be completely going against the normal PI release pattern.

James Allen has been playing the beta more than I have and he thinks it is really solid. Sengoku was pretty solid as well (the last major Paradox release) in comparison. James was a pretty vocal critic of Victoria II out of the gate, so take that into consideration.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Bison on February 08, 2012, 11:35:55 AM
I agree that Sengoku was released in good shape.  Not very fun IMO, but at least it wasn't a bug ridden mess. 

The issue is I want a Grand Strategy game covering the medieval period and this seems to be about the only thing going right now.  I should just stop pretending that I'm not going to get it and just preorder the dang game.  I see at Steam you get CK complete as an added bonus, so I guess I could go back to that and spend more time learning the mechanics again.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 08, 2012, 12:21:25 PM
Now that you are in Civilization, can you watch James's videos on CKII? That should help you decide.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: W.S. Hancock on February 08, 2012, 05:04:12 PM
Hey  SoM, I know you are the resident expert on this time period.

Any recommendations on period histories, more of a generalist nature, that would be good background reading in anticipation of the game?

My previous reading on the topic has included God's War, A New History of the Crusades, by Christopher Tyerman, but not much more than that.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: TheCommandTent on February 08, 2012, 05:16:28 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 08, 2012, 12:21:25 PM
Now that you are in Civilization, can you watch James's videos on CKII? That should help you decide.

What videos would you be referring to?
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 08, 2012, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: W.S. Hancock on February 08, 2012, 05:04:12 PM
Hey  SoM, I know you are the resident expert on this time period.

Any recommendations on period histories, more of a generalist nature, that would be good background reading in anticipation of the game?

My previous reading on the topic has included God's War, A New History of the Crusades, by Christopher Tyerman, but not much more than that.

Whew... well, I'm not overly good on stuff that isn't probably a bit deep, given my stuff tends to be on a level not palatable by lay historians and too specialized for generalists.

I haven't had a chance to read it, but David Abulafia just released a new book that is both for the academic and general public. It is called The Great Sea: A Human History of the Mediterranean (http://www.amazon.com/Great-Sea-Human-History-Mediterranean/dp/0195323343/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328753404&sr=8-1). It isn't strictly Medieval, but it has some components that are. His other book that I found really good is The Western Mediterranean Kingdoms 1200-1500: The Struggle for Dominion (http://www.amazon.com/Western-Mediterranean-Kingdoms-1200-1500-Struggle/dp/0582078210/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328753604&sr=1-17). It is an expensive book to own, but you probably can find it in a decent size library.

If you can handle something a bit drier and want something about the Crusades, I suggest James Powell's Anatomy of a Crusade (http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Crusade-1213-1221-Middle-Ages/dp/0812213238/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328753522&sr=1-1). It is a book covering the logistic aspects of Crusading and is very interesting.

If the Hundred Years War is more your game, I suggest C.T. Allmand's The Hundred Years War: England and France at War c. 1300-1450 (http://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Years-War-c-1300-c-1450-Cambridge/dp/0521319234/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328753702&sr=1-2).

If you want some of the classics, look at:
Georges Duby's The Three Orders: Feudal Society Imagined (http://www.amazon.com/Three-Orders-Feudal-Society-Imagined/dp/0226167720/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328754144&sr=1-4)
Joseph Strayer's On the Medieval Origins of the Modern State (http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Origins-Princeton-Classic-Editions/dp/0691121850/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328754241&sr=1-1) (note: his Modern is about 30+ years ago)
R.I. Moore's The Formation of a Persecuting Society (http://www.amazon.com/Formation-Persecuting-Society-Authority-Deviance/dp/1405129646/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328754307&sr=1-1)
Malcom Barbar's The Trial of the Templars (http://www.amazon.com/Trial-Templars-Malcolm-Barber/dp/0521672368/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328754359&sr=1-1)
Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie's Montaillou: The Promised Land of Error (http://www.amazon.com/Montaillou-Promised-Emmanuel-Roy-Ladurie/dp/0807615986/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328754396&sr=1-1) (about the Inquisition)

I'm a huge advocate of reading primary source texts, and they are often cheaper anyway. Some of the greats are:

Chronicles of the Crusades (http://www.amazon.com/Chronicles-Crusades-Penguin-Classics-Joinville/dp/0140449981/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328753867&sr=1-1) written by Jean de Joinville and Geoffroy de Villehardouin.

The Chronicles of Froissart (http://www.amazon.com/Chronicles-Jean-Froissart/dp/0140442006/ref=pd_vtp_b_11)

Two Memoirs of Renaissance Florence by Gregorio Pitti and Francesco Dati (http://www.amazon.com/Two-Memoirs-Renaissance-Florence-Buonaccorso/dp/088133622X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328754082&sr=1-1)

I'll try to think of more, but that is a start!
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 09, 2012, 07:37:28 PM
Anyone else seeing Swedish on their Gamersgate.com page?
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: Grim.Reaper on February 09, 2012, 07:40:46 PM
what do you mean?  Text?
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: LongBlade on February 09, 2012, 08:04:25 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 09, 2012, 07:37:28 PM
Anyone else seeing Swedish on their Gamersgate.com page?

Look, for the hundredth time - quit surfing those Swedish pr0n sites.

Nej, det ser engelska mig.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 09, 2012, 08:29:57 PM
Yeah, I tried to log in to get my press copy of CKII (it wasn't there), then it switched my regional settings to Sweden and set all my prices to KR instead of USD. I can't seem to get to to switch back...  >:(
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: LongBlade on February 09, 2012, 08:45:29 PM
LOL.

OK, if it isn't fixed in the morning LMK and I'll send some emails.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: LongBlade on February 09, 2012, 08:46:39 PM
Oh, try clearing your history/cache and see if that helps. It may have decided that since you're a strapping Swedish viking that you should remain so.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 09, 2012, 09:07:47 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on February 09, 2012, 08:46:39 PM
Oh, try clearing your history/cache and see if that helps. It may have decided that since you're a strapping Swedish viking that you should remain so.

It logged me out... and it was back to $$. But when I logged back in it was KR. I'm so sick of Gamersgate jerking me around. I put in another support call... but they probably won't answer me.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: W.S. Hancock on February 09, 2012, 10:23:56 PM
Thanks for the book recommendations SoM.  I will let you know what I order once I get a chance to figure that out myself.
Title: Re: Crusader Kings II Demo Out
Post by: son_of_montfort on February 10, 2012, 01:48:05 PM
NP, Hancock. Check your library, because it may be cheaper.

I found out my problem... in an effort to fix my DL problem, customer service switched me over to the Swedish server. Problem is... they didn't tell me they were doing it. Great job guys!  >:(