War in the West

[JudgeDredd]

Does it or are you just going by the map?

I only ask because although the whole map is there, it's possible it could be restricted

[Sir Slash]

Yeah, I think the eastern front is abstracted or AI controlled.

[BigBlueFleet]

Yeah, I think the eastern front is abstracted or AI controlled.

I've been following it quite closely and will be buying it the day it's released.

The GHC can grab units from the East Front but in can cause the collapse faster from the way I read it.

I grabbed a screenshot from post 16  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3712936

You can send units in either direction.

Here's a screenshot of the EF Box - it puts the Ostfront in play in an abstracted manner. In simple terms the more units the slower the Soviets advance.

[Huw the Poo]

It's not so much the fact that there is a stacking limit, it's that it doesn't matter what size the units are.   So, say I have a division in a hex.  Two other division sized units could enter that hex no problem.  However, if I broke that division down into 3 regiments in that hex, no other units (even HQ or Air) could enter that hex.  So, the same hex that couple happily accommodate 3 division sized units can now only handle 3 regiments.  A wild ass guess is that it is to help keep the stacks small so that they don't overlap into another hex, which can be a pain to handle graphics-wise.

Erm...wot?  I'm not even a hardcore grog but that would bother the shit out of me.  If I'm paying hardcore bucks for a game - which I am in the unlikely event that I'm buying from Matrix - it had better damn well not have arbitrary limitations like these that even a novice would recognise.  Christ.

[BigBlueFleet]

It's not so much the fact that there is a stacking limit, it's that it doesn't matter what size the units are.   So, say I have a division in a hex.  Two other division sized units could enter that hex no problem.  However, if I broke that division down into 3 regiments in that hex, no other units (even HQ or Air) could enter that hex.  So, the same hex that couple happily accommodate 3 division sized units can now only handle 3 regiments.  A wild ass guess is that it is to help keep the stacks small so that they don't overlap into another hex, which can be a pain to handle graphics-wise.

Erm...wot?  I'm not even a hardcore grog but that would bother the shit out of me.  If I'm paying hardcore bucks for a game - which I am in the unlikely event that I'm buying from Matrix - it had better damn well not have arbitrary limitations like these that even a novice would recognise.  Christ.

I guess to each their own but playing WITE I've never had a problem with it.  I plunked my money down on WITE the day it was released.  It works and it is fair IMO. 

Of course if someone wants to be critical of something whether for legitimate reasons or not people can find fault in any game ever created.

Edit---Not implying your complaints aren't legitimate but IMO they aren't views I subscribe to.  I've stated in the past not every game is everyone's cup of tea.

[Huw the Poo]

Well I speak, as stated, as someone who isn't a hardcore grog.  But I would notice that.  It seems like a silly, arbitrary limitation to me.  I could have 3000 troops occupy a hex, or 300, depending on what size unit I put in there?  That's jarring in my opinion, and would definitely have ramifications re; gameplay.  If it was a little indie game I'd be more forgiving, but for the kind of money Matrix charge I'd expect individual soldiers' inside leg measurements to be precise.

[JudgeDredd]

It's not so much the fact that there is a stacking limit, it's that it doesn't matter what size the units are.   So, say I have a division in a hex.  Two other division sized units could enter that hex no problem.  However, if I broke that division down into 3 regiments in that hex, no other units (even HQ or Air) could enter that hex.  So, the same hex that couple happily accommodate 3 division sized units can now only handle 3 regiments.  A wild ass guess is that it is to help keep the stacks small so that they don't overlap into another hex, which can be a pain to handle graphics-wise.

Erm...wot?  I'm not even a hardcore grog but that would bother the shit out of me.  If I'm paying hardcore bucks for a game - which I am in the unlikely event that I'm buying from Matrix - it had better damn well not have arbitrary limitations like these that even a novice would recognise.  Christ.

I should point out there was another thread where an arbitrary limitation on platforms within a game which was classed as a "premium" product and was charged as such was mentioned by "he who shall not be mentioned" on these very boards and everyone, man, woman and dog, were justifying the developers reasoning for doing so

Just sayin'  :P

For the record - that limitation was a bit confusing but never bothered me much either.  :)

I'm not sure the stacking limitation bothers me. It certainly didn't bother me when I played WitE (though I didn't play that nearly as much as I should/could have. I always kind of took it as a limitation on land space. Say the hexes were 40KM (I don't know)...I always viewed the stacking limit as not being able to squeeze anymore units in there and, even if you could, they'd be a beautiful target for a carpet bomb.

That's how I viewed them anyway.

[jomni]

On the bright side, 3 units is definitely easier to manage than actually taking into account the number of men that can fit in a hex like in WITP.

[Nefaro]

It's not so much the fact that there is a stacking limit, it's that it doesn't matter what size the units are.   So, say I have a division in a hex.  Two other division sized units could enter that hex no problem.  However, if I broke that division down into 3 regiments in that hex, no other units (even HQ or Air) could enter that hex.  So, the same hex that couple happily accommodate 3 division sized units can now only handle 3 regiments.  A wild ass guess is that it is to help keep the stacks small so that they don't overlap into another hex, which can be a pain to handle graphics-wise.

Erm...wot?  I'm not even a hardcore grog but that would bother the shit out of me.  If I'm paying hardcore bucks for a game - which I am in the unlikely event that I'm buying from Matrix - it had better damn well not have arbitrary limitations like these that even a novice would recognise.  Christ.

I should point out there was another thread where an arbitrary limitation on platforms within a game which was classed as a "premium" product and was charged as such was mentioned by "he who shall not be mentioned" on these very boards and everyone, man, woman and dog, were justifying the developers reasoning for doing so

Just sayin'  :P

For the record - that limitation was a bit confusing but never bothered me much either.  :)

I'm not sure the stacking limitation bothers me. It certainly didn't bother me when I played WitE (though I didn't play that nearly as much as I should/could have. I always kind of took it as a limitation on land space. Say the hexes were 40KM (I don't know)...I always viewed the stacking limit as not being able to squeeze anymore units in there and, even if you could, they'd be a beautiful target for a carpet bomb.

That's how I viewed them anyway.

Fine point.  ;)

[Rayfer]

It's not so much the fact that there is a stacking limit, it's that it doesn't matter what size the units are.   So, say I have a division in a hex.  Two other division sized units could enter that hex no problem.  However, if I broke that division down into 3 regiments in that hex, no other units (even HQ or Air) could enter that hex.  So, the same hex that couple happily accommodate 3 division sized units can now only handle 3 regiments.  A wild ass guess is that it is to help keep the stacks small so that they don't overlap into another hex, which can be a pain to handle graphics-wise.

Erm...wot?  I'm not even a hardcore grog but that would bother the shit out of me.  If I'm paying hardcore bucks for a game - which I am in the unlikely event that I'm buying from Matrix - it had better damn well not have arbitrary limitations like these that even a novice would recognise.  Christ.

I should point out there was another thread where an arbitrary limitation on platforms within a game which was classed as a "premium" product and was charged as such was mentioned by "he who shall not be mentioned" on these very boards and everyone, man, woman and dog, were justifying the developers reasoning for doing so

Just sayin'  :P

For the record - that limitation was a bit confusing but never bothered me much either.  :)

I'm not sure the stacking limitation bothers me. It certainly didn't bother me when I played WitE (though I didn't play that nearly as much as I should/could have. I always kind of took it as a limitation on land space. Say the hexes were 40KM (I don't know)...I always viewed the stacking limit as not being able to squeeze anymore units in there and, even if you could, they'd be a beautiful target for a carpet bomb.

That's how I viewed them anyway.

Fine point.  ;)

+1...never bothered me at all, a minor bump in the road....WITE is a great game, though the enormity of the full campaign has eluded me....the scenarios are great.

[BigBlueFleet]

It's not so much the fact that there is a stacking limit, it's that it doesn't matter what size the units are.   So, say I have a division in a hex.  Two other division sized units could enter that hex no problem.  However, if I broke that division down into 3 regiments in that hex, no other units (even HQ or Air) could enter that hex.  So, the same hex that couple happily accommodate 3 division sized units can now only handle 3 regiments.  A wild ass guess is that it is to help keep the stacks small so that they don't overlap into another hex, which can be a pain to handle graphics-wise.

Erm...wot?  I'm not even a hardcore grog but that would bother the shit out of me.  If I'm paying hardcore bucks for a game - which I am in the unlikely event that I'm buying from Matrix - it had better damn well not have arbitrary limitations like these that even a novice would recognise.  Christ.

I should point out there was another thread where an arbitrary limitation on platforms within a game which was classed as a "premium" product and was charged as such was mentioned by "he who shall not be mentioned" on these very boards and everyone, man, woman and dog, were justifying the developers reasoning for doing so

Just sayin'  :P

For the record - that limitation was a bit confusing but never bothered me much either.  :)

I'm not sure the stacking limitation bothers me. It certainly didn't bother me when I played WitE (though I didn't play that nearly as much as I should/could have. I always kind of took it as a limitation on land space. Say the hexes were 40KM (I don't know)...I always viewed the stacking limit as not being able to squeeze anymore units in there and, even if you could, they'd be a beautiful target for a carpet bomb.

That's how I viewed them anyway.

Very good point JD!

Hex's are 10 miles across (I don't know how many KM's that is).  Say I have 3 German divisions averaging 16,700 men and their equipment.  I'd have better than 50,000 men in a 10 mile hex not counting if I have support units attached which could be up to 3 per unit to divisions or their HQ if deliberate attacking and leadership checks are passed.  Three total support units can participate in attacks from along the chain of command in attacks.   On the defensive there's also reserve activations where in theory more men could be in the hex depending on leadership checks.

I believe their thought process on this is sound. There may be other beefs that are legitimate in my mind but this isn't one of them as already stated. The supply system is getting a total overhaul and the game will be more realistic than ever IMO.

I'm excited for the direction 2by3 is taking this.

[jomni]

But in WITE, the Russians can squeeze in 3 corps in a hex. 

[Cyrano]

OK, JudgeD...you vagued me beyond comprehension re: "the other premium product", &c.

Not that I need know, but it took such significant effort to try and suss out what you were talking about that I think something basic in my cerebral cortex just punted and went home.

That said, every "heavy" game of this type is going to try to prevent mega-stacking in some way.  Why? Because, in a previous generation of games, particularly board games, people occasionally didn't prevent them and horrible, grossly a-historical mega-stacking happened.  We're wargamers...we're dicks that way. (Pardon my french.)  Given the opportunity by a ruleset to do something we will, given infinite time, monkeys, and typewriters, do it and smile evilly at those we're playing against as we do so.

How well a particular system controls this (I think the DC system is an elegant one), is part of how we'll judge the game.  For me, WiTW, like it's predecessor, is some kind of grognard Ur-porn.  It's something our lizard brain craves irrespective of need or time to play.  The Tiller WWI games are like this for me, too...

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[BigBlueFleet]

On the bright side, 3 units is definitely easier to manage than actually taking into account the number of men that can fit in a hex like in WITP.

Yeah, far be it from me to bash my favorite game but one of the drawbacks are mega stacks of both infantry and naval assets.   Even keeping in mind the 40 mile hex's .  Some of the stacks you see are humorous to say the least.

I like the hex limitation mod for land units myself to prevent over stacking. :)

[JasonPratt]

I understand the point to not overstacking divisions or corps or the Russian equivalents thereof (ha ha).

I don't understand the point to not overstacking regiments. That's what was being complained about upthread, and I haven't yet seen a defense of only allowing three regiments per 10 mile hex where three divisions could also feasibly fit.

My guess would be that the practical defense is, "If you're trying to stack more than three regiments together you should damn well reorganize them anyway, duh." Assuming that's possible, as I seem to recall from reading about WITE. (I have it but have never played it, because I love donating money to charitable causes like Matrix. ;) )


Also, yes I was just going by the minimap, but then the abstraction explanation confuses me. Does the minimap cover area not on the main map? Is half or more of the main map dedicated to an abstract representation of the godawfully huge wars going on over there?