Let's Talk: Wargame or Not

[jomni]

Back to the topic at hand.  I do think that defining a game as wargame or not can begin with classifying it's location in one of three tiers.

Tactical, Operational, or Strategic.

So games which cover different tiers are not wargames?

[Bison]

Name another tier.  Those are the only levels of war that I'm familar with off hand.  Not say there are others but I cannot think of one.

[Anguille]

I very much agree with Bison but will precise my view:

A wargame's goal is a military victory (tactical or strategical) and it's not a click-fest but a game where you can still think about strategies. So Civilization is not a really a wargame in my book because you also have to work on your civilization etc. Some scenarios have what it requires (WWII etc) so the game can be a wargame if played like that. Starcraft, while it has the basics for a wargame, is too fast-paced imho to be a wargame.

[jomni]

That's a good definition.

So open ended empire management games that Paradox puts out are not wargames since they don't only focus on military victory. This includes Hoi? These are geopolitical strategy games.

Total War is not a Wargame because the tactical part is a click fest.

[Bison]

Games like HOI specifically would fall into the Strategic level of war.  The strategic level is not limited to the specific use of military force, but incorperates national or multinational objectives and the implementation of multiple means of resourcing to achieve that objective.  So in the case of HOI, it would be logical to assume that if one of the Allies objectives is to acquire air superiority they would focus national resources to the development of better fighters and bombers.  Or an objective might be to deny the Axis ease of access to oil, so you employ your national resources to develop relationships with nations providing that oil to sway them to stop doing so in which case military actions may play no role at all.

[GDS_Starfury]

thats covered in the review.   ::)

a wargame, IMHO, has to cover a historical period of time in a mostly accurate manner and focus on the military operations of the subject matter.  Homeworld isnt a wargame, its a RTS.  Combat Mission is a wargame.  a game of Warhammer can teach you tactics, strategy and logistics but its still an RTS.  my view is of course biased, much like my love of Gus in sheer fabric, but I digress.  Panzer General is a wargame but Fantasy General is a wargame simulator even though its the same game with different wrapping.

[Bison]

thats covered in the review.   ::)

Wait.  I didn't know that got published.  Link or it didn't happen!

a wargame, IMHO, has to cover a historical period of time in a mostly accurate manner and focus on the military operations of the subject matter.  Homeworld isnt a wargame, its a RTS.  Combat Mission is a wargame.  a game of Warhammer can teach you tactics, strategy and logistics but its still an RTS.  my view is of course biased, much like my love of Gus in sheer fabric, but I digress.  Panzer General is a wargame but Fantasy General is a wargame simulator even though its the same game with different wrapping.

I can agree with several of your points here.  Specifically the bolded line.

[GDS_Starfury]

I very much agree with Bison but will precise my view:

A wargame's goal is a military victory (tactical or strategical) and it's not a click-fest but a game where you can still think about strategies. So Civilization is not a really a wargame in my book because you also have to work on your civilization etc. Some scenarios have what it requires (WWII etc) so the game can be a wargame if played like that. Starcraft, while it has the basics for a wargame, is too fast-paced imho to be a wargame.

I would submit that being in the C3 loop of a unit in combat would make you wish for the simplicity of a C&C clickfest.

[GDS_Starfury]

thats covered in the review.   ::)

Wait.  I didn't know that got published.  Link or it didn't happen!

Gotcha!  ;)

[Bison]

thats covered in the review.   ::)

Wait.  I didn't know that got published.  Link or it didn't happen!

Gotcha!  ;)

For shame!

[GDS_Starfury]

games can be wargames but fewer games can be historical wargames.  most end up being simulators of whatever level you like to play at  ie, tactical, operational, strategic or national.

[GDS_Starfury]

most like type games are marketed either as wargames or rts games.  it seems to me though that those marketed as wargames are of a historical nature whereas the rest are marketed as strategy games or rts.

[jomni]

Combat Mission shock force is not a Wargame.

[Bison]

I think there is some grey area in regard to historical or not.  Certainly I've read discussion on other boards that the degree to which a game portrays the historical aspects determines it's status as a wargame.

[Bison]

Combat Mission shock force is not a Wargame.

Why?  Because it doesn't not depict actual historical battles?