One example why health care is so f**k*d *p!

[LongBlade]

No system is perfect.  Greed and waste are universal constants, no matter what system is being used.

+1

Which is why I prefer the private marketplace. Competition forces companies to mitigate their greed and incompetence. Having a single payer, especially the government, removes the competition and allows the bad to flourish unchecked.

[Centurion40]

My only issue with a purely private system is that poor and almost-poor suffer, in that if they cannot afford private insurance or they cannot afford to directly pay for services then they suffer or die where other who can afford treatment get to reduce suffering and extend life.

If I was raised in that all-private medical system, then I'd think nothing of it.  But I wasn't and my conscience prevents me from seeing it as an acceptable way to go.  Everyone should have access to the same basic level of healthcare, and the only way (AFAIK) is to have a government-run system- with all of its many faults.  I see it as civilized.

That being said, I hate a system that is unable to provide timely service to those in need and suffering AND prevents citizens from accessing private medical treatments.  Therefore the public system should permit a parallel private system for those who can pay for immediate service.  For example, here in Canada (Nova Scotia), if someone is suffering from chest pains and the family doctor suspects a heart condition, the doctor can refer the patient to a Cardiologist.  The patient might end-up waiting months to see the Specialist, and then more weeks and months before all of the tests could be completed, and then more weeks/months for a surgery date.  Sure it's all good medical service, and sure it's all free to access, but what's the good if you die or have a heart attack while you are waiting the months to get served and treated?

[Barthheart]

...
That being said, I hate a system that is unable to provide timely service to those in need and suffering AND prevents citizens from accessing private medical treatments.  Therefore the public system should permit a parallel private system for those who can pay for immediate service. ...

There are problems with this too. Doctors will probably drift to the "pay for service" side of things as that's where the money will be, leaving a shortage for the "free" services. If the Gov. tries to match pay level to private sector, everyone's taxes go up.... etc.

There are no easy solutions to this in any country but I'd like to think that Canada has the best compromise.....

[Barthheart]

Government law and regulation regarding pharmaceuticals share a huge portion of the blame for medicine costs.  When you can get the same medicine in Mexico or Canada cheaper even when its made in the US explains a lot of the issue.  Several years ago Montana attempted to make it legal to cross the border to purchase prescription drugs, but got a heavy handed slap down from the Federal government.

I think that might have been a request from our gorenment. The concern up here was that US demand would out strip our supply and Canadians wouldn't be able to buy drugs locally...

[son_of_montfort]

Government law and regulation regarding pharmaceuticals share a huge portion of the blame for medicine costs.  When you can get the same medicine in Mexico or Canada cheaper even when its made in the US explains a lot of the issue.  Several years ago Montana attempted to make it legal to cross the border to purchase prescription drugs, but got a heavy handed slap down from the Federal government.

It isn't all the government's fault, the pharmaceutical companies have the leverage to force higher costs due to near monopolies of their formulas. See MarkShot, the reason why they would not allow you to be treated by those three drugs alone was that the formula for mixing the drugs is proprietary to the pharmaceutical company and thus that is what gets sold. There used to be compounding pharmacies where the local pharmacist would sell you exactly what you talked about - three drugs mixed into one - but that is largely dying due to regulations and being driven out my pharmaceutical companies protecting their mixes. So, Bison is in part right, but these regulations are coming at us at the behest of private corporations.

Be leery of Mexican and Canadian meds. I wouldn't make the blanket statement that they are "cheaper" for the same thing. A large proportion of these are knock-offs.

I had a similar story, Mark. I went to a urgent care clinic because I had a really terrible sinus infection. I don't have any prescription coverage (but I will soon) and the weird doc there prescribed some allergy meds and a simple antibiotic for me. The Allergy meds were something like $150 each for a months supply... but you had to take it constantly for over a month or it would have no result! He told me that the med would go generic and possibly OTC in August. Once the pharmaceutical company no longer has a monopoly on the formula, the cost will drop to something like $20 for a month or less.  ::)

[Barthheart]

....
Be leery of Mexican and Canadian meds. I wouldn't make the blanket statement that they are "cheaper" for the same thing. A large proportion of these are knock-offs.

....

I know (hope?) you didn't mean that the way it sounds.... cheap "knock off" drugs from Canada not worth the cheap money.....

Just to be clear - Yes, many drugs here are generic brands. Yes they are cheaper. They work just as well and are just as safe as anything that costs 3x as much.

[son_of_montfort]

There are some knock offs smuggled across the border from Canada to the US. I'm not talking about what Canadians can get in their pharmacies, but what Americans - who think they are ordering Canadian meds - are actually getting. If you are an American who can drive to a Canadian pharmacy then you are safe. But a lot of people get suckered by ordering online.

As to Canada being a Third World Country... well... I've seen your wild expanses of nothing and heard 40's stories about Newfies...  ;)

[Barthheart]

There are some knock offs smuggled across the border from Canada to the US. I'm not talking about what Canadians can get in their pharmacies, but what Americans - who think they are ordering Canadian meds - are actually getting. If you are an American who can drive to a Canadian pharmacy then you are safe. But a lot of people get suckered by ordering online.

As to Canada being a Third World Country... well... I've seen your wild expanses of nothing and heard 40's stories about Newfies...  ;)

People the world 'round can get shafted by mail order durgs, even Canadians ordering online from the US.  ;)

I'll take the wild expanses of nothing over the US concrete jungles any day..... as for the Newfies..... well you got me there.  ;D

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

There are some knock offs smuggled across the border from Canada to the US. I'm not talking about what Canadians can get in their pharmacies, but what Americans - who think they are ordering Canadian meds - are actually getting. If you are an American who can drive to a Canadian pharmacy then you are safe. But a lot of people get suckered by ordering online.

That is how people end up snacking on aborted Chinese. Never buy meds off the net.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I'll take the wild expanses of nothing over the US concrete jungles any day..... as for the Newfies..... well you got me there.  ;D

Concrete zoo. A fairly famous anthropologist mathematician made the comment back in the 70s that humans are not designed to be packed into cities. It causes all kinds of problems. The only place where you can see animals held from spreading out to where they are comfortable is the zoo. Cities are human zoos.

[MarkShot]

One thing I want to clarify.  The drug Pylera was made of two antibiotics commonly sold and prescribed independently for various conditions.  Reasonable medical documentation on the Internet cites treatment of gastritis by administration of both individual drugs concurrently.  And the third is basically an over the counter product that anyone can buy without a doctor's RX.

Part of the reason I start this thread, is that the abuses I cited in the original post were so blatant that one could not convincingly argue that there is any other reasonable perspective.  Additionally, I was confident that there is no medical argument that could be made to explain what happened.

So, this is not a question of a pharmacy producing a formulation.  It is just writing two scripts for generic antibiotics and buying an over the counter product.  $20 USD versus $500 USD ... the complicity of many parties who fleece either the end consumer (via direct payment or higher premium) or corporate benefit premiums.

I really don't think there is any excuse.

This is just about as blatant as the home buyer who got an interest only/no money down/no doc loan, and the bank/lender which pushed it, and the investment house which changed it into a CDOs and traunches, and the insurer which issued swaps to insure the debt with no cash reserves to cover the loss, and the ratings agency that labeled it AAA investment grade.  It all stinks!

[son_of_montfort]

Well, I wonder why the doc did that? Ease of ingestion? Or perhaps he figured the insurance would take care of it?

[MarkShot]

Because medicine is compartmentalized.  Most noticeably it is compartmentalized by system.  So, pity the poor patient who has a problem that cuts across systems.

But this goes beyond biology.  Money and the cost of delivering health care is also outside of the box.  Other people handle that.

But the insurance paying 25X in excess of what is needed to treat a condition is not free.  That's an illusion.  The money has to come from somewhere ... like premiums you or your employer must pay.

[GDS_Starfury]

so what Ive learned from this thread is that Canadians are generic American knock offs that are cheaper to sleep with.

[Centurion40]

Market value sets the price, except if an up-and-comer is looking to under-cut the competition in order to secure a larger, stable market share.