Best All Time Major League Baseball (MLB) Players

Started by ArizonaTank, March 30, 2022, 08:06:01 PM

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ArizonaTank

It's end of March, and my mind is turning to baseball....

In 2003, Bill James...the number crunching guru, published the following list of the best MLB players of all time. It is surprising that Babe Ruth is not number one. But James documents his reasoning pretty well in the following article. Of course the list is almost 20 years old. I don't see that he has updated it however.

Here is the original article.
https://www.billjamesonline.com/article151/

I know we are mostly wargamers. But Ty Cobb did call baseball a "war." So curious if folks think there are any glaring omissions, or guys who don't belong.

This is a complete listing of the best players in baseball since 1901:

1.  Cy Young                1901-1903

2.  Honus Wagner        1904-1909

3.  Ty Cobb                 1910-1912 and 1917-1918

4.  Walter Johnson        1913-1916

5.  Babe Ruth               1919-1924 and 1926-1931

6.  Rogers Hornsby      1925

7.  Lou Gehrig              1932-1937

8.  Mel Ott                   1938

9.  Joe DiMaggio          1939-1941

10.  Ted Williams         1942, 1947-49

11.  Charlie Keller        1943

12.  Stan Musial           1944, 1950-53

13.  Hal Newhouser     1945-46

14.  Duke Snider          1954-55

15.  Mickey Mantle      1956-1962

16.  Willie Mays           1963-1966

17.  Ron Santo             1967

18.  Carl Yastrzemski  1968, 1970

19.  Hank Aaron          1969, 1971

20.  Bobby Murcer       1972

21.  Joe Morgan           1973-1977

22.  Dave Parker          1978-79

23.  Mike Schmidt        1980-1984

24.  Rickey Henderson 1985

25.  Wade Boggs         1986, 1988

26.  Tim Raines            1987

27.  Will Clark              1989-1991

28.  Barry Bonds          1992-98, 2001-03

29.  Jeff Bagwell           1999

30.  Jason Giambi         2000

Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

Gusington

Heh I have to admit being kind of shocked to see Jason Giambi show up in the list, even at #30...I forget how good he was. Same with guys like Tim Raines and even Mel Ott.

Also interesting to see Honus Wagner NOT at number one...


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

ArizonaTank

#2
Quote from: Gusington on March 30, 2022, 09:21:36 PM
Heh I have to admit being kind of shocked to see Jason Giambi show up in the list, even at #30...I forget how good he was. Same with guys like Tim Raines and even Mel Ott.

Also interesting to see Honus Wagner NOT at number one...

Reading the article, James used "win-shares" and "established value" as the stats he used for this list. I am not familiar with these but it would be interesting to see where guys like Jackie Robinson, Napoleon Lajoie and Johnny Bench would come in with this ranking method.

Here is the reference for "win-shares"
https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Win_Shares

I can not find an explanation for "established value"...I guess I have to get James' book.  :coolsmiley:

For the last six months or so, I have been playing OOTP22s Perfect Team sub-game. Basically fantasy baseball with historical and current players. It has been a great way to "get to know" classic players like Nap Lajoie or Hack Wilson. The thing I come away with is the value of utility players who can hold down multiple positions and do them well. And if you add in utility value, you are right, old Honus should be at the top of the list.

and...Giambi is on my OOTP Perfect Team...the man is golden!!!!
Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

Gusington

 O0 it feels like only yesterday watching Giambi


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

acctingman

Sorry, that list is Bull$hit

How the hell is Griffey NOT on that list? He's better than that turd nugget Bonds.

Gusington

^Heh, true. Lots of situations/players like that. LET YOUR ANGER FLOW


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

matt3916

That list is chronological and not rank ordered.

Gusington

Hmm then shouldn't Griffey Jr. take Giambi's #30 spot?


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

matt3916

Did you read the article?  It's not the #30 position, it's who was considered to be the best player in 2000 (in James' opinion).  James' methodology doesn't rate Griffey very highly.

ArizonaTank

#9
I am still trying to come to grips with Bill James' methodology.

I recently went on a business trip, and thought to myself...no problem...I'll just read James' book over the 5 hour flight.

So I put his book,  "The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract" on my Kindle.

It took me about 10 minutes to realize I was in way over my head. I have been just a baseball analysis 'dabbler' and his book was clearly for someone more well versed; it left me gasping for air. I felt like I was reading a book about astrophysics written for rocket scientists, while I have only once ever tried to fly a bottle rocket.

https://www.amazon.com/Bill-James-Historical-Baseball-Abstract/dp/0743227220/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1C1Q0N35YFOHI&keywords=bill+james&qid=1650903525&sprefix=%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-4

I had to put James' book down while my head was spinning.

But I did not give up. I found a really good primer on the world of 'Sabermetrics' that frankly left me feeling like I could go back to James' tome with confidence: "A Fan's Guide to Baseball Analytics: Why WAR, WHIP, wOBA, and Other Advanced Sabermetrics Are Essential to Understanding Modern Baseball" by Anthony Castrovince.

https://www.amazon.com/Fans-Guide-Baseball-Analytics-Understanding/dp/1683583442/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1C1Q0N35YFOHI&keywords=bill+james&qid=1650904097&sprefix=%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyM1Y1S0tHN04xNUJPJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjE1MTg3U05YNU1LNDBGTFY0JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0Mzk5ODcxTjJSMEFXN0VHUk83JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

The book really does a great job in pointing out the flaws in old standard stats such as Batting Average, RBI or even Errors. It also shows how the more modern stats such as On Base Percentage (OBP) or On Base Plus Slugging (OPS), while not perfect, better represent a player's contribution. It also explains WAR (Wins Above Replacement) pretty well...but I have to admit I am not enthralled with that particular stat (it just seems too speculative to me).

So, I am almost ready to go back to James' book...
Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.