First year nominees
Chris Carpenter
Johnny Damon
Livan Hernandez
Orlando Hudson
Aubrey Huff
Jason Isringhausen
Andruw Jones
Chipper Jones
Carlos Lee
Brad Lidge
Hideki Matsui
Kevin Millwood
Jamie Moyer
Scott Rolen
Johan Santana
Jim Thome
Omar Vizquel
Kerry Wood
Carlos Zambrano
Holdovers
Vladimir Guerrero
Manny Ramirez
Trevor Hoffman
Billy Wagner
Gary Sheffield
Jeff Kent
Mike Mussina
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Pick your 10 :)
My 10
Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Gary Sheffield
Jeff Kent
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
Last few I cut
Brad Lidge
Omar Vizquel
Johan Santana
Johnny Damon
Livan Hernandez
Jamie Moyer
And even I'm not 100% sold on Lidge, Vizquel, Damon, or Moyer.
I wonder if Vizquel doesn't suffer from playing at the same time as Garciaparra and Rodriguez.
And Lidge pitched a lot of really tough innings, especially those years as a setup guy w/ Houston, that kept him from inflating his stats as much as Hoffman, but he just doesn't 'feel' like a Hall of Fame pitcher the way Mussina & Schilling do.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 21, 2017, 06:47:48 AM
My 10
Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Gary Sheffield
Jeff Kent
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez <------ :notworthy: :notworthy:
Last few I cut
Brad Lidge
Omar Vizquel
Johan Santana
Johnny Damon
Livan Hernandez
Jamie Moyer
And even I'm not 100% sold on Lidge, Vizquel, Damon, or Moyer.
I wonder if Vizquel doesn't suffer from playing at the same time as Garciaparra and Rodriguez.
And Lidge pitched a lot of really tough innings, especially those years as a setup guy w/ Houston, that kept him from inflating his stats as much as Hoffman, but he just doesn't 'feel' like a Hall of Fame pitcher the way Mussina & Schilling do.
Johnny Damon
*Andruw Jones
Chipper Jones
*Johan Santana
Jim Thome
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Billy Wagner
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
The asterisk denotes close, but no cigar. In Santana's case, not enough time dominating (only 5 years) his peers and Andruw Jones was brilliant in Atlanta, but played 5 years too long at the end (mostly mediocre to poor) and spoiled it.
Vladimir Guerrero
Jim Thome
Chipper Jones
Trevor Hoffman
Billy Wagner
Manny Ramirez
Curt Schilling
Mike Mussina
Edgar Martinez
Omar Vizquel/Johnny Damon - I keep waffling back and forth between these two.
I can't figure out why there isn't more support from the voters for Vlad. I get that he played too long in Montreal, but he was better in that outfield than Andre Dawson ever was, and handled the instability of that franchise better than anyone could've expected.
The dude hit like a machine, and not just slapping singles around the park. And he'd hit everything
[yt]https://youtu.be/7Bqj3jynJnU[/yt]
Quote from: Arctic Blast on November 22, 2017, 11:48:44 PM
Vladimir Guerrero
Jim Thome
Chipper Jones
Trevor Hoffman
Billy Wagner
Manny Ramirez
Curt Schilling
Mike Mussina
Edgar Martinez
Omar Vizquel/Johnny Damon - I keep waffling back and forth between these two.
Good list. I'd probably go with Vizquel over Damon.
I just have a hard time supporting Manny b/c of him being caught with PEDs - dude actually got caught and suspended
True.
That's why I left Clemens, Bonds, Kent, Sheff, Sosa, and Manny off my list
For some reason Manny isn't as prominent in my thinking as a roid user. Don't get me wrong, I know he's guilty as hell, but I tend to forget for whatever reason.
I'm glad the roid era guys are being kept out, but I have a feeling they're getting in eventually.
When was Kent ever caught / suspected of PEDs?
I think of him as a fringe candidate anyway (even tho he's in my top 10 of the current available), but I'm curious b/c I don't ever remember him coming up in the discussions
Maybe I'm mis-remembering on Kent. Happens as you get older.
The one who really deserves it who has been kept out due to politics is Curt Schilling. No performance enhancing drugs and outstanding on the field performance.
Quote from: airboy on November 23, 2017, 02:14:08 PM
The one who really deserves it who has been kept out due to politics is Curt Schilling. No performance enhancing drugs and outstanding on the field performance.
100% agree. Schilling was the ace on 2 different World Series winners, and the #2 guy on 2 others, and almost no one has the same playoff record he does (maybe Andy Petite?)
Ack! Totally forgot that Manny got busted for PEDs.
Quote from: airboyThe one who really deserves it who has been kept out due to politics is Curt Schilling. No performance enhancing drugs and outstanding on the field performance.
I don't know that it's politics so much as the fact that he really does frequently come off like a complete a** hole. Great pitcher, kind of a dick.
Quote from: airboy on November 23, 2017, 02:14:08 PM
The one who really deserves it who has been kept out due to politics is Curt Schilling. No performance enhancing drugs and outstanding on the field performance.
+1,000,000
https://sports.yahoo.com/giving-hall-fame-vote-joe-morgans-letter-144738128.html
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 27, 2017, 10:44:42 AM
https://sports.yahoo.com/giving-hall-fame-vote-joe-morgans-letter-144738128.html
I think people need to get over the Field of Dreams mythic view of baseball. It was never all that pure.
That said, I still think the steroid guys should be kept out of the Hall of Fame.
True, but baseball is subject to intense nostalgia by the passionate fans and baseball has to recognize that viewpoint. I don't subscribe to it as much as I did when I was a kid, but steroids was a step too far. If only because of the physical repercussions for the athletes.
Ken Rosenthal's recent column
https://theathletic.com/188068/2017/12/18/here-are-four-more-players-who-merit-consideration-for-the-hall-of-fame/
QuoteI am rooting for at least four players to be elected to the Hall of Fame—newly eligible Chipper Jones and Jim Thome, plus holdovers Trevor Hoffman, who fell five votes short last year, and Vladimir Guerrero, who fell 15 votes short. All four players are deserving, and their inductions would clear four spots on the ballot for several other worthy candidates, with Mariano Rivera looming as the only first-time lock in 2019.
After voting for the maximum 10 players for the fourth straight year, I was particularly troubled by three of my omissions (Larry Walker, Scott Rolen and Fred McGriff) and also would have given strong consideration to a fourth (Omar Vizquel). Some of those players almost certainly will appear on my ballot next year if spots become available, though as always, I reserve the right to change my mind.
A year ago, I voted strategically, going with Billy Wagner over Guerrero in part because I feared Wagner would not receive the 5 percent of the vote necessary to remain on the ballot. This year I see no such need. Walker and McGriff exceeded 20 percent last year. Vizquel is virtually assured of reaching 5 percent according to ballot tracker Ryan Thibodaux (@NotMrTibbs), who records publicly released votes. Rolen, too, is on track to exceed the minimum standard.
I listed Walker and McGriff among my most difficult omissions last year at foxsports.com; my thoughts on both, shared below, are essentially unchanged. Rolen and Vizquel, on the other hand, are appearing on the ballot for the first time.
Thanks to Jay Jaffe of SI.com, the leading Hall of Fame expert of our generation. Though Jay and I do not always agree, his insights helped frame some of my opinions. Like many voters, I am grateful for all of his hard work.
Larry Walker, eighth year on ballot
I'm convinced Walker would get more support if he had played most of his career in high-profile markets rather than Montreal and Colorado. He's an under-appreciated talent whose lifetime numbers are better than Guerrero's, and every knock against him is easily answered.
Was Walker a Coors Field creation? No, during his nine full seasons with the Rockies, his OPS was 1.186 at home, .890 on the road. Was his average of 128 games over his 14 full seasons too low? No, his total of 1,988 games would rank 99th among the 165 Hall of Fame position players. Some of the players below him were inducted largely for their work as managers or executives, while others missed time during World War II. But one of last year's inductees, Jeff Bagwell, appeared in only 162 games more than Walker.
As I wrote last year, Walker's all-around ability was everything we've come to appreciate during the age of analytics, which offers better measures of defense and base running than in the past. Walker was a five-tool Mr. Everything, but he received only 21.9 percent of the vote last year, with 75 percent necessary for induction. His best chance might be with the Modern Era Committee after his 10 years on the BBWAA ballot expire.
Fred McGriff, ninth year on ballot
The Crime Dog's lack of support—21.7 percent of the vote last year—is not exactly criminal, but it's certainly unfortunate. McGriff was so steady, so reserved, he gets overlooked. Perhaps it would be different if he had hit the seven home runs he needed for 500, but the milestone should matter only so much.
McGriff had a higher career OPS-plus than Hall of Famer Eddie Murray, and his .917 OPS in 218 career postseason plate appearances was even better than his career .886 regular-season mark. The "most similar" batters on McGriff's baseball-reference.com page are Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Paul Konerko, Jeff Bagwell, David Ortiz and Frank Thomas. Konerko is the only one unlikely to end up in the Hall of Fame.
One more point: If writers are going to invoke the character clause to withhold votes from PED users, they also should use it to positively reward players who demonstrated integrity and class. McGriff certainly would qualify for such extra credit, as would Dale Murphy, who no longer is on the BBWAA ballot, and others. I'll say it again: McGriff should be celebrated rather than dismissed, saluted for his quiet consistency in an era of PEDs and me-first shenanigans.
Scott Rolen, first year on ballot
Start with this: Third base is the least represented position in Cooperstown. The Hall's website, which sorts Hall of Famers by the spots in which they left their most indelible mark, lists 16 inductees at third, 18 at catcher and 21 or more at every other position.
Rolen's overall value, in Jaffe's estimation, places him among the top 10 third basemen in history. His defense, as evidenced by his eight Gold Gloves, was cutting edge, a prelude to the acrobatics of Nolan Arenado and Manny Machado. Rolen also was a bona fide offensive threat, a much stronger hitter than say, Brooks Robinson—his career 122 OPS-plus was the equal of Hall of Famers Ernie Banks and Paul Molitor.
Injuries limited Rolen's counting stats—he finished with 2,077 hits and 316 homers after averaging just 108 games in his final six seasons and retiring at age 37. But 10-year dominance is my first requirement for a Hall of Famer, and Rolen accomplished that. From 1997 to 2006, he averaged 136 games, 25 homers and an .894 OPS, all while playing brilliantly in the field.
Omar Vizquel, first year on ballot
Vizquel replaces Jack Morris as the latest sabermetric whipping boy among Hall of Fame candidates, and not without reason. Hall of Famer Ozzie Smith—the standard for light-hitting, defensive marvels at short—not only was a better fielder than Vizquel but also qualified as a better hitter when adjusting his OPS for park and league effects.
We get it—Vizquel wasn't Ozzie, and if some of the defensive metrics are to be believed, he wasn't even close to Ozzie. Still, Vizquel played 24 seasons—nearly a quarter-century!—and no player can last that long without sustaining a certain measure of excellence.
Consider: Vizquel ranks 12th all-time in games played at 2,968. Of the 11 players ahead of him, only two are not in the Hall—Pete Rose, who is on the permanently ineligible list, and Barry Bonds, who is tainted by his connection to PEDs. Four of the five players behind Vizquel in games played also are in the Hall, the exception being Rusty Staub.
Vizquel improved his offense later in his career, finishing with 2,877 hits—fifth all-time among shortstops behind Derek Jeter, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr. and Robin Yount. Longevity matters. The election of Vizquel hardly would be an embarrassment to the Hall.
Here's who Ken actually voted for
https://theathletic.com/187946/2017/12/18/its-time-for-the-heavy-handed-hall-of-fame-to-be-more-open-minded/
QuoteI'm about to submit my Hall of Fame ballot, and I feel so . . . naughty.
Not because I am voting for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens; I'm confident the Baseball Writers Association of America already has elected users of performance-enhancing drugs to Cooperstown. No, I feel naughty because I don't think the Hall's board of directors, those nice people who let the writers vote, will appreciate my ballot.
Aw, gee. So sorry.
At my advanced age, I need not heed the outdated, passive-aggressive wishes of an institution such as the Hall—an institution that wants absolutely no part of Bonds, Clemens or any other suspected or confirmed drug cheat. Within the Hall's restrictive limits, I will keep doing whatever the heck I want.
I'm not giving up my ballot; I believe the BBWAA is the proper body to elect Hall of Famers, and also believe we are good at it, though certainly not perfect.
I'm not listening to Joe Morgan's belated plea to preserve the "sanctity" of the Hall by keeping out steroid users—a plea the board of directors tacitly endorsed by allowing Morgan to send it using the Hall's email address.
And no, I'm not going to continue to quietly accept two heavy-handed decisions by the Hall in 2015—the refusal to honor the BBWAA's request to expand the ballot limit from 10 to 12 and unilateral determination to decrease a candidate's full term from 15 to 10 years.
You would think the board of directors would want more Hall of Famers elected, particularly when the underrepresentation of players from recent decades is well documented, and when—ahem—additional honorees also would be good for business in Cooperstown. Think again! The ballot remains painfully overcrowded, and the unintended consequences, as well as the intended squeeze of Bonds and Clemens, continue to fester.
The expansion from 10 to 12 would have helped ease the logjam—I want to vote for at least 13 players this year, and some of my fellow voters want to vote for even more. The decrease in term from 15 to 10 years—the unofficial, "let's get Bonds and Clemens off the ballot as quickly as possible," rule—likely will prevent me from ever voting for Larry Walker, whom I believe is worthy and in eight years on the ballot has yet to exceed 22.9 percent of the vote, with 75 percent required for induction.
As I've explained before, I'm far from comfortable voting for Bonds and Clemens, believing that PED users gain an unfair competitive advantage, forcing non-users to join their cheating brethren or risk falling behind. But at this rate, the board is going to accomplish the near impossible, turning Bonds and Clemens into sympathetic figures among those who view them as getting railroaded by the system. A year ago, in their sixth appearance on the ballot, Bonds and Clemens received 53.8 and 54.1 percent of the vote, respectively. With four years of eligibility remaining rather than nine, they are running out of time.
The 10-man limit is creating another disturbing trend—the forcing of players off the ballot who do not receive the minimum 5 percent of the vote, yet warrant greater consideration. The examples include Jorge Posada in '17, Jim Edmonds in '16, Carlos Delgado in '15, Bernie Williams and Kenny Lofton in '13. In the final analysis, perhaps none deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, but perceptions occasionally change over time; Jim Rice in 2009 and Bert Blyleven in 2011 both were elected in their 15th and final year on the ballot.
The Modern Era Committee, which exists to correct oversights by the writers, took an encouraging step with its recent elections of Jack Morris and Alan Trammell, the first living players elected by a small committee since Bill Mazeroski in 2001. But the logjam on the writers' ballot eventually will result in a logjam on the era committee's ballot, if it hasn't already. The end result is the same: Not enough players getting elected to the Hall.
This is the fourth straight year I am voting for the maximum 10 candidates. I am happy to reveal my ballot, believing that writers should be transparent and willing to defend their positions. The BBWAA as a whole feels no different and voted 80-9 in December 2016 to make all ballots public, effective in '18. But the Hall squashed that possibility, leaving the decision up to each individual voter.
The board's rationale—that each voter should vote his or her conscience without fear of public backlash—is not unreasonable. I know at least one voter who intended to withhold a vote from a player he suspected of PED use but did not want to identify by making his ballot public. Again, fair enough. But if the writers voted overwhelmingly to reveal their ballots, who is the Hall to say no?
The Hall says it is proud of its longstanding relationship with the BBWAA. If that is truly the case, it needs to start listening to the BBWAA on relatively minor issues such as the transparency of ballots and on the bigger ones as well.
Without further ado, here is my ballot, naughty or not. I'm already on record explaining why I support my eight holdovers, and do not feel compelled to expound on why I voted for the two first-timers—Chipper Jones, one of the most accomplished switch-hitters in major league history, or Jim Thome, whose 612 homers rank eighth all-time.
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Chipper Jones
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
Jim Thome
Billy Wagner
So I have Damon and Walker and Rosenthal voted for the two cheaters. Otherwise, we're the same.
interesting perspective on pitchers
http://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/85069/how-jack-morris-complicates-future-of-hall-of-fame-pitcher-selections
What this chart says to me is "how the hell is Kevin Brown not in the Hall of Fame?!"
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgrogheads.com%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D20997.0%3Battach%3D12341%3Bimage&hash=3088436de658aef38bc58236c63c719bc8bcafec)
Chipper, Vlad, Thome and Hoffman go in with Jack Morris and Alan Trammell. Here's to you gentlemen! <:-)
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/hall-fame-adds-four-chipper-jones-jim-thome-vladimir-guerrero-trevor-hoffman-232609861.html
Dammit. I wish Edgar would have made it
70.9% if memory serves. If the trend continues, he's in next year.
Glad Chipper made it.
Quote from: mirth on November 26, 2017, 01:25:12 AM
Quote from: airboy on November 23, 2017, 02:14:08 PM
The one who really deserves it who has been kept out due to politics is Curt Schilling. No performance enhancing drugs and outstanding on the field performance.
+1,000,000
Still waiting for this to happen. O0