http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/23/van-plows-into-crowd-in-toronto-injuring-several-driver-in-custody-cops-say.html
Bloody hell. Scumbag.
9 dead and 16 injured currently.
RIP - seems I write this almost weekly recently :'(
Horrible >:(
My deepest sympathies to the victims and families and also to the onlookers who now cannot unsee what they witnessed.
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 23, 2018, 06:20:18 PM
Horrible >:(
My deepest sympathies to the victims and families and also to the onlookers who now cannot unsee what they witnessed.
It's often forgotten - by me - that witnesses will be traumatised by what they saw. So many people affected by one little shit :knuppel2:
Now 10 dead as on in hospital has died. :(
Still not much about the driver other than they have him in custody.
Toronto van attack: Suspect quizzed after 10 pedestrians killed
Police said Minassian was from the northern Toronto suburb of Richmond Hill and was not previously known to authorities.
"The actions definitely looked deliberate," said Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders.
Public safety minister Ralph Goodale said there "would appear to be no national security connections" and Canadian broadcaster CBC cited government officials as saying he was not associated with any known terror groups.
Minassian had previously attended a school for students with special needs in north Toronto, former classmates said.
He would be seen walking around Thornlea Secondary School with his head down and hands clasped tightly together making meowing noises, Shereen Chami told Reuters.
But she said Minassian had not been violent.
"He wasn't a social person, but from what I remember he was absolutely harmless," she told Reuters.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43875321
Toronto van attack: How is the suspect not dead?
The calm actions of a police officer who arrested the Toronto van suspect without firing a shot have prompted praise and, in some quarters, astonishment.
Video from the scene shows suspect Alek Minassian pointing an object at the officer and shouting: "Kill me!"
The officer tells the man to "get down" and when the suspect says he has a gun, the officer repeats: "I don't care. Get down.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43876772
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/toronto-van-attack-the-cop-who-didnt-shoot/
QuoteThe driver keeps pointing whatever is in his hand at the police officer who is carefully circling him to his right. "I have a gun in my pocket!" He starts walking towards the cop. A second video shows this precise moment from an office window high above. The driver keeps advancing, his arm extended. The officer steps backward. But doesn't shoot.
Then, in a flash, something shifts. The cop takes a steps forward. He moves towards the driver for the first time. The man in black hesitates and then steps backward. His determination evaporates. He doesn't want to die. His hands go up. He throws down the black thing in his hand. The cop keeps coming. He tells him to get down. He doesn't shoot.
"Put your hands behind your back!" He kneels on the driver, who is laying face down now on the sidewalk. He reaches for his cuffs. Thirty-seven seconds after the driver emerged from his van the attack is over. The cop didn't shoot.
This sounds more like a mental illness case than anything else.
Looks like after scouring his social media and youtube, the guy was an Incel, a group that's getting more and more violent as time goes by. He was apparently obsessed with the previous Incel mass killing in 2014 in Isla Vista.
Reddit recently had to shut down the Incel subgroup for its increasingly direct call on its members to commit violent act, including mass murder. It's a disturbing trend.
Never heard of Incel.
Quote from: Gusington on April 24, 2018, 02:28:13 PM
Never heard of Incel.
You're lucky.
Involuntary Celibate. They believe that women are only interested in Alpha males that they call "Chads" that treat them like dirt but get sex and relationships anyway.
The Incel is a man who is, in their minds, perfectly nice and acceptable, but women disregard them because they're socially awkward or unattractive by conventional standards. Most are "Kissless Virgins" who make it into their 20's or 30's.
The perp seems to have been a 25 year old virgin.
It gets more complex than that, but there's the basis. They were mostly just an object of online ridicule before they formed communities on 4Chan and Reddit that started to advocate for violence against women and "Chads". The advocacy for violence turned real with the Isla Vista massacre in 2014.
A vocal part of their community now call for an "Incel Rebellion" which would be an incident of mass violence designed to bring about social chaos and a mass slaughter of women.
The perp had a facebook post that hinted that he hoped to instigate the Incel Rebellion with his act.
You can find some of their stuff online, I wouldn't suggest it, it's really disturbing. I only looked into it because I'd heard my students mention it and I like to keep abreast of potentially violent advocacy that they might be listening to.
It's something we should stop laughing at and start looking at seriously.
Quote from: Gusington on April 24, 2018, 09:07:19 AM
This sounds more like a mental illness case than anything else.
Seems like most of them are.
I saw the video of him trying to suicide-by-cop, pointing his phone at the officer like it was a gun and saying "shoot me in the head".
Quote
Involuntary Celibate. ...get sex and relationships anyway.
Are those two not the
exact opposite?
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 24, 2018, 03:15:55 PM
Quote
Involuntary Celibate. ...get sex and relationships anyway.
Are those two not the exact opposite?
They think the "Chads" get sex and relationships despite, or sometimes because of how badly they treat women.
It's one of those "Only jerks get girls" lines of thinking. It's how they rationalize hatred of anything not themselves. That's something that generally is necessary for true extremism.
edit: ninja'ed by D! :cowboy:
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 24, 2018, 03:15:55 PM
Quote
Involuntary Celibate. ...get sex and relationships anyway.
Are those two not the exact opposite?
there's the "Chads" in the middle.
The Incels don't get the girls, despite being nice guys
The "Chads" get get the girls - and the sex and relationships - even tho they treat the girls like dirt
I'd say they should watch Shoe's video on the subject but it'd probably just make them more acrimonious.
^ It does. The violent response they have to people trying to approach them reasonably is what is making the "movement" kind of frightening.
I made the mistake of reading a blog by one of their more vocal mouthpieces, it was truly horrifying. It had "Incel movie of the week" reviews, portraying movies like "One Hour Photo" and "Falling Down" as primers on what Incels should be doing.
As was said, this is an expression of mental illness. These people need professional help, and they've created a cycle where if they're told that by someone, they become even more violent in response.
I don't think this is the last event we'll see tied to this group. This kind of violence used to manifest in serial killings. Now with the internet, press and social media pulling people closer, it seems that it's going to manifest in more public and brutal showpieces like Toronto and Isla Vista.
Sounds like MGTOW but more violent.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on April 24, 2018, 05:38:42 PM
Sounds like MGTOW but more violent.
Yeah, the Incels aren't fond of MGTOW. But what's being seen are a lot of people espousing MGTOW beliefs gravitating towards Incel as a kind of misogyny radicalization.
I'm sure he won't have any problems finding love in prison.
^Trudeau will probably greet him at the gate with cookies and an apology card.
The wonder of the Interwebz- turning formerly isolated sociopaths into evil self-promoting subculture groups.
One of the things that gave me pause when I looked into them last school term was how suicidal they were.
They're not so much about just doing something and getting away with it. Not so much the serial killer pathos.
More the "I'm going out to show these women what they did to me, and I'm taking as many people with me as possible".
Looks like that was this guys motive. He tried to get the officer to put him down and it didn't happen.
I'm glad the age group I work with isn't as prone to this stuff. I only learned about it because I heard them discuss it, but I know how much these germs of ideas can grow, especially among disaffected youth. When I taught High School I lost a kid to the Nazis who looked at me like a mentor. I'd hate to one day see someone I had pass through my classes go this way one day. I'm surely taking any mention of this even more seriously from now on.
I'm not joking when I say this, but almost sounds like a case for legalizing prostitution. Though I'm guessing these guys wouldn't view that as an alternative.
Quote from: OJsDad on April 24, 2018, 07:33:33 PM
I'm not joking when I say this, but almost sounds like a case for legalizing prostitution. Though I'm guessing these guys wouldn't view that as an alternative.
They don't.
Im guessing they're looking more for long term relationships and not just quickies.
Quote from: OJsDad on April 24, 2018, 08:43:58 PM
Im guessing they're looking more for long term relationships and not just quickies.
Disturbingly, it's worse than that. A lot of them are convinced that sex is a human right, not a privilege. They feel they're owed sexual attention and activity because they're the "good guys" and shouldn't have to pay for it. My wife said it best when I told her about this stuff...they don't want pity or paid sex, they want women to become sex vendors that give out sex when they put "niceness" tokens in.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 24, 2018, 08:48:24 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on April 24, 2018, 08:43:58 PM
Im guessing they're looking more for long term relationships and not just quickies.
Disturbingly, it's worse than that. A lot of them are convinced that sex is a human right, not a privilege. They feel they're owed sexual attention and activity because they're the "good guys" and shouldn't have to pay for it. My wife said it best when I told her about this stuff...they don't want pity or paid sex, they want women to become sex vendors that give out sex when they put "niceness" tokens in.
so thats not a slot for tokens? no wonder i keep getting slapped :tickedoff:
Quote from: SirAndrewD on April 24, 2018, 02:39:23 PM
Quote from: Gusington on April 24, 2018, 02:28:13 PM
Never heard of Incel.
You're lucky.
Involuntary Celibate. They believe that women are only interested in Alpha males that they call "Chads" that treat them like dirt but get sex and relationships anyway.
um those Incels got a point ;)
but wouldn't it be the natural reaction for an Incel to turn into a "Chad" themself or learn how to role play a "Chad" a little?
so getting out of the comic bookstore and the savespaces, picking up a manly outdoor sport or activities, shaping up the body while doing it, and maybe also seek some good advice by a mean well female acquaintance (from the target group material, not the 'female geeks') how to dress and haircut more sharp less geek and emo.
actually female biological-choosing of mates its even more complicated.
beside smelling to sort out mates with the same genetic setting (nature want max genetic difference of the immune systems in the mix)
according to some human biological science papers because the hormone stimulated preference of women as a mammal (so in a tribal/archaic setting/10 000BC ) also changes over the month.
it was found out that when they are not fertile female prefer the caretaking nice circumspectly (can be old) mate, who is easy to handle and who will sustain her in dangerous time of pregnancy and until the offspring is able to reproduce, but in the fertile days they prefer the strongest healthiest=young, risk taking, aggressive (= 'asshole') to get those genes from.
nature developed it that way because, from the pure evolutional biological point of view the female want the best genes to mix for the survival for her genes in the mix but also need a male (that can be also an older clan patriarch) who helps her getting her genes to survive until they can reproduce
if women are on the pill, that 'preference' is disturbed depending on the hormone level.
Wow I had truly never heard of this phenomenon before.
There's enough assholes in the world that I'm not sure encouraging greater assholeness is the best course of action....
I've never heard of this movement either! Wild. Not surprising, but wild.
Clearly, our "western" societies need deeper mental health services and/or more uncles who will take their awkward nephews to a bordello before they turn 19.
Alek Minassian Toronto van attack suspect praised 'incel' killer.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43883052
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/BF6A/production/_101020094_10a6ca78-d552-49c9-96c2-fa3778d0ac6e.jpg)
Coincidence or sick planning : The 10 dead and 14 wounded are "predominantly" women, ranging in age from their 20s to their 80s, police say.
That tweet makes a lot more sense now.
Jesus I wish that nuts like that would start with killing themselves....
It would help if the mentally sick were locked away again and not just medicated and then sent on their way.
Quote from: Gusington on April 25, 2018, 09:18:09 AM
It would help if the mentally sick were locked away again and not just medicated and then sent on their way.
here in the US, the feds have been cutting support for mental health and pushing it back to already-overburdened states for funding/support
they're doing it under the guise of "freedom" - don't use residential mental health as a proxy for incarceration - but really they're sticking a lot of people out in public that could use the help. Not unrelated: estimates range as high as 50% of homeless that are fighting mental illnesses. Not unrelated https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/nyregion/nyc-homeless-nakesha-mental-illness.html
^I hear you. Prisons are no substitute for mental health care and neither is throwing these people out on the street. These people should not be treated like human garbage and its coming back to bite the rest of society right in the ass. Medicine is one part of treatment but not the end all be all and some are too dangerous just to be medicated and not separated from the rest of society.
I agree, but we're also kind of far afield from the Toronto van topic.
You want to open a new thread, or just kind of leave it be?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 25, 2018, 09:51:49 AM
I agree, but we're also kind of far afield from the Toronto van topic.
You want to open a new thread, or just kind of leave it be?
I'm thinking new topic that might be best served in R&P. Discussion of MH will, inevitably turn to guns and politics....
You're preaching to the choir here. I worked at a state run mental institution from 1974 to 2001 until the state of Florida decided, like so many other states, that the mentally ill could be better treated in the community, also MUCH cheaper for the state. There were only 3 state facilities then open for the whole state. Ours had the highest Discharge/Admission rate of any because as soon as our patients were discharged, they quit taking their meds, would flip-out and come right back to us again. It happened this way for years. So how were they supposed to be treated more successfully after we were closed?
The local communities fought the state to prevent the closing and we presented all our facts and figures directly to the Governor and the legislature without success. We had 300 beds when we closed but over 1000 beds in the past. All our patients ended up either in jail once let out or else living as the 'Homeless' you see routinely everywhere. The state had already made the call and the truth mattered not at all. Those of us who had actually worked with the mentally ill knew this was what would happen.
The mentally ill don't need to be on the street. They need to be somewhere where they can't abuse us or be abused by us. My 2 cents. :-X
Ok I will start a new thread.
My experience is much the same - when I was a paramedic we had plenty of mental patients we'd transport to human services to catch the bus to the state mental facility upstate. I still remember a lot of them today, 20-some years later.
Quote from: Centurion40 on April 25, 2018, 08:04:14 AM
Jesus I wish that nuts like that would start with killing themselves....
sometimes i think our society in the West as a whole would be better of if there were
1. a 1 year draft for military service again
- no excuses! beside serious health conditions, like being handicapped -
2. and the nations actually go to war from time to time
well not on each others!, asymmetric warfare on shithole countries with governments which are unstable and don't have control over their landscape anyway and so harboring terrorists, generating a playground for fighting ethnics in civilwars since released from being a colony, you name it... mostly on the continent of Africa
the war goal is to overtake and occupy the whole country for a decade or so with a (staged, like they all are now anyway) UN mandate, with massive boots on the ground and a very very robust ROE, like in WW2. collateral damage? never heard of in 1945
after some time the ruling over that land is of course given back to good willing natives (government workers and diplomats getting trained and operating from the UN building first, just like a exile government would and later operating in country when their 'clan affiliation' is reduced to 'not a hindrance' for a better tomorrow anymore) after clearing the stretch of land from all kind of baddies, warlords, and unwanted factions which destabilize the region...
The resources gained from those lands are of course used to build the county infrastructure, education and health system and not stolen by the western occupants.
Those wars would wash out lot of maniacs from the society. the idiots will get them self killed by their own stupidity, the over aggressive gung-ho types will get them self killed soon in battle, the "emos" will get a chance to man-up by peer group pressure or commit suicide instead of murder now, and the 'normal' people will get a chance to prove them self, earn dignity and self esteem by their achievements, even if the achievements is just to live through the hardship and getting out alive.
also bonds will be forged in battle over all ethnic and belief borders, bonds that will carry over into the post tour of duty time and so into the society.
yes, we would loose some very good boys too. that is unavoidable, just the wrong place at the wrong time.
but also the majority of good guys will come back as a better stable person and prepared for coping with the hard ship and twists adult life usual is.
It may sound a little bit 'darwinistic', but I thought of WW2 the greatest generation.
never have read of all kind of BS-'phenomena' in that postwar time then we have to witness today ...or maybe it was just the lack of social media then?
-edit -
uups, there is new thread :-[
so respond to it might be better over there then
Quote from: MikeGER on April 25, 2018, 10:40:40 AM
It may sound a little bit 'darwinistic', but I thought of WW2 the greatest generation.
sounds a little genocidal to me
when I think of the WWII "Greatest Generation" I think of the guys that went to war to
stop that kind of behavior by removing the regimes that thought it was a good idea
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 26, 2018, 09:00:09 AM
when I think of the WWII "Greatest Generation" I think of the guys that went to war to stop that kind of behavior by removing the regimes that thought it was a good idea
this
^+2
'War as cleansing fire' has some pretty dubious historical supporters.
Seen online
Quote"So the men who can't get laid are calling themselves "incel" — which stands for involuntarily celibate. Nah. They're celibate by popular demand." ~ David Gerrold
Ouchie