I'm surprised this hasn't been getting more coverage in national news. Barely heard anything about it until the chemical burn-off. Long-term outlook is potentially bad.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/02/13/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-facts/69898564007/
FOX has been covering it steadily throughout the weekend and today. There was another derailment today in Texas.
Some people have claimed that this is the true reason for the distracting story of the Chinese "weather balloons".
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 14, 2023, 03:32:28 AMSome people have claimed that this is the true reason for the distracting story of the Chinese "weather balloons".
Explain? Or is this a joke that went over my head?
Also, strangely enough the area was also the filming sight for the movie "White Noise" which featured a very similar "airborne toxic event" caused by a train crash, which features extras in the East Palestine area. Art imitates life imitates art :Wow:
Quote from: al_infierno on February 14, 2023, 04:43:34 AMQuote from: Jarhead0331 on February 14, 2023, 03:32:28 AMSome people have claimed that this is the true reason for the distracting story of the Chinese "weather balloons".
Explain? Or is this a joke that went over my head?
Also, strangely enough the area was also the filming sight for the movie "White Noise" which featured a very similar "airborne toxic event" caused by a train crash, which features extras in the East Palestine area. Art imitates life imitates art :Wow:
Not a joke. Some people are suggesting that the balloon story is a distraction from the ecological disaster of the train derailment and the impact it may have on food supply.
It's not my theory, for the record.
Quote from: al_infierno on February 14, 2023, 04:43:34 AMQuote from: Jarhead0331 on February 14, 2023, 03:32:28 AMSome people have claimed that this is the true reason for the distracting story of the Chinese "weather balloons".
Explain? Or is this a joke that went over my head?
Also, strangely enough the area was also the filming sight for the movie "White Noise" which featured a very similar "airborne toxic event" caused by a train crash, which features extras in the East Palestine area. Art imitates life imitates art :Wow:
There are already people claiming the movie White Noise is "predictive programming" for the Ohio derailment, so things are just going to get dumber.
there's a lot to comment on this story. however it very rapidly becomes political.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 14, 2023, 09:54:54 AMthere's a lot to comment on this story. however it very rapidly becomes political.
Well, it can certainly be discussed here, but lets try to keep the politics out of it. i think a discussion of the cause of the accident, as well as its potential impacts and repercussions without editorializing are fair game.
The reverberations of this will be incalculable for the people in AT LEAST three different states that will have to live with the consequences of chronic exposure to these chemicals. There's a real possibility an entire region of the country will become one gargantuan cancer cluster.
SecTrans (finally) released a statement on the disaster, per a Twitter thread. The original thread:
https://twitter.com/SecretaryPete/status/1625305036854009856?s=20&t=cl_chMZ5QJ83RbHFSvL3oA
Epoch Times citations from it, plus some other updates:
QuoteButtigieg broke his silence following the criticism, posting on Twitter a series of statements.
"I continue to be concerned about the impacts of the Feb 3 train derailment near East Palestine, OH, and the effects on families in the ten days since their lives were upended through no fault of their own," he said in a post on Twitter.
He made reference to an investigation into the accident being conducted by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), noting that the Department of Transportation (DOT) was assisting with the probe.
"Our Federal Rail Administration and Pipelines and Hazardous Materials teams were onsite within hours of the initial incident and continue to be actively engaged," he said.
"We will look to these investigation results & based on them, use all relevant authorities to ensure accountability and continue to support safety," Buttigieg continued.
He said that the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) had screened 291 homes for both indoor and outdoor air quality and that there were "no detections" of dangerous chemicals. Another 181 homes remain to be checked, he added.
In a Feb. 13 update, EPA said that community air monitoring in East Palestine was running 24 hours a day and that, so far, the network of monitoring stations "did not detect anything above the action level."
A day prior, EPA said that the duration of community air monitoring would eventually be phased out in consultation with local authorities.
"Air monitoring since the fire went out has not detected any levels of concern in the community that can be attributed to the incident at this time," the EPA's Feb. 12 statement reads.
"Residents may still smell odors from the site. If you experience symptoms, Columbiana County Health Department recommends calling your medical provider."
The incident marked the third train derailment in Ohio since October 2022.
On Feb. 6, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine and Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro ordered the evacuation of a 2-mile by 1-mile zone spanning the state line due to the presence of vinyl chloride.
A statement from DeWine cited the presence of the toxic chemical in five boxcars, announcing that the possibility of a devastating explosion would be mitigated through a controlled release later that day.
The statement said that residents who stayed near the controlled release risked "grave danger of death."
After the vinyl chloride release, DeWine and other officials said on Feb. 8 that residents near the incident could return to their homes.
Residents of nearby communities have reported that animals on their properties have been sickened or even died, raising concerns about the risk to livestock and humans.
Erin Brockovich, the consumer advocate made famous by the eponymous movie, took to Twitter to say that she's trying to gather more information about the incident, while urging area residents to trust their senses and act accordingly if they experience anything worrying.
"I'm trying to gather information on this very serious situation in Ohio involving a train derailment with hazardous chemicals," Brockovich wrote on Twitter over the weekend. "What I will say is this. Trust your eyes, ears and nose and get the hell out of there if your senses are telling you too [sic]."
On Monday afternoon, Brockovich—who was the subject of the 2000 Academy Award-winning film "Erin Brockovich"—called on the federal government to be more transparent.
"The Biden administration needs to get more involved in this #PalestineOhio train derailment now. We are counting on you to break the chain of administration after administration to turn a blind eye. STEP UP NOW," she wrote.
Meanwhile, a West Virginia water utility has enhanced its water treatment process as a precaution following the derailment.
West Virginia American Water said Sunday that there hasn't been any change in raw water at its Ohio River intake.
"The health and safety of our customers is a priority, and there are currently no drinking water advisories in place for customers," the company said in a statement.
It added that it is planning to install a secondary intake on the Guyandotte River in case there's a need to switch to an alternate water source.
Jack Phillips and Nathan Worcester contributed to this report.
Brockovich's Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/ErinBrockovich/status/1625241729757507600
Joint statement from Govs Dewine and Shapiro et al saying residents can return home: https://governor.ohio.gov/media/news-and-media/East-Palestine-Update-Residents-Can-Safely-Return-Home-02082023
Prior Dewine statement: https://governor.ohio.gov/media/news-and-media/east-palestine-update-evacuation-area-extended-controlled-release-of-rail-car-contents-planned-for-3-30-pm-02062023
EPA statement yesterday (Feb 13th): https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=15933
All I'm going to say on this is that I agree with what JH said. I'll go one step further to also say it is plausible, no matter how outrageous, that this is more than meets the eye on this.
Check out what a prepper has to say...I'm not a prepper mind you but I like to hear what they have to say.
vinyl chloride, butyl acrylate, ethylhexyl acrylate, ethylene glycol monobutyl ether and isobutylene
quite the list of nasty chemicals said to be on that train
Also phosgene :undecided:
this is from 2010....
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/us/10rail.html
theres also the bit about trump reversing an Obama rule that these kind of tanker cars be fitted with a specific type of brake to prevent these types of accidents.
and to be fair about it, I see no reason for the current administration to have not reinstated that rule over the last two years.
I also think its rather silly that the Ohio governor would state that hes got it covered.
https://newrepublic.com/post/170591/train-derailment-ohio-governor-mike-dewine-im-not-seeing-problems
Adding to the insanity, a security camera spotted the train with flames/sparks flying a good 20 miles before the derailment site.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/video-shows-sparks-or-flames-20-miles-before-train-derailment-in-east-palestine/
My understanding is that Gov. Dewine was acting off the info given him by the EPA like everybody else since they were the agency in charge of the accident. The same group that told local residents it was safe to return home and drink the water. Also, I don't believe the Emergency Brakes that were supposed to be installed on the trains ever were. You would think that a Trillion dollars for Infrastructure that the Administration said it had to have might have been used for that first.
1. you would think that the prior administration wouldnt have repealed the rule to begin with.
2. with the state of our infrastructure as it is, its going to take years to get to and complete all the projects.
funny that you're complaining about the brevity of asset allocation when one side of the hill fought tooth and nail to kill the legislation that would provide the very fixes you demand now.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 15, 2023, 12:54:40 AM1. you would think that the prior administration wouldnt have repealed the rule to begin with.
2. with the state of our infrastructure as it is, its going to take years to get to and complete all the projects.
funny that you're complaining about the brevity of asset allocation when one side of the hill fought tooth and nail to kill the legislation that would provide the very fixes you demand now.
You're doing exactly what you said you wouldn't do. Making it political. You are the one that mentioned Trump and the prior administration as if the accident is his fault too. Ridiculous. Do not make this political. I specifically said to keep politics out of this. If you can't help yourself, leave.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 14, 2023, 10:48:38 PMI also think its rather silly that the Ohio governor would state that hes got it covered.
https://newrepublic.com/post/170591/train-derailment-ohio-governor-mike-dewine-im-not-seeing-problems
I guess the governor doesn't see any problems with the Ohio department of natural resources stating that the chemicals have killed 3,500 fish across 7.5 miles of streams in the area.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 15, 2023, 06:10:43 AMYou're doing exactly what you said you wouldn't do. Making it political. You are the one that mentioned Trump and the prior administration as if the accident is his fault too. Ridiculous. Do not make this political. I specifically said to keep politics out of this. If you can't help yourself, leave.
there is a chain of events that led to this happening. I also mentioned that the current administration had two years to reverse the rules change. I'm blaming both administrations and cant be more even handed about it.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 15, 2023, 08:07:51 AMQuote from: Jarhead0331 on February 15, 2023, 06:10:43 AMYou're doing exactly what you said you wouldn't do. Making it political. You are the one that mentioned Trump and the prior administration as if the accident is his fault too. Ridiculous. Do not make this political. I specifically said to keep politics out of this. If you can't help yourself, leave.
there is a chain of events that led to this happening. I also mentioned that the current administration had two years to reverse the rules change. I'm blaming both administrations and cant be more even handed about it.
Let's not blame any administration, because, as you said, and then went on to so aptly demonstrate, it quickly gets political. There are plenty of worthwhile issues to discuss that have nothing to do with which president or executive officer is responsible for the tragedy.
So there has been other derailments as well. One in Texas and yesterday one in Tennessee.
Hm, haven't heard about the one in TN yet. Will check around.
I saw something yesterday suggesting that the EPA set fire to the chemicals intentionally as the fastest and relatively safest way to get rid of them. Seemed like speculation to me, but I'll keep an eye out for anything further along that line.
As for legislation, I'm somewhat doubtful any administration killed legislation that would ONLY have provided safety brakes on chemical trains. Pork in the legislation was more likely the target, which would also explain why the next administration didn't get it passed again (or maybe even try). But I'm only guessing, because I don't know the details yet. I have heard that the infrastructure bill last year (which I don't even recall whether it passed!) only had about 20% of its cash allocated to actual infrastructure. Which might be an exaggeration against the bill, admittedly. Whatever the case in this instance, it's common knowledge that useful things get held hostage by pork interests in legislative bills on a routine basis, leading to propaganda complaints that attempts to stop or reverse such bills are aimed against the useful things. My a priori inductive expectation (which is admittedly not deductive, and also subject to specific evidence), is that the brakes were victims of that kind of political infighting, not targets.
We'll probably hear more about it from our political overlords on all sides, if so. :buck2:
Now I'm hearing there have been three chemical train derailments since Ohio: Texas, Arizona, and South Carolina. Arizona had a shelter-in-place order for a while. Will see if I can find more specific details. Haven't found TN yet.
Did see something about 2.75 average US derailments per day; but I know from personal experience those can be very, very minor: the tracks I cross every day multiple times have a few "derails" per year near a particular crossing, but those have so far only ever been technical detection of rail problems.
Currently, I don't think there have been any TN derailments since OH, and none involving chemicals for the past couple of years. There was some concern over the Ohio spill-and-fire causing environmental problems in Middle TN, but that's different. (And apparently won't be a problem.)
Pipelines are safer than rail.... just saying that
With the recent derailments in the news, it got me wondering about any RR tracks near me. This map seemed to show the most info: National Rail Network (https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=96ec03e4fc8546bd8a864e39a2c3fc41).
p.s. changing the base map to Navigation or Street really helps show how close any tracks are to your location.
I would agree that pipelines are much safer than RR's especially in their current state. I don't believe all the chemicals in the tank cars could've been moved by pipeline, however I'm sure the tech exists to increase the ability to use them for many of the chemicals now moved by rail. That would have also been a good use of Federal dollars for Infrastructure.
I have heard the railroad, Norfolk Southern I believe, gave a lot of political donations to both parties over the years. Clearly they thought having friends in high places was necessary.
My little town has almost no trains run through it anymore. While I miss them, I'm kind of glad about that right now.
Quote from: Windigo on February 15, 2023, 10:22:53 AMPipelines are safer than rail.... just saying that
A perverse side of my mind now wants to search for articles of truck drivers colliding with pipelines...! :evil:
It does bring up the topic of what would be involved for a pipeline distribution system of all the hazardous chemicals we use in the US. Seems nightmarish to me, on first consideration: most pipelines wouldn't be able to handle different chemicals for example.
Meanwhile, with Steve's link, I was surprised to see how few rail-lines TN actually has. I feel like I see them everywhere all the time, but that might only be due to mostly going to areas along the few rail lines.
Not sure exactly when this was taken, but this is from a passenger plane that flew over the burn-off.
(https://i.redd.it/146gjgxhqdia1.jpg)
Good Lord.
Quote from: Windigo on February 15, 2023, 10:22:53 AMPipelines are safer than rail.... just saying that
Well, I don't hear about such derailments out of Europe. The discussion about the level of brakes to be installed on a transport like this probably ends with the weaker brakes not allowed in Europe in the first place.
Train companies is the US are a bit out of control.
Quote from: al_infierno on February 15, 2023, 03:47:55 PMNot sure exactly when this was taken, but this is from a passenger plane that flew over the burn-off.
(https://i.redd.it/146gjgxhqdia1.jpg)
It literally looks like melanoma cancer.
^I was thinking the same thing.
That's one hell of a big melanoma! Does this mean Ohio has to have surgery followed by Chemotherapy?
Looks like it is politically neutral, so I'm just putting this here from wikipedia.
QuoteElectronically Controlled Pneumatic (ECP) brakes
In 2014, Congress passed the Rail Safety Improvement Act which required ECP brakes for "high-hazard flammable" trains.[5] The derailed train was not equipped with ECP brakes, which a former Federal Railroad Administration official claimed would have mitigated the severity of the accident. In 2017, railway industries successfully lobbied Congress with over $6 million and over $3 million in GOP and Democratic campaigns, respectively, to repeal the regulations requiring the use of such brakes on trains carrying hazardous materials.
However, despite the scale of the accident in East Palestine, the derailed train did not meet the qualifications of a "high-hazard flammable" train and therefore was not affected by the 2014 legislation or its 2017 repeal. The 2014 legislation was weakened by heavy lobbying by the rail industry.[6]
I'll try to find out whether such brakes are standard in Germany or at least required for hazardous cargo.
Here's what I think, which is worth about the same as Butterfly farts. This accident is tailor-made for politicians. Every time there's a disaster, they flock to them to get their picture taken glad-handing and handing out bottled water and such. The fact that no politician will go near the place, nor government official, or even the RR Execs, tells me something's got them scared shitless here.
I wouldn't be surprised if in a few months after everything quiets down, the EPA announces they have discovered there is contamination here in the water and soil but from some kind of natural source like mines or industry and that explains why they couldn't find it....and are not responsible of course. The Old Potomac Two-Step.
What in the actual hell WOULD qualify for a high-hazard flammable train?! .......actual hell!??
I suppose (more seriously) they mean materials that would spontaneously combust upon contact with normal atmosphere or water or other common environmental chemicals. That train didn't have such chemicals. Just, well, highly explosively flammable ones.
Another train carrying hazardous substances derailed near Detroit today.
^Is the total now four in the last 2-3 weeks?
It's so bad that people trying to commit suicide don't even lie down on the train tracks anymore, cause they're hardly ever on them. :shocked:
Quote from: Sir Slash on February 16, 2023, 10:45:39 PMIt's so bad that people trying to commit suicide don't even lie down on the train tracks anymore, cause they're hardly ever on them. :shocked:
Knock it off with the suicide jokes. There are a lot of people out there who are struggling daily, mentally unwell, and don't necessarily have good access to the proper help that they need.
This video makes me woozy. Someone tosses a rock into a creek and some, uh, very unhealthy looking stuff crops up.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/114ksf1/residents_of_east_palestine_ohio_are_being_told/
Supposedly here in semi-upstate NY the rain we had today was heavily acidified from what happened in Ohio :grumpy:
Quote from: Gusington on February 17, 2023, 02:48:39 PMSupposedly here in semi-upstate NY the rain we had today was heavily acidified from what happened in Ohio :grumpy:
Given the level of smoke coming from the burn off, I would suggest there was some nasty incomplete combustion of the chemical involved.
Burning vinyl chloride produces a lot of nasty byproducts. Hydrogen chloride is one. Once an HCL molecule binds with water, it produces hydrochloric acid so acid rain and acidic waterways is to be expected.
awesome :angry:
https://www.lex18.com/news/covering-the-nation/cincinnati-closing-ohio-river-water-intakes-to-prevent-contamination-from-east-palestine-derailment
So it wasn't the county that declared the water in East Palestine safe. Those results haven't even come in yet.
It was a company contracted by Norfolk Southern.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ohio-train-disaster-water-sampling_n_63ef034be4b022eb3e35e585?92b (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ohio-train-disaster-water-sampling_n_63ef034be4b022eb3e35e585?92b)
These symptom descriptions are effing horrifying. Holy crap.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/slowly-dying-residents-weird-symptoms-weeks-after-train-derailment-and-explosion/news-story/106e190eb81876dc05ac668c0702f775
Quote"My voice sounds like Mickey Mouse. My normal voice is low. It's hard to breathe, especially at night. My chest hurts so much at night I feel like I'm drowning. I cough up phlegm a lot. I lost my job because the doctor won't release me to go to work."
Jesus.
Quote from: al_infierno on February 26, 2023, 07:48:16 PMThese symptom descriptions are effing horrifying. Holy crap.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/slowly-dying-residents-weird-symptoms-weeks-after-train-derailment-and-explosion/news-story/106e190eb81876dc05ac668c0702f775
Quote"My voice sounds like Mickey Mouse. My normal voice is low. It's hard to breathe, especially at night. My chest hurts so much at night I feel like I'm drowning. I cough up phlegm a lot. I lost my job because the doctor won't release me to go to work."
Fired because you're sick... that's fucked up!
Truly awful.
^And highly illegal.
Highly. There ought to be a law.
Many peoples' hearts have grown cold. Absolutely disgusting.
A million sarcastic comments are popping into my mind, but I suspect most of them would be misunderstood. Apparently the East Palestine derailment trumped the Chinese Balloons as the next great threat to America in the news cycle. Corporations pollute our world in a million different ways--I'm not so sure why this particular train derailment has everybody so exercised.
I wonder what will be next? A second invasion of Murder Hornets? Chinese-made cell phone components that might, under very specific circumstances, cause long-term impotence? Or perhaps a previously undiscovered affiliation between the NHL and anonymous Russian oligarchs?
I get how this is very serious news to the people living near the accident. Aside from the corporate malfeasance angle, I don't get why it's transfixed the American attention span for so long.
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on February 27, 2023, 10:19:44 PMCorporations pollute our world in a million different ways--I'm not so sure why this particular train derailment has everybody so exercised.
Have you followed the thread and seen the images of the gigantic plumes of black, toxic smoke spewing into the atmosphere in a massive radius? This is far from an ordinary example of corporate pollution, this is one of the worst ecological disasters in North American history, if not the worst.
Right. This is kind of like an American version of Chernobyl.
I can understand why some people might think, "What's the big deal?" with this derailment. The media hasn't been giving it the attention they would give to any train wreck that would rivet people to the tv.
^The paranoid part of me thinks that lack of media coverage is intentional.
I guess I've grown so weary of the media trumpeting every little thing that comes along as a new and pending disaster that I've not paid THAT much attention to this.
The train company's behavior seems to have been pretty appalling, and I get the environmental problems, but do we really any idea how much this is going to affect people's health outside the immediate area? I've heard a long list of nasty potential side effects, but cancer has been the only life-threatening condition that I've heard, and nobody's been talking incidence rates for any of those side effects.
I guess I just view media today as selling fear and outrage. Anything else contained in their product--including facts--is purely coincidental. It makes it a lot harder to figure out what's going on in the world.
Or in East Palestine, OH and that stretch of PA that is only a few hundred yards away...
Quote from: Gusington on February 28, 2023, 10:02:41 AM^The paranoid part of me thinks that lack of media coverage is intentional.
There has certainly been no lack of media coverage in Ohio!
And the black smoke is from a purposely set fire. The tanks were going to explode and spew the toxic chemicals all over town. I believe burning off the chemicals was believed to be a way to reduce the toxicity of the chemicals. Everybody was supposed to evacuate from the direction the smoke was blowing.
I'm thinking cancer as a long-term side effect is bad enough by itself. You can expect other side effects to people and animals, and thus back to people again, for many years to come. And then there's the Ohio River which may deliver contamination to half the Mid-Atlantic. But, yeah, as soon as the fire's out, the TV cameras tend to go elsewhere.
I expect every Personal Injury Attorney worth their salt is already on their way to East Palestine.
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on February 27, 2023, 10:19:44 PMCorporations pollute our world in a million different ways--I'm not so sure why this particular train derailment has everybody so exercised.
I wonder what will be next? A second invasion of Murder Hornets? Chinese-made cell phone components that might, under very specific circumstances, cause long-term impotence? Or perhaps a previously undiscovered affiliation between the NHL and anonymous Russian oligarchs?
I get how this is very serious news to the people living near the accident. Aside from the corporate malfeasance angle, I don't get why it's transfixed the American attention span for so long.
The magnitude of the event? The long-lasting aftereffects like increased cancer and mortality rates and birth defects? The role deregulation has played into this? The fact that 1000s of absolutely innocent people are directly and tragicly affected?
Quote from: Gusington on February 28, 2023, 10:02:41 AM^The paranoid part of me thinks that lack of media coverage is intentional.
I'm in the same camp as you.
Quote from: W8taminute on February 28, 2023, 12:51:27 PMQuote from: Gusington on February 28, 2023, 10:02:41 AM^The paranoid part of me thinks that lack of media coverage is intentional.
I'm in the same camp as you.
Given the politicized nature of media these days.... sure, why not?
Quote from: Windigo on February 28, 2023, 12:07:48 PMQuote from: FarAway Sooner on February 27, 2023, 10:19:44 PMCorporations pollute our world in a million different ways--I'm not so sure why this particular train derailment has everybody so exercised.
I wonder what will be next? A second invasion of Murder Hornets? Chinese-made cell phone components that might, under very specific circumstances, cause long-term impotence? Or perhaps a previously undiscovered affiliation between the NHL and anonymous Russian oligarchs?
I get how this is very serious news to the people living near the accident. Aside from the corporate malfeasance angle, I don't get why it's transfixed the American attention span for so long.
The magnitude of the event? The long-lasting aftereffects like increased cancer and mortality rates and birth defects? The role deregulation has played into this? The fact that 1000s of absolutely innocent people are directly and tragicly affected?
Not to mention the nearly 45,000 animals that have died (so far) as a result of the derailment. The ecological cost and human suffering will be felt for decades.
That's gonna end up being a dead town like those coal-mining towns where the seams caught on fire and are still burning decades later...
^Centralia, PA?
A train derailment one county over from where I live today (Manatee County). Also containing hazardous materials, no nuke orders yet. :HideEyes:
Have we heard any reports of the incidence rates for these dire developments that are being forecast? The only permanent one mentioned in the initial report I heard was cancer. The others were bad, really unpleasant, but more in a class with explosive diarrhea.
I'm not saying it's not a huge problem for the people who live nearby. I'm not even saying it's not a huge problem for others. But comparing it to Chernobyl (which the WHO estimates caused about 9,000 cancer fatalities) based on a list of possible side effects just seems like we're going off half-cocked.
Media sells fear. If there's fear to be sold and a story to generate outrage, one side or the other of the mainstream media establishment will tell it.
I'm not saying that there's nothing to see here. I'm just looking to see if anybody has specifics besides a list of the possible side effects.
^Part of the issue is the absence of media coverage since it happened.
True that! Chernobyl caused thousands of people to leave their homes and possessions at a moments notice and never return. The site will be contaminated for a thousand years or so. East Palestine will remain contaminated for decades likely, and people will still live there though much of the area will be virtually unlivable for much of that. In the end, the higher Death Toll we won't know for many years.
In one case the government the people rely on tells them, 'Don't go there ever again' and the other, 'It's perfectly safe to stay right where you are. Don't worry about it'. Which is worse? I don't know but we will figure it out in a generation or two.
The EPA Administrator is now threatening Norfolk-Southern with massive fines if they don't completely clean-up the site so I guess all that money they threw at politicians didn't go very far.
But the train went pretty far after NS threw money at Congress not to have to install that braking system! ;)
(If I recall correctly, however, the new braking system wouldn't have helped in this case...? Can't recall where I read that.)
On a totally useless dry humor, linguistically it amuses me every time to see the name "Norfolk" (North-folk) "Southern". I realize it's a coincidence, but it makes me think of North Suffolk or East West TN (near the TN River).
The Washington Post ran an article that their investigation showed none of the De-Regulation actions taken would have had any effect in preventing the derailment. That was over the weekend I think.
They're saying now it was a faulty Ball-Bearing that overheated that caused the accident. Ironic that one tiny ball bearing could cause such a massive accident isn't it? :shocked:
Quote from: Sir Slash on March 01, 2023, 10:42:40 AMThe Washington Post ran an article that their investigation showed none of the De-Regulation actions taken would have had any effect in preventing the derailment. That was over the weekend I think.
They're saying now it was a faulty Ball-Bearing that overheated that caused the accident. Ironic that one tiny ball bearing could cause such a massive accident isn't it? :shocked:
Ball bearing failure leads to overheating, overheating leads to wheel and axel failure. Axel failure equals derailment. Totally foreseeable and preventable with proper maintence schedules. Also railways have thermal cameras along the tracks to detect this sort of overheating thing. My understanding is that they ignored the warning signs. Not good practice when hauling dangerous goods.
Oh, right, I posted that WaPo article upthread! :uglystupid2:
Also, the report I read (elsewhere) indicated that the temperature sensors did exactly what they were set to do, and the engineer started stopping the train the moment the temperature alarm signaled over the safe limit. The implication was that the safe limit was set too high.
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 01, 2023, 11:32:26 AMOh, right, I posted that WaPo article upthread! :uglystupid2:
Also, the report I read (elsewhere) indicated that the temperature sensors did exactly what they were set to do, and the engineer started stopping the train the moment the temperature alarm signaled over the safe limit. The implication was that the safe limit was set too high.
or the delay in recieving the data was too long, I read somewhere that the readings were somewhat inaccurate too
'somewhat'
If you take the, 'me' out of somewhat, you get, "So What". That's the March 1st Parental Lesson for today. :nono2:
:Dreamer:
So there was a fire at a metal manufacturing factory in Cleveland today. On February 20th there was another fire at a metal manufacturing factory in Ohio.
There was an explosion or fire somewhere in Florida yesterday.
There really seems to be a lot of unfortunate accidents happening all the time every day in the United States lately. I'm sure it's nothing though.
I'm not worried. I got Krispy Kremes and beer. What else does a man need? :azn:
It's probably a result of overstrained maintenance/safety problems since the pandemic. Most factories, whether food or otherwise, are notoriously unsafe metallo-chemical bombs waiting to go off. My family owned one for decades; I'm still sitting here this morning (still helping train a replacement for my position).
I mean, it COULD be other things, in a combination with that; but the combination of factors would definitely include upscaling and stacking danger from kind-of-unavoidable slapdashery in the current circumstances.
A trust fund kiddo.... I knew it. :evil:
THAT'S what I need! -- wait, I may be too old for a trust fund, nvm, I need an inheritance instead.
Thank you for your metallurgical service Jason. :thank_you2:
In our case, hazardous chemicals.
Mostly for water and wastewater applications.
Like the polyvinyl chlorides in one of those train cars, but mostly not that bad.
(.....yes, okay, hazardous metals are also hazardous chemicals, strictly speaking, especially if not in a solid state.)
www.dyerfiberglass.com :azn:
The chemicals are inert by the time they leave us -- unless the enclosures catch on fire, maybe. So far, has never been a problem.
^This explains...everything
Ahhh... So Pratt was the original Toxic Avenger. I will have to treat him with more respect around here. :bow:
A lot of my posts over the years have originated from here! (Including this one this morning.)
Only one of the chemicals here is really dangerous in its raw state -- it's basically a promoted hydrogen peroxide (the stuff you use on your cuts to kill infection) -- plus some acetone which isn't quite as bad -- but you wouldn't want to drink any of our hazchems, much less set them on fire.
Having said that -- and getting back to the topic more-or-less -- not long ago the EPA warned that the need to use poly-carbon-fluorines and chlorines in modern day materials, is leading to an unexpected problem, precisely because these chemicals end up relatively inert, which means they can't be easily modified by common chemicals (whether organic or inorganic) in the environment.
A colorful example is how mold and even moss likes to grow on gelcoat, not because it's eating the gelcoat but because dirt lands on the gelcoat and just sits there providing a basis for plants to grow over time. But a more commonly known concept is that these items aren't biodegradable: they're forever chemicals. (So for a popular example think of plastic soda-can rings killing sea animals.)
At first people expected this meant the chemicals are harmless, once produced -- although often very harmful before production and/or if ever oxidized rapidly like through burning (the train derailment being the immediate example here). Also, at a macro-level they can be harmful for not biodegrading at a reasonable rate, such as with those soda-can rings harming sea life.
But now we're discovering that these particles do release from each other in tiny amounts, nanoparticles, which are still mostly-inert but which get into living creatures in a massive number of environmental ways, and settle inertly in areas they REALLY REALLY should not be settling! For example it gets into the grain we eat which also gets into the animals we eat which eat grain, and gets metabolized into us.
The short version is that we're poisoning ourselves, whether the short way or the long way, or both ways, by using these polymers.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/20-norfolk-southern-train-cars-derail-in-springfield-ohio
A Norfolk Southern train derailed in Ohio on Friday, springing authorities into clean-up duty—again—and residents fearful for their safety.
The derailment occurred near state Route 41 in Springfield just before 5 p.m., according to WHIO. Of the train's 212 cars, about 20 derailed, with four containing residual amounts of diesel exhaust fuel and polyacrylamide water solution. It led to a temporary shelter-in-place order for nearby residents that was lifted early Saturday morning.
The train derailment is the company's third in the nation since early February, when 38 cars of a Norfolk Southern train derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, on Feb. 3. Some of the train's cars burned for days, sending toxic chemicals into the air and water supply and making clean-up crews sick as they responded. The incident forced emergency responses from officials in Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania, and forced residents within a mile of the site to evacuate.
Officials have removed more than 700 tons of contaminated soil and almost two million gallons of liquid from the site so far, according to NPR.
A second derailment happened on Feb. 16 outside of Detroit, with four Norfolk Southern rail cars tipping over. One of the train's cars contained liquid chlorine, but it was far removed from the four derailed cars and was one of the first ones sequestered once authorities responded, according to WHIO.
Jesus Christ, Norfolk Southern :undecided:
Quote from: Gusington on March 05, 2023, 05:11:58 PMJesus Christ, Norfolk Southern :undecided:
Is that the origin of the US expression : things are going South ?
^It is now.
In 2022, Norfolk Southern reported $4.8 billion in profits on $12.7 billion in operating railroad revenue. It was a record-setting year for the company. Make of that what you will.
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/news/norfolk-southern-reports-q4-and-full-year-2022-results.html
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on March 06, 2023, 09:40:22 AMIn 2022, Norfolk Southern reported $4.8 billion in profits on $12.7 billion in operating railroad revenue. It was a record-setting year for the company. Make of that what you will.
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/news/norfolk-southern-reports-q4-and-full-year-2022-results.html
Nothing says profit over people when they are paying their stockholders $7.5 billion and the residents of East Palestine $6.5 million.
A human and environmental tragedy means it's the cost of doing business to NS.
"Railway Operating Revenue" and "Revenue from Railway Operations", isn't that the same thing? Anyway, the first was 13% and the second, 5%. So maybe a total of 18%? Nice profits but it hardly classifies them as Robber Barons. Or criminals. Their successful or failed Clean-Up program, directed by the EPA at every step, will.
If their operations are safe or un-safe that's a different matter and should be scrutinized thoroughly. As should all transportation systems currently in use. Open, fair investigations should follow and the results be made public for all. If it's all about the, 'Bengamins', we should know.
Not exactly, Groggy. The $7.5B is their Railroad Operating Expense. Profits, also called "margin", "net income", "earnings", or a couple other names that all involve various footnotes to make it clear, was $4.8B.
Their "operating" profit margin is $4.8 / $12.7 = 38% or so after rounding. "Operating" margin is profit excluding big one-time events (e.g., revenue from selling off a bunch of their freight cars and locomotives, expenses from buying a new company, etc.). Firms are required to publish full profitability as well, but they often use "operating" numbers to try to get rid of background noise and make it easier to do year-over-year comparisons.
I'd need to look at their financial statement, rather than just their earnings announcement, but that $4.7B number is probably earnings before dividends, interest and taxes (companies are taxed on profit, and the rest goes back to shareholders as either reinvestments in the company (e.g., new tech, new rolling stock, etc.) or as dividends (paid out directly to stockholders in the form of cash).
Payment to debt holders complicates things somewhat, but I'll try not to take us down the Accounting Rabbit Hole unless anybody wants to go. All you need to know is that a 37% profit margin is extremely healthy for almost any business.
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on March 06, 2023, 01:08:12 PMNot exactly, Groggy. The $7.5B is their Railroad Operating Expense. Profits, also called "margin", "net income", "earnings", or a couple other names that all involve various footnotes to make it clear, was $4.8B.
Their "operating" profit margin is $4.8 / $12.7 = 38% or so after rounding. "Operating" margin is profit excluding big one-time events (e.g., revenue from selling off a bunch of their freight cars and locomotives, expenses from buying a new company, etc.). Firms are required to publish full profitability as well, but they often use "operating" numbers to try to get rid of background noise and make it easier to do year-over-year comparisons.
I'd need to look at their financial statement, rather than just their earnings announcement, but that $4.7B number is probably earnings before dividends, interest and taxes (companies are taxed on profit, and the rest goes back to shareholders as either reinvestments in the company (e.g., new tech, new rolling stock, etc.) or as dividends (paid out directly to stockholders in the form of cash).
Payment to debt holders complicates things somewhat, but I'll try not to take us down the Accounting Rabbit Hole unless anybody wants to go. All you need to know is that a 37% profit margin is extremely healthy for almost any business.
That is an excellent P/E ratio. Just saying....
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on March 06, 2023, 01:08:12 PMNot exactly, Groggy. The $7.5B is their Railroad Operating Expense. Profits, also called "margin", "net income", "earnings", or a couple other names that all involve various footnotes to make it clear, was $4.8B.
Their "operating" profit margin is $4.8 / $12.7 = 38% or so after rounding. "Operating" margin is profit excluding big one-time events (e.g., revenue from selling off a bunch of their freight cars and locomotives, expenses from buying a new company, etc.). Firms are required to publish full profitability as well, but they often use "operating" numbers to try to get rid of background noise and make it easier to do year-over-year comparisons.
I'd need to look at their financial statement, rather than just their earnings announcement, but that $4.7B number is probably earnings before dividends, interest and taxes (companies are taxed on profit, and the rest goes back to shareholders as either reinvestments in the company (e.g., new tech, new rolling stock, etc.) or as dividends (paid out directly to stockholders in the form of cash).
Payment to debt holders complicates things somewhat, but I'll try not to take us down the Accounting Rabbit Hole unless anybody wants to go. All you need to know is that a 37% profit margin is extremely healthy for almost any business.
The railroad operating expenses are $7.9 billion dollars not $7.5 billion.
You are correct, sir. Sorry for the sloppy math.
Just saw a news article that a building in NYC collapsed. There was also another explosion in Ohio.
Another Norfolk Southern Train Derails as CEO Testifies to Congress. :HideEyes:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/norfolk-southern-train-derails-in-alabama-as-ceo-eric-shaw-testifies-to-congress
A Norfolk Southern train derailed in Alabama on Thursday—at the same time the company's CEO Eric Shaw was testifying to Congress about the toxic East Palestine train derailment. Around 30 empty train cars came off the tracks in Calhoun County, local reports said, and no one was injured. There's no risk of hazardous materials in the Alabama derailment, according to the county sheriff.
Quote from: Pete Dero on March 09, 2023, 04:41:31 PMAnother Norfolk Southern Train Derails as CEO Testifies to Congress. :HideEyes:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/norfolk-southern-train-derails-in-alabama-as-ceo-eric-shaw-testifies-to-congress
A Norfolk Southern train derailed in Alabama on Thursday—at the same time the company's CEO Eric Shaw was testifying to Congress about the toxic East Palestine train derailment. Around 30 empty train cars came off the tracks in Calhoun County, local reports said, and no one was injured. There's no risk of hazardous materials in the Alabama derailment, according to the county sheriff.
A private railway who lobbied for safety deregulation derailed again. Shocker.
Remember the Ford Pinto? Executives let the design go ahead because the bean counters said it would be cheaper to deal with the lawsuits then it would be to redesign the car.
Well I am thinking this is the thinking here. Regardless this is criminal in my mind.
It's only criminal if the prosecutor can get a conviction.
Otherwise it's just a business cost.
The whole prosecution/legal side of things in America seem way too political for consistent success against corporate decisions that malevolently put profits before public interests.
I agree, example...Bankmanfried. :hair:
In today's episode of Earth: The Sitcom...
Truck carrying 40,000 pounds of toxic soil from East Palestine train derailment site crashes on highway
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-truck-carrying-40000-pounds-of-toxic-soil-crashes-on-highway/
Wasn't that the plot for, "Toxic Avenger"? I forget.
'Jesus F*cking Christ, 'Murica'
That is... Impressive.