I'll kickstart some Friday/weekend wargaming conversation:
Any players of AH's classic "Third Reich" out there? I first saw/played this game when I was about 14 or 15. I doubt that we played it correctly in our group but I always enjoyed the gatherings. Lately, I've had an urge to do some WWII ETO. Third Reich crossed my mind but I hadn't looked at the rules in years and from what I remembered back then, it was very complex. I looked at other options, WiF, SPI's ETO (which I picked up a copy), Totaler Krieg II. There's others, including the new "The War: Europe 1939-1945" but they looked really large and complex. Well, I fired up my PC copy of "Third Reich PC" while also having the rules next to me. I followed along with the sequence of play (a bit difficult on the computer game as it goes over things quickly, but it does work). I feel that I now have a pretty good grasp on the majority of the rules. I have a physical copy of the game that I plan on solo'ing this weekend. What I like about Third Reich - the moves. Some people hate chess and games that play like it. I love it. I love that there are devised "opening moves" and set ups for attacking Poland, France, etc. I bore easily with east front/west front games that have 100's of units where you simply keep adjusting your lines and using soak-off attacks. Rinse and repeat. Boring!
Has anybody played (with success) the Advanced Third Reich version? If so, what are your thoughts on it as compared to Classic Third Reich?
There's of course VASSAL modules for the various flavors of Third Reich and from what I've read on the Geek, it's a great game to pbem. Perhaps we could get a 3 or 4 player pbem game going with some Groghead's?
I know that you WiF players are out there. I have the "Final Edition" of that game but that rulebook really does scare me. ASL I can wrap my head around, WiF confounds me. Tell me that it's easier than it looks! And tell me that I really do get used to those "Steel" mountains that you see on the map.
Totaler Krieg (II more so than I, which I also have) has a very distinct following. Any TKII players out there? I understand that it's strong point is drift away from historical norms; it goes outside of the box a good bit depending on drawn random events.
I have AP's "John Prados' Third Reich" as well. I've redrawn that map and started the rules. The "bucket o' dice" combat system doesn't bother me, but I recall reading of a very big flaw with the system that I can't recall at the moment. Something that was a game-stopper for me and I haven't gone back to the rulebook for it. Maybe I'm mistaken here?
Others? "The War"? It's new and has some good ratings on the Geek. I think it's more of a 4+ players game however. Is it worth the $100 and would it be enjoyable with just 2 people? How complex is it?
Let's talk some WWII ETO - what's your thoughts? I'm open to some PC Game suggestions here as well. Sell me on Strategic Command Global; even if it uses squares. Grigsby monsters worth the effort? I rather enjoy Third Reich PC, though it was dogged in the reviews (even back in '98 or so). Clash of Steel is still fun, if not overly-simplistic. Any others that you'd recommend?
I'll throw this in there as well:
Does gaming WWII ETO bore you or are you tired of it? "Invade Poland, invade Denmark, invade the Low Countries. Do I mess with Sweeden or go into France? Go for England or straight into Russia next? Do I even worry about N. Africa? I never take Spain, won't even go there. Does it all really matter anyways because as soon as the U.S. enters, it's all downhill!". Is that you when it comes to gaming WWII ETO? If so, what would it take to get you back into some WWII ETO gaming?
I think AH's Third Reich was my 3rd real wargame, after Luftwaffe and then Squad Leader.
I play my board copy so much the counters are faded at the edges.... then came computer games and university and no time or space to play the board game version.
I also had the PC version which I played for a bit but it didn't grab me the way the board game did.
Never tried the "Advanced" version or the A World at War version craziness.
I have the 4th/5th edition of WiF. I've tried several times to learn to play solo and failed.... so it's not just you.
Never tried AP's 3rd Reich.
I'd like to try Decision Games War in Europe PC game. Tried the demo and like it alot but they don't have a download verion of the full game. Also it is only MP, no AI.
http://shop.decisiongames.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2100
If you get a MP game of AH's 3rd Reich together,any version, I'd be up for that. OR maybe I can be convinced to buy the "mailed to me" copy of War in Europe to play MP.
PS you post about playing 3rd Reich earlier this week got me wanting to play a good strat level game again..... 8)
I worked with Karl (forget his last name) on DG's War in Europe PC game. I did some map mods for it and was on the playtesting team. I'll connect with you later after I get home about getting a copy to you (for extending demo'ing purposes of course!). I like it - wish that it had an AI - but I did enjoy pbem'ing it the few times that I did despite it having too many units for my tastes and also having that "keep those lines moving" attack, move, attack, rinse-repeat sequence.
Do you know what I love best about this PC conversion though? The CRT and how it shows the odds column and the roller that goes up/down the column like a casino slot machine before settling on the final result. I wish more PC wargames had that!
Cool.. thanks! 8)
I just remembered that never actually played 3rd Reich against another person... ever! Hmmm... I also remember playing with out the 2x defence on clear hexes rule. Made the game non-fluid.
But I haven't played in like 25 years so who knows..... :D
The more I think about this, i realy need to dig that game out and re-learn the rules... maybe the right way this time... :P
It's a classic for a reason - really a brilliant game IMHO. A 3:1 attack is iffy since every unit is worth its weight in gold. Go for the 3:1 with a good chance that you'll take some losses? Do you take those losses in land units or the air units that provided CAS? Getting cut off from supply is BRUTAL! How about getting Axis down to N. Africa with all those chances for interception? (SR them is the answer there). Such a cool game!
I haven't played AH Advanced Third Reich for over 25 years now but I still have the game. What I really liked about it vs. vanilla Third Reich is the diplomacy options. Combat is more or less the same but the map is slightly larger and more detailed. IIRC there were some neat modifications made to the strategic warfare aspects of the game as well. I'll have to dig my copy out of my parents basement the next time I visit them.
I also own SPI's WWII ETO. I prefer playing this game over Advanced Third Reich however because it's a tad more complex but not overwhelmingly so. Individual capital ships are represented as well as individual generals. I love the production model as well as the OOB by year which dictates what units are available in your production pool. The combat system is more detailed than Advanced Third Reich as well.
For an even more thrilling experience I recommend it's sister game WWII PTO which I also own.
I've downloaded the updated and indexed rules for SPI's ETO and from what I've read so far, I really like it. That's my next big adventure.
Tonight I set up the 1939 game of Third Reich and started a solo play. I could of done it via VASSAL but it's just so much more enjoyable when you actually lay out the mapboards and pick the counters out and set it all up. You can then step back and see the entire theater at once. The disadvantage is having our kitten roaming around downstairs. Even though I've strategically placed plexiglass and other obstacles to prevent him from getting up on the game table, I just know that he's dying to go explore up there so no telling what I'll find in the morning. I'm imagining some type of cover made of cardboard or some other light material that I can use to cover the entire table. Any ideas on that?
After looking at the table from GeekChic, I've been thinking of building something similar, only much simpler.
You just need a table that has a raised edge of about 2". Then you can make panels that bridge the gap to act as a cover while you're not there.
If you already have a table that you don't mind modifying it should be easy to attach some side pieces and buy a few panels as covers.
Then the cat can walk on it with out worry of going through it. Also pretty kid and cleaning lady proof. 8)
That's a good idea on the table. I currently have two of these tables downstairs for gaming...
I could get a couple of 2" strips of pine wood and make a border that would fit on the edge of the table and then get some lightweight paneling that could go over the top. I'll have to make a run to the hardware store today to see what I can come up with.
So I started my Third Reich game (boardgame version) last night and got into the Poland invasion a bit. I'm still bouncing around in the rulebook quite a bit but it should ease up after a few turns.
Ha! That's my current gaming table as well.
Just negotiated a room swap with my wife, her large office in the basement for my small sunny office on the ground floor. I'll have more room and can finally build my dream table.
When I finally get my lazy ass in gear and build the damn thing I'll post a pic.... don't hold yer breath though... :P
Aye, but Barth, will it be ready for 'Desert Heat'?
Quote from: Barthheart on April 06, 2013, 01:28:51 PM
Ha! That's my current gaming table as well.
Just negotiated a room swap with my wife, her large office in the basement for my small sunny office on the ground floor. I'll have more room and can finally build my dream table.
When I finally get my lazy ass in gear and build the damn thing I'll post a pic.... don't hold yer breath though... :P
Look forward to see the pictures.
Quote from: bob48 on April 06, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
Aye, but Barth, will it be ready for 'Desert Heat'?
Nah, doubt I'll have even completed the room swap by then.... :P
Apparently GMT has just placed A World at War on their 2013 production calendar. Amazing news considering it is still far short on P500 orders.
http://www.gmtgames.com/news.aspx?showarticle=266
A World at War combines Advanced Third Reich and Empire of the Rising Sun in one box. I understand this version has tons of detail and chrome added compared to the originals. Extra large table not included.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7614/a-world-at-war
I would love to play this puppy some day, but what are the odds. Then again, those odds are going to be much worse if I don't pick it up ;)
I don't think I can do Third Reich. Have you considered something more operational and in print?
I'd be interested in trying something D-Day related. I'm fairly sure everything you need to play The Longest Day by Vassal is floating around on the net, and that lends itself well to team play...
I had almost forgotten that GMT has a new ETO game on the P500 list - "The Supreme Commander" http://www.gmtgames.com/p-278-the-supreme-commander.aspx
Moderate complexity and solitare suitable. I've been following it on CSW and like what I've seen. Plus Charlie Kibler is doing the map so that was an instant buy for me.
Re: Longest Day - never played that beast, I'll have to go dig up the rules and have a look
I played Longest Day back when it was new. 4 of us played the entire campaign setup on my friends pool table. His Dad was not impressed that we had it there for months.
Really good game but it took forever to play. Definitely needs to be done as teams or you easily forget troops.
Oh heck yes Bart. I played it as well, back in the day. I think all the charts and whatnot took up as much space as the maps.
Quote from: GJK on April 06, 2013, 11:54:18 PM
I had almost forgotten that GMT has a new ETO game on the P500 list - "The Supreme Commander" http://www.gmtgames.com/p-278-the-supreme-commander.aspx
Moderate complexity and solitare suitable. I've been following it on CSW and like what I've seen. Plus Charlie Kibler is doing the map so that was an instant buy for me.
The Supreme Commander looks like fun alright.
I wonder what makes it so suitable for solo play if it is designed for multi-player? To my way of thinking, a game that ranks its self 10 out of 10 for solitaire play ought to fully support solo mode of play.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 07, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
I played Longest Day back when it was new. 4 of us played the entire campaign setup on my friends pool table. His Dad was not impressed that we had it there for months.
Really good game but it took forever to play. Definitely needs to be done as teams or you easily forget troops.
That is on my gaming bucket list.
The rules for TLD are relatively short and pretty simple to digest (from what I looked at thus far)
MMP is also re-printing the SCS game The Mighty Endeavour (http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Products/tabid/58/ProductID/233/Default.aspx) which I've heard good things about.
I have the original "Mighty Endeavor". A solid game; I like Dean Essig designs for the most part. My only real gripe with the game was that the German set up is static meaning that the German player has no say so in the placement of defenses in France. I would of liked it to of been something more along the lines of "Fortress Europa" with the military districts that you could freely set up within. I suppose that could be house-ruled however. The expansion will be a nice edition but not sure if I will spring for it or not.
Meanwhile, I scored a copy of "Advanced Third Reich" (not yet shipped) and also got the Third Reich Player's guide and the Battleplan magazine that has several variants in it. Reading the players guide, the first article summed up what it is that I enjoy about Third Reich (though it may be a turn-off for others):
"The result of a 2-1 (attack) in nearly all cases is a forgone conclusion; the attacker will capture the hex, and all that has to be settled is the price the defender exacts for the capture of that hex. This makes THIRD REICH almost a perfect information game like chess, reducing the effect of the die roll on actual combat to a minimum, and allowing quite complex maneuvers to be executed with confidence."
Another sharp looking ETO map:
http://www.gmtgames.com/us/USE_Map_2012-12-07-Preview.jpg
from GMT's upcoming title Unconditional Surrender
That map (and the playing time) are two reasons why I chose The Supreme Commander to P500 instead of this one. Is it me or does Europe look stretched (width wise) on that map? Looks very "World in Flames - final edition"ish to me also (much prefer the classic look of WiF v1-4).
Yes, The Supreme Commander map is prettier than Unconditional Surrender, and doesn't appear as deformed.
On the topic of sweet looking euro maps, Euro Front (Columbia Games) has one of the best. Euro Front is another monster that I would dearly love to play...but realize my odds of finding a local opponent rank right up there with winning the lottery.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcf.geekdo-images.com%2Fimages%2Fpic148177_lg.jpg&hash=8dc0fde2ab181a65143edeb5b69fe4b27123d270)
Agreed- that is one of the best that I've ever seen for an ETO game. I've never played a block game and wouldn't mind trying it some day. I've priced Euro-front and it's just too much to spend on a game format (blocks) that I've never tried before. I'll have to see if anybody in our local gaming group has a copy and wouldn't mind teaching a newb.
If you are seriously interested in Euro Front and want to kick the tires consider picking up a used copy of the orginal East Front (I). It is the exact same game as East Front II, but with a smaller map and much smaller price tag (Euro Front is a combination of East Front II and West Front II). You'll be hard pressed to find a better wargaming system anywhere. Even in the BGG universe it is ranks @ 8.15 / 10
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/22143/eastfront-ii
I own East Front & FAB The Bulge (another excellent block game) and I can link you to the rule books for either one if you're ever in the mood to try a block game via Vassal. A computer version of East Front is available from Columbia games which provides rule enforcement, however, it is very old and I have not been able to get the demo to run on Windows 7. I also own a copy of Block in the East but have yet to dig into that one.
You just reminded me about the computer version East Front. Funny but I found that if you install the demo and then install the patch, it becomes the full version. I found that out quite by mistake. I even did a map mod for it. I'll have to see if I can find it on my harddrive.
I might take you up on the offer to VASSAL EFII. Let me get my Third Reich/A3R fix out of the way and then I'll send you a note.
I played - and enjoyed - the AH 3rd Reich quite a few times growing up.
I've heard mixed reviews about the AP version, but I do really, really like the graphic updates of the new AP game (especially the counter art).
There are times when I wish the map was slightly re-scaled and gave you more room to maneuver through Western Europe, and less of the vast, unused reaches of Russia.
I will say that I've tried a variety of gambits just to see if history plays out differently if you try something else. Don't invade Poland and go straight for France, or have Italians invade France first just to draw fire. Why not go for more of Scandinavia than just Norway? You can actually ignore a lot of the Balkans and got straight for Russia if you want, and a southern drive along the Polish-Romanian border ends up really f'n' with the Russians, because they either eat the tip of your spear, or they invade Romania to flank you and bring Romania in on your side.
As the Brits, there's nothing stopping you from invading Holland and trying to keep a hold on the continent, and it can really screw with the Germans - you might lose anyway, but you'll cripple their eastern attack because they finally get annoyed with you and send about 6 Panzer Divs (waaaaaaaay overkill) just to quit poking around at you.
Interesting gambits, Brant.
I used to own a copy of the original version, many moons ago, and it brings back some good gaming memories. Seeing the new version does give me the urge to reach for the much abused credit card, but I shall resist and maintain a stiff upper lip, (and a weak flabby mind).
I'd really like to get a WW2 Europe game going, but Third Reich is just too much for me.
I would like to game Normandy at some point. I think I could handle an operational game better than a strategic level ETO.
If we could find a reasonably priced, not too hard to find GMT Normandy game, that would suit me just fine. Get some teams together and do a PMEM Vassal AAR here on the Grogs...yeah, I could be on board with that!
Quote from: Toonces on April 15, 2013, 12:56:14 AM
I'd really like to get a WW2 Europe game going, but Third Reich is just too much for me.
I would like to game Normandy at some point. I think I could handle an operational game better than a strategic level ETO.
If we could find a reasonably priced, not too hard to find GMT Normandy game, that would suit me just fine. Get some teams together and do a PMEM Vassal AAR here on the Grogs...yeah, I could be on board with that!
GMT's Normandy '44 is an absolutely superb game on the subject. Well worth getting if you can.
I hear that Turning Point Stalingrad is also an excellent multiplayer game (switching fronts on this topic).
Back on Third Reich and that style of game, something that I asked a wargaming buddy that I thought might make for an interesting discussion:
I'm reading old messages about Third Reich tactics on CSW and they are talking about taking out Poland on the first turn with a 3:1 attack on Warsaw. I've gotten to where I can take out Poland on the first turn, sometimes with losses and sometimes not, on 3x 2:1 attacks (losses depend on if an exchange result is rolled). I was practicing different opening moves trying to perfect it. Poland will have pretty much the same set up every time, 2x 2-3 units in Warsaw with the two 1-4 air units protecting it and the rest of the units in the six surrounding hexes. That's the kind of wargaming that I like - chess like. Many (most?) wargamers hate that (too scripted!). Fire in the Sky is like that on the Pacific side; very chess like in your procedures. Do you like that style of game or do you prefer the more random type where the luck of the CRT plays a larger role in determining the final outcome? As mentioned, the CRT in Third Reich is a given for the Attacker on any attack at 2:1 odds or greater. You will take the hex. You may or may not suffer losses in doing so however.