Anyone really, but I know Barthheart really digs the LnL tactical games.
So in preparation for me one day getting LnL Tactical system out on the table, I was playing the computer game Heroes of Stalingrad and it reminded me what I found infuriating about the system.
Armour.
It seems so ridiculously useless. I must have had a positive To Hit result less than 25% of the time and much less when it came to checking casualties.
So I get the building security thing - but the game seems to represent infantry being in a building as untouchable.
Can anyone give me reasons why it's represented that way? I mean - yeah - there's some protection (specifically from machine guns) but the main gun? That firing a round into a building would surely at least make most troops bug out?
I just find armour to be somewhat neutered.
OK, a bunch of questions first:
1. You are talking about firing a tank main gun at infantry in a building right?
2. What type of building?
3. Which tank? What is the HE value of the main gun?
4. Was the tank moving before shooting?
In gerneral, I've never felt that tanks were neutered. Small calibre tank shells are not going to have much effect on troops in a stone building. And if I was being fired at by a tank I certainly wouldn't leave the relative safety of solid building for open ground.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 20, 2018, 06:50:39 AM
OK, a bunch of questions first:
1. You are talking about firing a tank main gun at infantry in a building right?
2. What type of building?
3. Which tank? What is the HE value of the main gun?
4. Was the tank moving before shooting?
In gerneral, I've never felt that tanks were neutered. Small calibre tank shells are not going to have much effect on troops in a stone building. And if I was being fired at by a tank I certainly wouldn't leave the relative safety of solid building for open ground.
I can see where this is going to go :buck2:
1. Yes
2. Stone (in this instance) so a +4 modifier
3. Can't recall the tank...I'll have to post tonight
4. Doesn't matter (I mean, yes, a -2 modifier for shooting on the move right? But they just seemed useless in general)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 20, 2018, 07:05:30 AM
I can see where this is going to go :buck2:
...
:D
Again I've never had the feeling that tanks were neutered. I've always felt that infantry should be hard to dig out of a good sturdy building. Tanks vs infnatry in light cover or the open is quite deadly.
Do you feel the same in armour vs armour battles? I think the system shows the relative strengths of different tanks really well. Small calibre guns need to get side or rear shots on thick armour to have a change of doing any damage.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 20, 2018, 07:39:34 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 20, 2018, 07:05:30 AM
I can see where this is going to go :buck2:
...
:D
Again I've never had the feeling that tanks were neutered. I've always felt that infantry should be hard to dig out of a good sturdy building. Tanks vs infnatry in light cover or the open is quite deadly.
Do you feel the same in armour vs armour battles? I think the system shows the relative strengths of different tanks really well. Small calibre guns need to get side or rear shots on thick armour to have a change of doing any damage.
I can't say I've done armour v armour much at all to notice yet.
Regarding your take on armour and dug in infantry, I think what makes it more odd is that a tripod MG42 can have a much better effect than a tank shell...given that a tank shell can collapse walls, floors etc
The way I see it is that it's harder for the tank to hit the right spot in the building (hence the negative to hit mod) but if they do hit, then casualties are nearly assured (no terrain bonus for the damage check roll).
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on April 20, 2018, 03:25:10 PM
The way I see it is that it's harder for the tank to hit the right spot in the building (hence the negative to hit mod) but if they do hit, then casualties are nearly assured (no terrain bonus for the damage check roll).
That's a fair point. I'd forgotten about no terrain bonus.
You know, perhaps I'm just having a bad day with the dice >:D
Grab Tide of Iron. In that game, armor using HE against infantry in strongpoints and buildings gets a huge concussive bonus. Knocks the poor buggers silly and then you can close assault with ease.
How does LnL relate to something like ASL? I understand LnL is a game system regardless of era, but I mean gameplay wise?
It is similarly detailed regarding combined ops?
How does LnL handle airforces?
LnLT is the same scale and focus as ASL. Units are single man units, squads, weapon teams, and individual vehicles. Hex size is 50m across flats. Turns are 2-4 minutes.
There are aircraft, and helos in modern games, and the act similar to air in ASL. There's even a destroyer in Heroes of the Falklands that acts as on board artillery.
Does that answer your question?
Mostly yes. Thanks.
Does it sport VASSAL modules as well?
Yes, and even Tabletop Simulator!
Oh dear..
If one wants to start, but wants to avoid WW2 (I play ASL for that), how would you recommend starting?
Well, what era do you like?
Heroes of the Nam is Vietnam. HotN is where the series actually began. It's scenarios are well done and almost all come down to the last die roll. Low armour count but you get helos, both attack and transport.
Heroes Against the Red 1985 Cold war goes hot. HAtRS is different because the armour is really deadly at the scale of the game. Lotsa armour plus heloes and attack planes.
Heroes of the Falklands is... well... Falkland Island fighting. HotF is fun because it's modern Brits verus the Argies and they are no push over. Medium armour and attack planes.
Day of Heroes is 1993 Mogadishu. DoH is a little different because the map uses squares instead of hexes but because the city is one big grid it works really well. Some Armour and helos.
All are about the same complexity.
Now I want Day of Heroes and Heroes Against the Red
There are also smaller ones covering the Soviets in Afghanistan and the Libyan civil war.
I'm looking forward to seeing those v5 rules. :bd:
I'm going through them now. 336 pages!
Ok, so let's say I buy HotN. Will that be one box containing everything I need? What of this v5 rules? Are they included or does the system work with a seperate rulebook spanning the whole system like ASL?
Everything you need will be in the box but you'll want the X-Maps as well. 5.0 rules combine the WWII and post WWII rules into one fore book and add in a bunch of tutorials and examples as well as consolidating most of the rules found in the various versions of the games.
I see all the Heroes of ... modules at my retailer, but no mention of the v5 rules... Is it a download only?
I don't see the X-Maps as must have. Aren't they just the same maps with larger size hexes?
V5.0 rules aren't out yet. I suspect you'll be able to buy a physical copy if you want. X-Maps are larger versions of the maps but the default maps are tiny!
Well, some of the regular geo-morphic maps are small. I've just used the art from the VASSAL modules and printed them out to fill an 11x17 sheet... pretty much the size of an X-map....
HAtRS and DoH are played on played on larger single maps, 22x30 I think. But there are X-map versions for those as well and they look fantastic.
V5.0 rules will contain most everything in the entire system. There should be download and purchase options. These rules will not show up on boxed games until the current stock is sold out.
The V4.1 rules you get in the games now are just fine to pay with. The new version is more about clarity and lots of examples than changing any of the rules.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on May 01, 2018, 11:54:10 AM
Now I want Day of Heroes and Heroes Against the Red
Day of Heroes is great fun. You get to play a game of Black Hawk Down. :bd:
Thanks for the input so far.
Is the solo rules box worth getting?
Quote from: Yskonyn on May 02, 2018, 02:20:15 PM
Thanks for the input so far.
Is the solo rules box worth getting?
Yes... if you really need to play against someone/thing and hate having to play both sides. It works well but is not an all encompassing device. You still need to setup both sides and sometimes override the AI for very rare non-sensical actions.
If you're fine with playing both sides LnLT works really well because of the impulse system. Action is always switch back and froth.
There's a really good demo package you can try out the game with a walk through to see how it all works.
If you don't want to PnP you can use the demo package with the VASSAL modules and it all works well to show the system.
The free demo is also available on TTS and it's very slick. Gives you a Nam scenario and a US vs. Germans in Normandy scenario to play around with.
I've been interested in this series. Has anyone tried the solo system?
I was wondering how well it worked, especially at that price. It's rare I have an opponent to play against, so if it works well, it would be useful for me.
Here's a video preview of the v5.0 rules....
So how would you rate the replayability factor of LnL?
Quote from: Yskonyn on May 10, 2018, 02:15:24 AM
So how would you rate the replayability factor of LnL?
I find it very replayable. There are tons of scenarios available. But even each scenario is highly replayable because there's really no perfect way to play any of them, lots of tactics and strategies to try out, and almost all of them have nail biter finishes.
With the addition of the Battle Generators your scenario count become almost endless.
All the maps are useable and gepmprphic across the system.
I've been playing the system since 2005, that should say something all by itself.
Also, with all of the mapping/world builder tools out there, it should be easy to create and print new maps for LnL.
Quote from: Barthheart on May 10, 2018, 05:23:55 AM
I've been playing the system since 2005, that should say something all by itself.
You're old.
Lol! Thanks guys. I have first ordered MBT still, because I think I will like it more initially. But LnL will certainly something on my wishlist.
I have the original MBT from AH.... now that makes me old.... :P
Good game too, but light on infantry combat.
You can try LnLT for free.
Download the demo pack here:
https://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lock-n-load-tactical-starter-kit.205/
Then download the VASSAL module for the starter kit if you don't want to print anything:
https://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lock-n-load-tactical-starter-kit-vassal-module.183/
OR the TableTop Simulator module:
https://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lock-n-load-tactical-starter-kit-tabletop-simulator-edition-updated-version.228/
And then download the Walkthrough to help learn the rules:
https://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lnlt-game-play-walkthrough.123/
Thanks Barth. Loaded the Vassal and TTS modules both.
I'll make my way through the walkthrough.
Cheers!
Lots of wargaming going on for me lately!
Most importantly... have fun! O0
Quote from: Barthheart on May 10, 2018, 10:42:55 AM
Most importantly... have fun! O0
No doubt about that! :bd: