American Civil War Games: My interest again peaked....

[smittyohio]

I just dowloaded the 1.5 demo, and tried a sandbox mode game.  I played a brigade commander in a corp-vs-corp game, and was not impressed by the AI or pathfinding.   Both sides pretty much had several large formations converge on a town, and just milled about within firing range of each other not doing anything (I was sent off to the extreme left flank).   Units were stuck in fences near the town...   Maybe it was just a bad setup... a town would probably not be an ideal to try to fight, but it sure thought it should.   Is this typical with sandbox mode, or is it just bad luck?

[Grim.Reaper]

This is an intriguing title from my list about Gettysburg.....actually plays a lot like Command Ops where it is real-time and moves around counters and such.  Only costs $5....below is a link to a demo, however it does have annoying prompts that come up asking you to buy the game.  I have no idea how good the AI is and such, but seems interesting.  Some reason I think this game has been discussed somewhere before, but I might be dreaming it up:)  To be honest, if there was a true Command Ops style civil war game out there that was just as good, would be my dream come true...although this one looks like it, I am going to guess it is far from  it since rarely have heard about it.  Likely doesn't have the ultimate depth, but for $5, what would you expect:)

Demos
Mac - http://www.hendricom.com/downloads/GettysburgOSXIntel.zip
Windows - http://www.hendricom.com/downloads/GettysburgWindows.zip

Site to Buy
http://www.hendricom.com/

[mikeck]

I just dowloaded the 1.5 demo, and tried a sandbox mode game.  I played a brigade commander in a corp-vs-corp game, and was not impressed by the AI or pathfinding.   Both sides pretty much had several large formations converge on a town, and just milled about within firing range of each other not doing anything (I was sent off to the extreme left flank).   Units were stuck in fences near the town...   Maybe it was just a bad setup... a town would probably not be an ideal to try to fight, but it sure thought it should.   Is this typical with sandbox mode, or is it just bad luck?

Can't really say. Sometimes it looks like a mob because the AI doesn't really see "lines". It sees a point that represents a unit and its direction. So when it moves its points that are displayed as lines, those lines overlap. The developers have improved on the shifting a lot but sometimes a regiment will sway back and forth deciding between two units.

Trust me though, this is the appearance. In reality, the Ai knows exactly what it is doing. Try commanding a division using couriers against the AI division...it's tough. I have not won a sandbox game yet while using couriers. If I turn them off so units respond instantly like Total War, I do ok.

You will never see straight battle lines facing each other across a field...but then again, the real battles were a cluster with friendly units firing into the flanks of other friendly units.

The game is designed to simulate command of large armies. It is not really designed to be aesthetically pleasing. If you keep that in mind, it's a fantastic game. I do understand your complaint though as sometimes I have looked at the screen And though "why are these two regiments facing one direction while an enemy regiment is firing at them. Many times, they are seeing something you aren't...it's in the code ( like a unit in the woods) but not displayed for some reason  (fog of war)
Sometimes though, I smack my forehead as a regiment stands there facing an enemy unit doing nothing.
Many people can't get past the appearance of utter randomness and confusion of some sandbox battles and I get it. But if you sit back and play the game as a command simulator where graphics are gravy, you may enjoy it more. For example: you tell Brigade commander Jones to move to The 1st wisconsin's left flank and to attack a specific point in support in 1 hour from a line formation...they will do it. The attack itself may look a bit odd at points... With a regiment hanging back or one facing the wrong way, but generally, the unit will attack as ordered even if it doesn't look like We want.

All of that said, if you want more organization, play a scenario. The scenarios are scripted for a large part (points of attack, counter attack. Etc) although small unit tactical movement never is. Because of this, the battles are much more organized. I suppose because the AI knows where it is supposed to go.

Edit: one more thing. Sometimes u it's will do nothing for a reason. The game calculates how to follow your (or AI) orders base on the stats of the commander. Order Barlow to probe only? Yeah, you can expect him to attack with everything he has and blow up his command. Tell another general to support Barlow's attack and be will do nothing because perhaps historically, the other general was incompetent with little initiative. To us, it looks like the AI is not working. But that's an element of realism. Not always the cause of AI weirdness but its there. I have a few divisions I always use in sandbox because I have come to learn how those generals will follow my orders

[Grim.Reaper]

Played around more with Scourge last night as a brigade....does take patience.  Since your only controlling a small piece of the battle, your not always quickly added to the mayhem, which is very realistic, although people are likely used to always being thrown in right away.  I will continue to give it a go.  It does seem like my brigade is always asked to go sit on the left flank and wait versus direct orders to attack and such...maybe just coincidence.

[Slick Wilhelm]

Grim, have you played "Forge of Freedom" yet? I know you own it, but if you haven't played it yet, you're missing out on one of the best strategy games ever developed for the PC!

[Grim.Reaper]

Grim, have you played "Forge of Freedom" yet? I know you own it, but if you haven't played it yet, you're missing out on one of the best strategy games ever developed for the PC!

I have when it first released, but not sure I ever went back after all the patches were completed.  Just like acw by ageod, this one also had me confused.  If I remember correctly it had some container concept for organizing your armies ang just couldn't grasp it.  Maybe it is just me with these strategy games and trying to understand them:)  I'll try installing again to see if maybe clicks now.

[Johnnie]

Just had to chip in.  Forge of Freedom is one of my all time favorites.   Well done.

[mikeck]

Grim. Try playing a division v division battle and play a brigade. That will get you in the battle quicker. I usually play a division commander in a corp v corp so I always get sent in. The lower you are on the totem pole, the less you will do. Again ... Command simulation.

Have you tried some scenarios? Many brigade sized scenarios and you are guaranteed action!!

Also, the game is not for everyone. There are plenty of reasons not to like it so I never argue with those who don't care for it. For me though, there is no more accurate simulation of unit command in 18th-19th century warfare.

[Grim.Reaper]

Grim. Try playing a division v division battle and play a brigade. That will get you in the battle quicker. I usually play a division commander in a corp v corp so I always get sent in. The lower you are on the totem pole, the less you will do. Again ... Command simulation.

Have you tried some scenarios? Many brigade sized scenarios and you are guaranteed action!!

Also, the game is not for everyone. There are plenty of reasons not to like it so I never argue with those who don't care for it. For me though, there is no more accurate simulation of unit command in 18th-19th century warfare.

Don't get me wrong....not at all saying the game is not for me, I own every version of it back from the Take Command days.  I love the fact you are part of a bigger picture.  Just trying to feel my way around since even though owning it all this time, I have never fully immersed myself.  I have tried some of the scenarios and there good, just wish I was able to choose the side to play during the scenarios versus being forced to play one or the other.

[mikeck]

Yes, me too. Many scenarios have both sides but not all. I agree and I wish I could choose which level to command... Although I suspect that would make the script meaningless

[mikeck]

I just dowloaded the 1.5 demo, and tried a sandbox mode game.  I played a brigade commander in a corp-vs-corp game, and was not impressed by the AI or pathfinding.   Both sides pretty much had several large formations converge on a town, and just milled about within firing range of each other not doing anything (I was sent off to the extreme left flank).   Units were stuck in fences near the town...   Maybe it was just a bad setup... a town would probably not be an ideal to try to fight, but it sure thought it should.   Is this typical with sandbox mode, or is it just bad luck?

Smitty, check the matrix site. I believe that 1.6 is the newest patch. It fixes a lot of cavalry issues and some Ai issues. Not everything of course.  Can get it by logging onto matrix and going to the downloads area

[Compass Rose]

The only ACW games I own and play are John Tiller HPS and JTS games and from my POV the only way to play them is via PBEM.

If you enjoy playing computer games that use counters to show the units on the map, and enjoy playing in 2D view, you would be hard pressed to find a more enjoyable series.

John Tiller HPS & JTS games have the best customer service (in case you need it) and it is normally very easy to find forum board help to any in-game questions that come up.  What makes these games stand above the rest is that they are still all 100% supported, even their games that were released 10-12+ years ago.

The real "deal maker" for me is that I can play his HPS/JTS games with no problems on my 7-8 year old computer that runs WinXP.  I also can still play their most recent releases with no problems. 

Many moons ago, I use to find myself in the never ending sega of having to upgrade my computer every time a new game came out that I wanted to play.  After getting burnt too many times, I decided to stick with the "old school" games that don't have all of the chrome and bells and whistles that new games have however, at least I know they will work and I won't be wasting $30-$40 when I buy a game.

Also, in case you like to use art mods, John Tiller HPS/JTS games are very art mod friendly and most of the games can be played without you being required to have the game cd in the drive (They will eventually all be this way).

Another nice feature is that with the newer game updates, the game manuals are in PDF form which means that you can easily upload them to a smart phone.  So now whenever you have some down time, and you are not at home, you can very easily read the manuals without being forced to sit in front of your computer or having to lug around a 200+ page out-of-date game manual.

As a owner of over 60+ John Tiller HPS/JTS titles, I can't recommend his games enough.   My two favorite series of his is ACW and NAP.

BTW, you forgot to include Overland  in your John Tiller list.  ;)

http://johntillersoftware.com/CivilWarBattles/CampaignOverland.html

[bboyer66]

Never was a fan of Forge of Freedom reasons being

AI in the tactical battles was just plain horrific.

The tactical battles in no way resembled what actually happened on an actual Civil War battlefield.

  At the Strategic level it was more like managing a database than playing a game. Really, I need to purchase individual cannons and muskets to arm my troops?

Also at the strategic level there was also no room for maneuver. An example being that I believe there was only one province/area separating Washington DC from Richmond. So anything resembling strategy and maneuver at the strategic level was thrown out the window.

Most of all it just had no feel for the time period whatsoever.

While I applaud the developers ambitions, I felt the game just fell flat on its face when it came to the execution of their ideas.

[Johnnie]

bboyer:

Can't disagree with you more:

Tactical AI, certainly beatable but no worse than most games (and much, much harder to beat when invading an enemy province, as per history.  As the Union, I have given up early war invasions in the East.);
Strategic options very close to those of the actual war;
The games positively drips with atmosphere, put on some good period music and you're there.

It's funny how people can have opposite reactions to the same game/simulation.

[bbmike]

Good news for everyone who liked Forge of Freedom. WCS will be unveiling their next American Civil War game Brother Against Brother at Historicon! Here's the announcement from the Matrix forum.
I've been waiting for this to release since it was announced!