My luggage was lost on a trip back from China two weeks ago. I have been told I will get $100 in compensation. But also in the luggage was my SB Pro dongle. So, since I ran a software company a few years ago that used a dongle for its $5000 HMI software, I figured it would be a $20-$25 fee to get a replacement. esims would then just kill the old dongle's configuration. That is what we did at my old company.
So I email esims and guess what; I was told I have to purchase the entire game again at $125. I have been a customer of esims since 1.x SB. In fact I bought SB 1.0 on CD twice so I could have it on two separate machines. I figure I have put $300 into esims over the years, at a minimum. So that is what you get for trusting any company to help a customer out.
There is a whole mix of customer service issues and technical issues to this story. The main one is that esims has no way to kill a dongle, I am assuming. Otherwise, what's the harm in killing mine and selling me a new dongle. If that is the case, we have yet another small company using a DRM system they themselves can control.
esims only "solution" to my issue is the $40/yr time-based license. But, frankly, looking at the bugs and issues they have had, I think I'll just give up on SB. It pains me to say that, but I am just pissed about it.
btw, I'll get most of my compensation on my luggage from my company. But they won't pay for entertainment or personal technology items.
So interestingly, after a few heated exchanges with Ssnake, he has agreed to part of request...turning off my dongle. But he refuses to sell me a new one without buying the full game.
Now, even if I get my luggage back, I am out the hundreds of $ spent on SP. I want to make sure everyone thinking about playing SB understands what just happened. esims has taken away the game, even if I had the stick. That is the kind of company they are. They have the power to just turn the game off if you upset them.
Good thing you have all those CMANO scenarios to play...
Seriously though, your situation does suck. That stupid dongle is one thing I've been forced to guard jealously through 3 or 4 moves. I always knew getting a replacement would be a royal pain in the ass.
Frankly, when you can clearly prove you were/are a paying customer, I don't see the logic behind not sending a replacement for a reasonable fee. I'm sure Ssnake will be along soon enough to share esims' side of the story.
I have considered getting a copy of SB several times. But any piece of software with a draconian copy protection scheme just will not get my business in the end.
what a bummer! ...never thought i'd need to remember what to do to protect my investment in some software... dongle emulation anyone - thought this only valid for 'expensive' pro software?! esims sells their 'personal edition' with dongle protection?
good luck, mate! ...maybe santa's out there fetching you some deal on the side - esims, do you hear me?!
Dick move on their part; sorry, man.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 07, 2016, 07:48:11 AM
Good thing you have all those CMANO scenarios to play...
You'll note there are still a lot coming out for Command also. No $10 Amazon card needed though. I'll take sympathy in lieu.
It's one thing to have draconian DRM!.. However to not support you paying customers when such DRM prevents them from accessing what they paid for. Pure evil! :hide:
Quote from: chemkid on December 07, 2016, 08:30:28 AM
what a bummer! ...never thought i'd need to remember what to do to protect my investment in some software... dongle emulation anyone - thought this only valid for 'expensive' pro software?! esims sells their 'personal edition' with dongle protection?
good luck, mate! ...maybe santa's out there fetching you some deal on the side - esims, do you hear me?!
I actually have no problems with DRM, even very tight ones. As long as the selling company can support it and its a good quality solution. For example, Steam is OK. Yeah there are some nit picky things you have to plan for, but I have yet to not be able to play a game I want.
Even dongles are OK in my book. But having no recourse for a lost dongle is a first for me. That is just poor planning and service.
Battlefront and DCS are good with supporting those types of issues. Steam's customer service is non existent, but thankfully it just seems to work on it's own.
eSim have chosen the dongle as their DRM. They have recently implemented other options. One can purchase a "Time limited license". I have had a dongle for SB for several years and have had zero issue with it. I have changed hardware, OS, PC, etc. I have taken the dongle with me on travels and used it in other PC's without issue.
I have experienced eSim helping quite a few times when most companies would not have. On many occasions the end user did something they were told not to but eSim remedied the situation very quickly. I know someone who did this 2 times in a row and got it remedied. eSim have even helped many people on a weekend and holidays.
I know players who have broken their dongle and returned it to eSim and received a replacement for a fraction of the price of a new one. eSim will do this for anyone who returns at least some part of the dongle so they can confirm its destruction and removal from circulation.
Switching off the dongle through software is more problematic. The user must have first registered the dongle on-line, a simple process. However the dongle will need to meet a certain criteria to be able to get deactivated remotely. Such as go on-line. The problem is that an offline dongle (single player) will not be deactivated. eSim needs to be 100% sure that the dongle will never be used again.
eSim allow you to sell your dongle to a third party. They provide support to the current owner of the dongle. They make this widely known. This also can have the knock on effect of keeping a reasonable value of the dongle.
eSim are a small company. They make their living through their software. They need a robust system to prevent piracy. To date this product has not knowingly been pirated. The benefit of this is that eSim can continue to finance the future of the product.
No system is perfect. No company is perfect. I have never found the dongle to be intrusive. This is from 1000's of hours of use.
Regards
What bothers me the most about the whole thing is esims's default thought is I am a thief. The first excuse used is what if you were just trying to get an extra dongle to sell. Really? So that is the first thought you have for a guy who sends you the three latest order receipts for having bought your product?
And then it turns out they can disable my dongle's connection. So I am still at a loss as to why this is a problem that can't be solved.
"switching off the dongle through software is more problematic. The user must have first registered the dongle on-line, a simple process. However the dongle will need to meet a certain criteria to be able to get deactivated remotely. Such as go on-line. The problem is that an offline dongle (single player) will not be deactivated. eSim needs to be 100% sure that the dongle will never be used again."
I have the email where Ssnake has told me he de-activated my dongle. So its not that hard. Again, I ran a compay that used dongles. Even 10 years ago it was pretty straight forward. This is just a company cutting off its nose to spite its face.
So what is the worst case scenario for esims...absolutely worst case. It is one extra dongle out there to someone who might or might not have bought it at $125. But on the other side, they have a happy customer and a good story. Plus someone who will most likely buy more stuff over the next years. That is the worst case for them. And they get $25 for replacing the dongle. So worst case they lost $100. Now I probably spent $50/year with esims on upgrades. So even if its every other year. That drops the loss to $50.
What is happening now. That dongle is gone to never be used again. They have a pissed off customer who will never spend another dime with them. Some bad publicity and maybe reinforcing with some people that the dongle is not the best approach and esims is not customer friendly outside a little gaggle of loyalists.
So for an at worst net loss of $50, esims will just piss away a loyal customer for the most pedantic of reasons. And they have already disabled the dongle so that isn't even a consideration in the calculation. No company is perfect, especially if they never attempt to be.
Every company has some good customer service issues and some bad ones. Its how they handle, what should be, common sense issues like this one that falls outside what they normally deal with. What this shows me is what I have always suspected with esims...they are conservative and straight-laced group of people that have little desire to provide customer service outside their own inflexible rules.
Quote from: RyanE on December 07, 2016, 10:28:58 AM
esims is not customer friendly outside a little gaggle of loyalists.
I am NOT a loyalist. I enjoy using their software. I do not agree with everything eSims do and I have said that publicly.
I thought that a forum was for sharing ideas and helping people. Not a place to attack people who reply with the intention of helping the situation in some way.
A little defensive much...
Show me where i attacked and called you a loyalist please.
This game has appeared on my possible Christmas list for several years running but has never made it to the front of the queue before the cash is gone. Guess I've just seen a reason to scratch it for good.
Quote from: RyanE on December 07, 2016, 10:55:10 AM
A little defensive much...
Show me where i attacked and called you a loyalist please.
This is directed towards me.
Quote from: RyanE on December 07, 2016, 10:28:58 AM
esims is not customer friendly outside a little gaggle of loyalists.
This is not the first time you have got over excited and mad an assumption directed towards me. I will thank you not to do that in future. I will refrain from commenting on any of your posts in future. Please do return the favour.
Regards
OK Gents. We understand that you both have valid points of view, but please lets not allow the discussion to get out of hand.
SHOW ME THE BISCUITS!!
No. I'm shy.
Dongle, dongle, dongle!!!
You want I should make you stand in the naughty corner?
Is there biscuits in it?
I just got out of the naughty corner.
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 07, 2016, 11:08:01 AM
Is there biscuits in it?
no - Mirthie will have eaten the biscuits
Mirth = Cookie Monster
You guys really are our own GH Monty Python Troupe.
I do enjoy Naughty Corner Biscuits.
Dinsdale?
Are, uh,...are your biscuits a goer, eh? Know whatahmean, know whatahmean, nudge nudge, know whatahmean, say no more?
Don't let your dingle dongle dangle in the dirt!
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 11:15:41 AM
I do enjoy Naughty Corner Biscuits.
http://tinyurl.com/zhcros9
I just want to point out I didn't even think of people posting here as "loyalists". I was thinking of SteelBeasts.com crowd. I am still not sure where the comments on personal attacks come from. The quote that is posted doesn't reflect that at all.
The biscuit crowd can get like that
On one hand there's the bourbons, on the other the custard creams, and right in the middle are the jammy dodgers
Quote from: RyanE on December 07, 2016, 01:24:31 PM
I just want to point out I didn't even think of people posting here as "loyalists". I was thinking of SteelBeasts.com crowd. I am still not sure where the comments on personal attacks come from. The quote that is posted doesn't reflect that at all.
Ryan, I understood your meaning (even if I may disagree with it). I didn't see it as singling anyone out.
Getting back to the topic, the dongle setup is a real disincentive to purchasing SB. Far more so than the price of the game.
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 07, 2016, 01:28:01 PM
The biscuit crowd can get like that
On one hand there's the bourbons, on the other the custard creams, and right in the middle are the jammy dodgers
Who are you calling a jammy dodger?!
Ignore him - he's crackers.
If he keeps it up, I'm going to butter his biscuit.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fpictures%2FCat_7ee7e3_2863125.jpg&hash=2a1a48f4cb02b5b4ec5c60b1db8e1ac4fd5a8c7b)
^hahaha!
I read that they are planning to replace the magnets on maglev trains with the cat/butter device
Never happen. The risk of catastrophic failure is too great.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweknowmemes.com%2Fgenerator%2Fuploads%2Fgenerated%2Fg1368210048888572596.jpg&hash=661582139bf9d370a5f8297fc45023bed210dde5)
If I may present eSim's side of the story...
- The airline lost the stick, not eSim Games.
- The airline offers inqdequate compensation. I am very sorry about that
- The employer refuses to compensate for the loss of baggage that occurred during business travel. I am very sorry about that, too.
- Yet, eSim Games is depicted as the evil party, just because we have the temerity to demand verification.
We have a claim, nothing else, that a stick was lost (and it wasn't us to lose it) - While I was skeptical about the chances of success, when the customer suggested that I have the CM stick blacklisted, I immediately complied.
That doesn't mean that the CM stick is deactivated magically already, and given the customer's claim of years of business experience in the software and computer market, I think it is reasonable to infer that the customer knows very well that blacklisting to work requires an internet communication between the CM stick and some server to send a deactivation command.
Deactivation commands are being protocolled on the server. A deactivation entry for the stick would count as a verification of the loss claim.
Before we had a chance to even wait for the results of that blacklisting the customer started a public campaign against us.
Nice move.
I certainly understand the frustration on the customer's side, and that emotions can run high in such cases. I also understand that my suggestion to look at the situation from a pragmatical point of view didn't go down too well. All right, eMail communication is imporsonal, I'm sorry that it all escalated like this, but still:
Replacing the CM stick would incur a fee for the material costs of replacement, shipping, and handling, which amounts to $35.-; while I am under an NDA not to disclose the price of CM sticks that we buy from the manufacturer, what I can tell is that these CM sticks were on sale in the manufacturer's web shop for 39.- EUR a while ago, so draw your own conclusions how profitable it is for us to offer CM stick replacements.
As the costs of replacement are pretty much the same as the costs for a one-year license I think it is a valid question to ask if a time-based license isn't actually the better choice for a traveling man. The license gets installed on the computer on which it is being used, and notebooks usually go into the carry-on luggage, so the risk of loss in this case is obviously much smaller. Likewise, every other year our upgrades also cost a bit of money, $40.- in the last two cases, incidentally.
So the "switch to time-based licenses" suggestion is not a sly move to earn more money. I consider it to be almost cost neutral since, unlike with the CM stick, no upgrade fees apply. If you pause for a few months playing, you don't need to have an active license. And when the next version is out, play it for a year and put it to rest until the itch is back or the next version comes out.
So, I apologize for coming across like the cold-hearted technocrat that I might actually be, deep inside. My excuse for it is that I tried ot be pragmatic about a bad situation, and that our policy of handling cases like this is simple - and just, in that we're looking at the sole criterium that should matter:
Can the cause of a customer's claim for a replacement be verified or not?
If you can mail in a failed or damaged stick, and be it just bits and pieces, we'll offer a replacement. If you claim loss or theft: Difficult. But we can, and do, blacklist CM sticks if we can identify their serial number (you wouldn't want us to issue "arrest warrants" for any random serial number).
Maybe some agree here that we should not make a big fuss and send out a stick. But then the question is, should be do this -
always, not questions asked?
Then why have license management in the first place.
Should we offer replacement without verification at least
sometimes?
When exactly? Whenever a case is being presented with a plausible story?
So you'd essentially argue to reward those who can spin the best yarn. Or you're in favor of some arbitrary, whim of the moment decision. That doesn't sound very just to me. I would rather use simple rules that can be checked for consistency.
I guess the question is, do you believe the veracity of the claim? If you do, charge whatever you need to cover your costs and send a replacement. If you do not, don't issue a replacement. If the guy can provide proof-of-purchase, I don't see where the problem is.
It is not the Customer's fault that the DRM costs a lot of money. May be a sign that it is time to get rid of that form of DRM!
Quote from: Tuna on December 07, 2016, 03:26:53 PM
It is not the Customer's fault that the DRM costs a lot of money. May be a sign that it is time to get rid of that form of DRM!
Bingo.
QuoteSo you'd essentially argue to reward those who can spin the best yarn. Or you're in favor of some arbitrary, whim of the moment decision. That doesn't sound very just to me. I would rather use simple rules that can be checked for consistency.
If everyone followed the rules slavishly then we wouldn't need common sense. To me the term customer service and customer relationship exist for these situations. They belong partly in order to be able to provide an answer in the greater context which in this case includes previous purchases (customer loyalty) versus no history of repeatedly losing/abusing any of the DRM.
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 03:11:47 PM
I guess the question is, do you believe the veracity of the claim? If you do, charge whatever you need to cover your costs and send a replacement. If you do not, don't issue a replacement. If the guy can provide proof-of-purchase, I don't see where the problem is.
That seems the best solution. I don't see the point in making a huge issue where the balance of probability is that the customer is telling the truth. Where is the real loss to the company, if they charge to cover the costs of replacement?
The worst case scenario is that someone steals the dongle and can use it, or sell it on successfully. What is the quantum of loss to the company? A lost sale? Most likely a thief won't even know what it is for, and more likely have never heard of SB, let alone be into it. A lost sale will only apply if the thief, or subsequent purchaser would have actually bought the game, which is unlikely if they haven't already.
I do understand where Ssnake is coming from, but without admitting any liability, it might with hindsight, have just been more sensible to have given RyanE as an "established customer" the benefit of the doubt and helped him out. If Ssnake points out that this is not usual policy but a discretionary goodwill gesture, then not only does eSim retain a customer, but also sends a positive message to the community that if things go wrong with "established customers" they will "at their discretion" help them out. It is not a surrender to any claim, as eSim retains the right to exercise their discretion based on the credibility of the claim.
Is Ssnake wrong to ask for verification of the cause of claim? - absolutely not. But on the flip side of the coin sometimes you just can't do this - as in RyanE's case. It doesn't mean the claim is unfounded, even if a rare occurrence. It does call for a commercial judgement as to whether you believe the customer is probably telling the truth. If you think they are probably being truthful, then you retain a customer, and that loyalty often gets reflected whenever a supplier comes under fire in the community. Like Mirth said:
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 03:11:47 PM
I guess the question is, do you believe the veracity of the claim? If you do, charge whatever you need to cover your costs and send a replacement. If you do not, don't issue a replacement. If the guy can provide proof-of-purchase, I don't see where the problem is.
Quote from: Con on December 07, 2016, 03:48:31 PM
QuoteSo you'd essentially argue to reward those who can spin the best yarn. Or you're in favor of some arbitrary, whim of the moment decision. That doesn't sound very just to me. I would rather use simple rules that can be checked for consistency.
If everyone followed the rules slavishly then we wouldn't need common sense. To me the term customer service and customer relationship exist for these situations. They belong partly in order to be able to provide an answer in the greater context which in this case includes previous purchases (customer loyalty) versus no history of repeatedly losing/abusing any of the DRM.
Exactly. Good point Con. O0
@B_Cat, Barth and Con :bd:
Brilliant cat meme's and Youtube link! :notworthy:
Can a thread be simultaneously derailed and on topic?
Yes and no.
I think Ssnake just reinforced my point on the definition of pedantically following the rules...
"Should we offer replacement without verification at least sometimes?
When exactly? Whenever a case is being presented with a plausible story?
So you'd essentially argue to reward those who can spin the best yarn. Or you're in favor of some arbitrary, whim of the moment decision. That doesn't sound very just to me. I would rather use simple rules that can be checked for consistency."
Let's look at what is being assumed here...
2013, upgraded to 2.64
2014, Upgraded to 3.0
2016, upgraded to 4.0
end of 2016, RyanE suddenly decides he is going to screw over esims by pretending to lose a dongle. esims sees right through the ploy and declares rules are rules.
Does anyone think this is a reasonable assumption to make. esims, in so many words, is calling me a thief. This is not some random guy trying to break into your business. This is, at minimum, a customer that ahs dropped almost $200 on your company in less than three years.
btw, Ssnake has suddenly declared I never gave him a chance to be flexible. I mean...he sent two emails outlining how sorry he is but can't help me. I'll post them if its what is needed for esims to wake up a little.
I have on multiple occasions defended esims pricing. I want esims to make money to continue producing games. I made this public because Ssnake gave me no choice. His email to me was pretty clear. I am not emotional about this issues. I understand its a business decision. But poor customer service decisions have consequences. A small or large company doesn't matter. This forum is one of the few places a company can be dragged before the public and exposed for stupid decisions. esims thought they held all the leverage on this.
I doubt I am going to get anything out of this whole thing. But I hope the next person who has this happen gets a better deal then me. And I hope it hurts esims a little financially enough that they'll rethink it. I hope that $50 was worth it.
Quote from: RyanE on December 07, 2016, 04:26:47 PM
RyanE suddenly decides he is going to screw over esims by pretending to lose a dongle. esims sees right through the ploy and declares rules are rules.
Does anyone think this is a reasonable assumption to make.
No. It's a Jim Rose level of paranoia.
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 04:05:15 PM
Can a thread be simultaneously derailed and on topic?
A thread about trainwrecks?
Quote from: mirthSo, this one?
Yes, I am preemptively quoting your built-in punchline. You're welcome :)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 07, 2016, 04:32:58 PM
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 04:05:15 PM
Can a thread be simultaneously derailed and on topic?
A thread about trainwrecks?
Quote from: mirthSo, this one?
Yes, I am preemptively quoting your built-in punchline. You're welcome :)
lmao
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 07, 2016, 04:32:58 PM
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 04:05:15 PM
Can a thread be simultaneously derailed and on topic?
A thread about trainwrecks?
Quote from: mirthSo, this one?
Yes, I am preemptively quoting your built-in punchline. You're welcome :)
That is a classic.
I don't understand why a software company selling a relatively niche product would seek to drive away a loyal customer over something that could be resolved quite easily. Thankfully this sort of DRM is relatively rare now.
Quote from: RyanE on December 07, 2016, 01:24:31 PM
I just want to point out I didn't even think of people posting here as "loyalists". I was thinking of SteelBeasts.com crowd. I am still not sure where the comments on personal attacks come from. The quote that is posted doesn't reflect that at all.
Maybe this is superfluous, but in the interests of stopping Grogheads' infighting: RyanE and several others posted about the paucity of the company's customer service. Asid then posted evidence of the company's active customer service - not in contradiction of the current case, just saying that they're not complete cowboys. The kicker is that RyanE then posts directly after to say that "esims is not customer friendly outside a little gaggle of loyalists".
To my mind, that sequence of posts looks like RyanE is saying that Asid is an "esims loyalist", whether or not that was the intended outcome. That's where the comments on personal attacks come from.
Quote from: Father Ted on December 07, 2016, 06:08:45 PM
Quote from: RyanE on December 07, 2016, 01:24:31 PM
I just want to point out I didn't even think of people posting here as "loyalists". I was thinking of SteelBeasts.com crowd. I am still not sure where the comments on personal attacks come from. The quote that is posted doesn't reflect that at all.
Maybe this is superfluous, but in the interests of stopping Grogheads' infighting: RyanE and several others posted about the paucity of the company's customer service. Asid then posted evidence of the company's active customer service - not in contradiction of the current case, just saying that they're not complete cowboys. The kicker is that RyanE then posts directly after to say that "esims is not customer friendly outside a little gaggle of loyalists".
To my mind, that sequence of posts looks like RyanE is saying that Asid is an "esims loyalist", whether or not that was the intended outcome. That's where the comments on personal attacks come from.
It's cute that you think it's going to stop the infighting ;D
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 03:11:47 PM
I guess the question is, do you believe the veracity of the claim? If you do, charge whatever you need to cover your costs and send a replacement. If you do not, don't issue a replacement. If the guy can provide proof-of-purchase, I don't see where the problem is.
The point I was trying to make is that we set up a policy where it shouldn't matter whether I (or anyone else who might be working on customer support)
believe a claim to be true. Maybe I
am pedantic in my attempt to eliminate personal bias and the quality of the story being told. Our guideline is whether a claim can be verified.
Also, I find it somewhat unfair that
eSim Games is blamed for mistakes that others made - the airline, which lost the suitcase to begin with, and offers a mere pittance for compensation. The unreasonable policy of his employer to cover only a part of the loss that occurred during a company-mandated travel. The way it appears to me is that
we are being singled out as the most vulnerable party, and that the essence of the negotiation tactic is extortion:
"Do as I want, or I go public".
That's not how I roll.
I tried to offer an alternative view point to look at the situation to find a creative way out, but it was roundly rejected. When I complied with the demand to blacklist the CM stick I wasn't even given the time to explain that it wouldn't work immediately. Rather, I was accused of stealing his license (just in case that the suitcase would show up, after all- apparently there still is a chance for that); which is rich - after all, I blacklisted the stick on his direct request, as fast as I could. When I gave the technical explanation how the blacklisting worked, this thread was opened already to drag the case into the public.
I'm sorry. I may be looking like a pedantic ass, but if there is one thing where I react very badly, it's blackmail and extortion. It may not be intended like that, and my hand remains outstretched for further negotiations despite a somewhat difficult atmosphere at this point. But I'm not sure if RyanE is actually interested in a solution other than total surrender on my part.
Blackmail and extortion are pretty strong words and don't do you any favors from a customer service perspective.
I can tell you I would be pissed too if I couldn't play a game I had invested $300 in and got the CS response you are giving here.
Obviously it's your business and you should run it however you want, but you shouldn't be surprised when a customer publicly airs dissatisfaction. Particularly when it comes to a problematic DRM setup.
Quote from: Tuna on December 07, 2016, 03:26:53 PM
It is not the Customer's fault that the DRM costs a lot of money.
Never said it was.
QuoteMay be a sign that it is time to get rid of that form of DRM!
If SB Pro PE was nothing but a game, and if eSim Games was just an entertainment company,
definitely!Alas, eSim Games is first and foremost a company for military training solutions where the main product, SB Pro (without the PE), is an export-controlled software, Certain embargo countries have already demonstrated efforts to steal the source code. To make the Personal Edition possible at all (a release to the general public) it takes the best code protection that we can get.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 06:41:44 PM
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 03:11:47 PM
I guess the question is, do you believe the veracity of the claim? If you do, charge whatever you need to cover your costs and send a replacement. If you do not, don't issue a replacement. If the guy can provide proof-of-purchase, I don't see where the problem is.
The point I was trying to make is that we set up a policy where it shouldn't matter whether I (or anyone else who might be working on customer support) believe a claim to be true. Maybe I am pedantic in my attempt to eliminate personal bias and the quality of the story being told. Our guideline is whether a claim can be verified.
Also, I find it somewhat unfair that eSim Games is blamed for mistakes that others made - the airline, which lost the suitcase to begin with, and offers a mere pittance for compensation. The unreasonable policy of his employer to cover only a part of the loss that occurred during a company-mandated travel. The way it appears to me is that we are being singled out as the most vulnerable party, and that the essence of the negotiation tactic is extortion:
"Do as I want, or I go public".
That's not how I roll.
I tried to offer an alternative view point to look at the situation to find a creative way out, but it was roundly rejected. When I complied with the demand to blacklist the CM stick I wasn't even given the time to explain that it wouldn't work immediately. Rather, I was accused of stealing his license (just in case that the suitcase would show up, after all- apparently there still is a chance for that); which is rich - after all, I blacklisted the stick on his direct request, as fast as I could. When I gave the technical explanation how the blacklisting worked, this thread was opened already to drag the case into the public.
I'm sorry. I may be looking like a pedantic ass, but if there is one thing where I react very badly, it's blackmail and extortion. It may not be intended like that, and my hand remains outstretched for further negotiations despite a somewhat difficult atmosphere at this point. But I'm not sure if RyanE is actually interested in a solution other than total surrender on my part.
Ssnake my compliments on this comment, it shows some insight in being on the other side of the table.
Now lets turn this into something positive, something for us to do in the future...
In case someone lost their dongle, (do mind that in most cases the dongle stays property of the company, its the access to the software you buy) It is probably best to first acess the situation. If there is a high probability of it beeing stolen then it is probably a good idea to
inform the company and go over to actions yet. Then if after some time the licence is deemed lost go over to actions.
Since licence sharing is allowed, heck even promoted there is no issue what so ever as you can keep playing. Even with HASP dongles sharing is possible through sharing a specific usb port over the interwebs...
Mistakes where made, and it is good, because it is trough those we learn and that makes us human. Now lets move on...
I'm not interested in further escalation, so I'll refrain from making further posts in public - at least for the moment. Thanks for giving me a chance to present an alternate viewing angle. Who knows, maybe we can all calm down and find a solution after all.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 07:05:44 PM
I'm not interested in further escalation, so I'll refrain from making further posts in public - at least for the moment. Thanks for giving me a chance to present an alternate viewing angle. Who knows, maybe we can all calm down and find a solution after all.
I appreciate you showing up to provide your side of the story.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 06:55:48 PMAlas, eSim Games is first and foremost a company for military training solutions where the main product, SB Pro (without the PE), is an export-controlled software, Certain embargo countries have already demonstrated efforts to steal the source code. To make the Personal Edition possible at all (a release to the general public) it takes the best code protection that we can get.
I think the export controls are probably something that not a ton of folks around here really understand as being distinctive from just consumer-level anti-piracy software. This isn't the forum to really lay out a lot of the details, but if the dongles are needed to comply with a gov't requirement for protecting the code, then no amount of beseeching the company to change the DRM will have any effect as the decision is largely out of their hands at that point.
As to how to deal with the dongle replacement issue, there are multiple possible viewpoints, and at this point, we may have devolved into one of those
"it's gray!"
"no, it's an elephant!"
"no, it's gray!"
"it's a damn elephant!"
arguments
Ssnake has made a good faith effort to explain the company's position.
Some of you are OK with that explanation; some of you are not.
It appears as though eSims aren't going to change their position with the existing set of facts, so unless new facts emerge, then this seems settled for them.
There's nothing stopping you guys from continuing to pile on Ssnake for this position, but doing so isn't likely to change anything, and may simply make Ssnake more gun-shy about coming back to the site to engage in other issues.
I'm NOT saying you have to be OK with their position, but it doesn't sound like it's changing, so arguing / yelling / sulking / whining isn't likely to get anywhere, so just don't expect much of a change at this point.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 07, 2016, 07:13:29 PM
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 06:55:48 PMAlas, eSim Games is first and foremost a company for military training solutions where the main product, SB Pro (without the PE), is an export-controlled software, Certain embargo countries have already demonstrated efforts to steal the source code. To make the Personal Edition possible at all (a release to the general public) it takes the best code protection that we can get.
I think the export controls are probably something that not a ton of folks around here really understand as being distinctive from just consumer-level anti-piracy software. This isn't the forum to really lay out a lot of the details, but if the dongles are needed to comply with a gov't requirement for protecting the code, then no amount of beseeching the company to change the DRM will have any effect as the decision is largely out of their hands at that point.
I'm not looking to endlessly debate the subject, but it seems like a professional military product that requires government mandated protection may not be suitable as a consumer product. The two things don't seem very compatible and they certainly have very different requirements and expectations.
As a consumer, knowing the cost, DRM setup and potential for problems, I would not purchase SB. Caveat Emptor, I suppose.
I wouldnt say Caveat Emptor but instead "ipsa scientia potestas est" - Loosely translated knowledge is power.
I still say common sense would have prevented all this but if the decision is to hew unquestioning to their own internal policy on these dongles then it helps shape my future purchasing options regarding their product.
I applaud RyanE for bringing this policy to common knowledge.
Con
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 07, 2016, 02:21:12 PM
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fpictures%2FCat_7ee7e3_2863125.jpg&hash=2a1a48f4cb02b5b4ec5c60b1db8e1ac4fd5a8c7b)
ROFL
In related news..
I've debated selling my Steel Beasts dongle.
It has the previous SB version on it. Can't justify being so paranoid about losing the damn thing (which should've been filled with gold dust and crack based on cost) and I haven't played it in a year or more.
Quote from: Con on December 07, 2016, 07:58:17 PM
I wouldnt say Caveat Emptor but instead "ipsa scientia potestas est" - Loosely translated knowledge is power.
There are ways to play Steel Beasts without a physical USB stick. Not everybody here may be aware of this.
We offer the choice to get a license valid for a year ($39.50), four months ($24.50), or one ($9.50). It's perfectly possible to pause between usages; there is no subscription involved, and no upgrade fees.While these licenses aren't entirely immune from a risk of loss, at least they avoid the necessity to keep an eye on a small, lightweight item and rather tie the license to an entire computer (e.g. a gaming notebook, for those among us who travel). The argument that this is more expensive is, IMO, only valid if you intend to play the software non stop, for at least three or four years, and never intend to upgrade your version. If you follow the regular upgrade cycle, the break-even point is somewhere at around six years of continuous playing (+/- 1 year, depending on the price of future upgrades). Once that you take breaks, an option that appears entirely likely to me, the bpoint beyond which a time-based license becomes more expensive, moves to potentially infinite - e.g. if you bought a one-year licenses only whenever there is a major update, and then play it for a year.
You would still have to deal with the procedures of the CodeMeter runtime software and license management, I never made a secret about it. But contrary to some people's expectation the time-based licenses are not an evil scheme of ours to boost our profit margins or anything. Now, some people are hoarders. They just like to OWN a game rather than being able to just play it whenever they want. I can't help with that urge. But at least those who are concerned about the risk of loss of a USB stick should be aware that there are alternatives available.
Quote from: Nefaro on December 07, 2016, 08:06:05 PM
I've debated selling my Steel Beasts dongle.
It has the previous SB version on it. Can't justify being so paranoid about losing the damn thing (which should've been filled with gold dust and crack based on cost) and I haven't played it in a year or more.
You may find out that the cost thing isn't so bad as you currently think. On the rare occasions that CM sticks with a Steel Beasts license show up on eBay, they usually go for about $60...$90. So in the best of cases you bought it for $115.-, sell it for $90, actual expense: $25.-
You see, the CM stick actually helps to retain the second-hand value of the software. There are no restrictions on selling it on, and the absence of pirated versions helps it being marketable. Even if you don't sell it for the best possible price you end up with something that is quite comparable to the costs of a one-year time based license.
People get all hypnotized by the initial price when a lot of games these days, especially when combined with DLCs and some MMO subscription, will easily cost just as much or more --- and cannot be sold afterwards. I'm ready to take a lot of blame for everything that we do. But it would be nice to get, once in a while, also a bit of credit for the things that we do right with respect to CodeMeter, and our pricing policies.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 08:24:13 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on December 07, 2016, 08:06:05 PM
I've debated selling my Steel Beasts dongle.
It has the previous SB version on it. Can't justify being so paranoid about losing the damn thing (which should've been filled with gold dust and crack based on cost) and I haven't played it in a year or more.
You may find out that the cost thing isn't so bad as you currently think. On the rare occasions that CM sticks with a Steel Beasts license show up on eBay, they usually go for about $60...$90. So in the best of cases you bought it for $115.-, sell it for $90, actual expense: $25.-
You see, the CM stick actually helps to retain the second-hand value of the software. There are no restrictions on selling it on, and the absence of pirated versions helps it being marketable. Even if you don't sell it for the best possible price you end up with something that is quite comparable to the costs of a one-year time based license.
People get all hypnotized by the initial price when a lot of games these days, especially when combined with DLCs and some MMO subscription, will easily cost just as much or more --- and cannot be sold afterwards. I'm ready to take a lot of blame for everything that we do. But it would be nice to get, once in a while, also a bit of credit for the things that we do right with respect to CodeMeter, and our pricing policies.
I do appreciate being able to re-sell this game second hand. Most DRM schemes were made to prevent exactly that.
It was the deciding factor in my original purchase, despite my reservations about the price & dongle. Still think it's an enjoyable sim, but I jump around too much in order to keep up with it. Would be better to just do some multi-player with the occasional month sub in my case.
So it's a military product, that requires a dongle.. but yet you can buy it without a dongle.. Which is it?
I was never close to buying this game due to the dongle and the price.
But gaming with the people on Asid's site, I was getting tempted to give it a shot. Now, I'm not so sure. Again, back to customer service.
I appreciate you coming on, and telling your side of the story. There is nothing wrong with you sticking to your rules. But if you want to gain more customers, then you should treat long time customers a little better. Especially where you have the ability to kill the existing dongle.
Some people hate Battlefronts DRM and Update pricing. But you know what, when you have a problem, they help you. They help you immediately.
That goes a long way trying to grow the customer base, even when you are doing other things that may alienate them.
SO the short of it is I am out almost $200 with no game. It could be easily remedied by esims. esims has set internal rules that don't allow that to happen. Regardless of their rationalizations, they could have easily been more flexible. In fact Ssnake is still claiming I never gave them the chance to be flexible. I am still waiting to see where that was offered.
I am in no way blaming esims for losing my luggage. But the response to a long-time customer in a bind is spend another $125 with us. My main point for posting is if you want to play SP, you better guard your dongle or esims will want their next pound of flesh.
I can tell you right now, if I treated my corporate customers with that level of inflexibility, I would soon find myself lacking contracts.
As to my luggage, my corporate travel VP managed to get United to up the comp to $300. My company is paying another $200. I am still out a dongle and a game. And I am out a healthy amount of respect for how esims treats its gaming customers. All for a net of $50 for esims.
btw, the I have avoided the timed licenses due to the number of bugs I have seen during upgrades.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 06:41:44 PM
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 03:11:47 PM
I guess the question is, do you believe the veracity of the claim? If you do, charge whatever you need to cover your costs and send a replacement. If you do not, don't issue a replacement. If the guy can provide proof-of-purchase, I don't see where the problem is.
The point I was trying to make is that we set up a policy where it shouldn't matter whether I (or anyone else who might be working on customer support) believe a claim to be true. Maybe I am pedantic in my attempt to eliminate personal bias and the quality of the story being told. Our guideline is whether a claim can be verified.
Also, I find it somewhat unfair that eSim Games is blamed for mistakes that others made - the airline, which lost the suitcase to begin with, and offers a mere pittance for compensation. The unreasonable policy of his employer to cover only a part of the loss that occurred during a company-mandated travel. The way it appears to me is that we are being singled out as the most vulnerable party, and that the essence of the negotiation tactic is extortion:
"Do as I want, or I go public".
That's not how I roll.
I tried to offer an alternative view point to look at the situation to find a creative way out, but it was roundly rejected. When I complied with the demand to blacklist the CM stick I wasn't even given the time to explain that it wouldn't work immediately. Rather, I was accused of stealing his license (just in case that the suitcase would show up, after all- apparently there still is a chance for that); which is rich - after all, I blacklisted the stick on his direct request, as fast as I could. When I gave the technical explanation how the blacklisting worked, this thread was opened already to drag the case into the public.
I'm sorry. I may be looking like a pedantic ass, but if there is one thing where I react very badly, it's blackmail and extortion. It may not be intended like that, and my hand remains outstretched for further negotiations despite a somewhat difficult atmosphere at this point. But I'm not sure if RyanE is actually interested in a solution other than total surrender on my part.
I have no dog in this fight. I am just looking at the issues raised as a neutral outsider.
Ssnake is right that RyanE was treated badly by the airline and the company, and that isn't his fault. However, I don't recall RyanE claiming that it ever was his fault that those entities didn't act fairly towards him. The fault of the loss lies with either a thief, or the airline losing the luggage. RyanE's complaint was that he had not been treated reasonably by eSim having regard to the facts alleged.
Mirth covered this take on Ssnake's response quite succinctly... and Ssnake's response hardly addresses it.
Given that Ssnake's involvement is a matter of customer service with regard to a replacement dongle, it all hinges as far as Ssnake is concerned on proof of loss. Clearly, Asid is aware that eSim do look after their customers with a broken dongle, and likewise Ssnake attests to that as well. But in this case there is no physical evidence of the loss because either the dongle is lost with the luggage, or stolen. So the issue is do you give RyanE the benefit of the doubt?
As an established customer of several years I'm inclined to believe his position that he would not suddenly try to clip eSim for a dongle, especially as this has not happened before, and he is willing to pay the replacement cost of the dongle, so that eSim is not carrying a loss on the transaction. Maybe communications have been a bit heated and both sides have their hackles up, but in the greater scheme of things is this really something for eSim to get worried about?
I think Con is right that this is a matter to deal with by common sense. It may not be policy for eSim to replace dongle's without physical evidence, but sometimes - like in this case - you don't have physical evidence. If the customer covers the cost of the replacement, and you know he has regularly paid into the company on upgrades, where is the loss to the company? Moreover, one assumes that he will continue to pay for upgrades as time goes on if he has a working dongle, which must be good for company revenue. Is it beyond expectation that eSim says to RyanE - it's not our policy to supply replacement dongles without evidence, but in your case we'll accept your version of events as a goodwill gesture if you pay the replacement cost.
Of course, this is yet a matter for eSim to decide. However, as a neutral in all this, it does seem a route to a happy ending for all concerned - and reflects well on eSim's customer service when something out of the ordinary happens.
Exactly...that has been my point all along.
Its also telling that an airline, of all organizations, tripled the standard compensation when presented with the fact I am a frequent and long-term customer. So in the end, an airline, one of the more detested customer service companies in the world, outperformed esims on customer service from a customer's perspective. That is not a contest you want to even be in as a company.
One more point...
Ssnake used losing an iphone as an example. My family and I have lost phones before. Verizon sells me a certified used phone as a replacement at a fairly deep discount. In fact, since I am one of the original Verizon Wireless customers, they give me a bigger than normal discount on it. See how that works?
They don't make start over, pay a new line activation fee, pay full retail for the phone, etc. I go in, say I lost my phone and paid a price, depending on how old the phone is, and I am done. That's not even considering insurance.
Quote from: Tuna on December 07, 2016, 08:35:14 PM
Some people hate Battlefronts DRM and Update pricing. But you know what, when you have a problem, they help you. They help you immediately.
That goes a long way trying to grow the customer base, even when you are doing other things that may alienate them.
That's definitely true. Battlefront support is excellent, and they do usually help you out very quickly (not always immediately, although they do often help even outside of office hours, which is unusual (and dedicated) in my experience).
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 08:15:15 PM
Now, some people are hoarders. They just like to OWN a game rather than being able to just play it whenever they want. I can't help with that urge.
So now people who like to OWN what they actually BUY are some how looked upon negatively and described as "hoarders"? And this is you not wanting to escalate things?
I think the lesson here is that esims, or at least Ssnake doesn't really care about the recreational user. The product is geared toward, and the company makes the most money from, government/military contracts. Esims views the fact that the PE version even exists as a favor that the enthusiast crowd should be grateful for. I don't fault Ssnake for placing a greater emphasis on the more lucrative customer base, but I do fault him for his piss poor attitude.
I missed the hoarders comment before. It's a helluva an attitude from someone selling a game for $125 a pop, plus paid upgrades.
I like to OWN the games I buy AND play them whenever I want. Guess that makes me some kind of fringe element hoarder. :crazy2:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 07, 2016, 09:17:39 PM
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 08:15:15 PM
Now, some people are hoarders. They just like to OWN a game rather than being able to just play it whenever they want. I can't help with that urge.
So now people who like to OWN what they actually BUY are some how looked upon negatively and described as "hoarders"? And this is you not wanting to escalate things?
I think the lesson here is that esims, or at least Ssnake doesn't really care about the recreational user. The product is geared toward, and the company makes the most money from, government/military contracts. Esims views the fact that the PE version even exists as a favor that the enthusiast crowd should be grateful for. I don't fault Ssnake for placing a greater emphasis on the more lucrative customer base, but I do fault him for his piss poor attitude.
I have to agree with JH on this. It would be more transparent if esims stated that their civilian version is for renting not buying if you purchase licenses. The dongle option is not a robust solution as we see here (I am sure with a much larger customer base there would have been many more instances of these types of losses of a dongle). The fact that esims puts the onus on the customer to prove that they have had a theft/loss of the dongle with the outcome irregardless leading to no middle ground compromise is the same situation as credit companies passing the pain and blame on victims of theft identity and making it their (the victims) problem to clean up a mess not caused by them. Its an abdication of corporate responsibility.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 07:05:44 PM
I'm not interested in further escalation, so I'll refrain from making further posts in public - at least for the moment. Thanks for giving me a chance to present an alternate viewing angle. Who knows, maybe we can all calm down and find a solution after all.
I think that's a good idea because your initial response on here was shameful for a company.
In it you said
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 03:00:58 PM
...All right, eMail communication is impersonal
Given your initial post, I don't think the email communication being impersonal is the problem. Your further posts have faired no better
You said in a further post
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 06:55:48 PM
Quote from: Tuna on December 07, 2016, 03:26:53 PM
It is not the Customer's fault that the DRM costs a lot of money.
Never said it was.
But I never saw in the customers post where he blamed you for losing his luggage or getting a pitiful amount of compensation from the airline, and yet you felt it important to point those two things out in your initial post.
I really dislike those standard letters you get saying "We're sorry your experience with our company fell below that we aim to achieve....." - but almost anything else being written by you would have been so much better than your initial post on here to a long term customer with a problem.
Given how gamers have felt about DRM over the years, it's a sad state to see that even though gamers have "embraced" it by not boycotting the industry (through their sickness to continual buy games even though they haven't played the others ::) ), the industry still views customers as robbing bastards first :'(
Quote from: mirth on December 07, 2016, 09:48:19 PM
I missed the hoarders comment before. It's a helluva an attitude from someone selling a game for $125 a pop, plus paid upgrades.
I like to OWN the games I buy AND play them whenever I want. Guess that makes me some kind of fringe element hoarder. :crazy2:
Extremist.
TBH after reading ssnakes response I am pleased I have never bought this and I am not likely to now.
lately at eSim's customer support
the "Dongle Nazi" :DD
(https://i.imgflip.com/1fkfvi.jpg)
...well, i was always on the fence about SB for a long long time ...tell you something. Now I, your very horder, start looking for a pirated copy >:D if (brownnosy fanyboy Asid's occasional) threads here manage to get me mildly interested in that timesink of a tank study sim now and then again anyway
if niche niche niche grognard (grogheads) customers been seen as buccaneers upfront what ever straight biz-relation they had anyway ...so gents why bother with a valid purchase, it makes no difference
Quote from: MikeGER on December 08, 2016, 04:02:53 AM
lately at eSim's customer support
the "Dongle Nazi" :DD
(https://i.imgflip.com/1fkfvi.jpg)
...well, i was always on the fence about SB for a long long time ...tell you something. Now I, your very horder, start looking for a pirated copy >:D if (brownnosy fanyboy Asid's occasional) threads here manage to get me mildly interested in that timesink of a tank study sim now and then again anyway
if niche niche niche grognard (grogheads) customers been seen as buccaneers upfront what ever straight biz-relation they had anyway ...so gents why bother with a valid purchase, it makes no difference
Excellent post MikeGer
Good of you to label someone in such a way, who enjoys a game and helps people who have problems with it. Not to mention advocating piracy. Nazi? Really?
It is a good job that I constantly point people to Grogheads and encourage them to visit here just so they can read comments like this.
Regards
Quote from: MikeGER on December 08, 2016, 04:02:53 AM
lately at eSim's customer support
the "Dongle Nazi" :DD
(https://i.imgflip.com/1fkfvi.jpg)
...well, i was always on the fence about SB for a long long time ...tell you something. Now I, your very horder, start looking for a pirated copy >:D if (brownnosy fanyboy the ever helpful Asid's occasional) threads here manage to get me mildly interested in that timesink of a tank study sim now and then again anyway
if niche niche niche grognard (grogheads) customers been seen as buccaneers upfront what ever straight biz-relation they had anyway ...so gents why bother with a valid purchase, it makes no difference
Fixed that for you MikeGER O0
I want to emphasize that Ssnake keeps talking about finding a solution or offering flexibility. I have no idea what he is talking about. The only offer EVER presented to me by email was $125 for a new gongle or $40/yr for the subscription-based license.
I think he is trying to run some kind of PR campaign to save face by making it look there is some kind of back channel deal in the works with me. There isn't. I haven't heard from him in a while by email. So anyone that has the impression that esims is suddenly seeing the light on this issue should disabuse themselves of that thought.
Interestingly, I called a friend at my old company, which we sold to GE, about how they handle IP protection now. He said they abandoned the dongle strategy a couple years ago and went with a software solution. He said they were having to replace too many dongles and customers hated them. I personally don't mind the dongle. But I do mind poor and inflexible customer service. I think too many people associate poor customer service and poor implementation with DRM. DRM, if done right and supported correctly, can be pretty unintrusive.
I have always felt that esims thinks we should treat their support of the gamers' version of SB as a privilege. But I guarantee when those military contracts start to dry up, you'll see a sudden shift in focus to develop the game for the game market. Face it; we are second class citizens at esims.
So now, over on SimHQ, Ssnake is suddenly talking about emailing him to negotiate. He complains about the "smear' campaign I am running. Him and couple of his "loyalists" over there seem to think I am extorting him. I have asked him to go ahead and post the emails between us, yet he still hasn't. The only reason he is suddenly willing to "negotiate" is the public pressure I am sure he is feeling.
Does anyone think he would be suddenly be willing to talk if I hadn't started this thread. His two emails to me were basically sorry, its against the rules. I am going to give it another week on the luggage and see if it shows up. Frankly, I didn't think this would be that big of a deal. Part of the issue, personally, is I was shocked at the hardline in esims initial email response. One thing I am not doing, is giving him another $125, now or over a few years.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 08, 2016, 05:22:01 AM
Quote from: MikeGER on December 08, 2016, 04:02:53 AM
lately at eSim's customer support
the "Dongle Nazi" :DD
(https://i.imgflip.com/1fkfvi.jpg)
...well, i was always on the fence about SB for a long long time ...tell you something. Now I, your very horder, start looking for a pirated copy >:D if (brownnosy fanyboy the ever helpful Asid's occasional) threads here manage to get me mildly interested in that timesink of a tank study sim now and then again anyway
if niche niche niche grognard (grogheads) customers been seen as buccaneers upfront what ever straight biz-relation they had anyway ...so gents why bother with a valid purchase, it makes no difference
Fixed that for you MikeGER O0
O0 O0
The part I still do not understand is why RyanE could not be presented with a 'coulance'-deal when presenting proof of purchase in the first place?
Is the source code of the PE version something of a secret as well?
He bought the software and several upgrades. That's not hard to verify, me thinks. And if proof can be presented why not offer a replacement dongle for the replacement costs as outlined by Ssnake?
If eSim is worried about this lost dongle being in the wild in relation to piracy, I tend to ask myself what are the chances?
I understand the blacklisting alone will not guarantee the dongle being cut off from enabling someone to run the software who doesnt own it, but if the average joe finds the dongle and he looks to see whats on it I think the chances are very high that it will not make any sense and the dongle gets discarded.
Yet, the current dissatisfaction has escalated quite a bit on here and -now it seems- will continue on SimHQ. In hindsight wouldn't this chance be infinitely higher to begin with?
To be honest, if it were me I would be quite unhappy as well. I can also see eSims point about rules and such, but I miss the 'human factor' in this approach.
Especially since it is hard to grasp for me why its such a big deal to send a replacement to a verified customer. And I sense this is what is unsatisfactory to RyanE as well.
The needless and uncalled for aggression towards Asid has to stop, though. :knuppel2:
Quote from: Asid on December 08, 2016, 05:06:47 AM
Quote from: MikeGER on December 08, 2016, 04:02:53 AM
lately at eSim's customer support
the "Dongle Nazi" :DD
(https://i.imgflip.com/1fkfvi.jpg)
...well, i was always on the fence about SB for a long long time ...tell you something. Now I, your very horder, start looking for a pirated copy >:D if (brownnosy fanyboy Asid's occasional) threads here manage to get me mildly interested in that timesink of a tank study sim now and then again anyway
if niche niche niche grognard (grogheads) customers been seen as buccaneers upfront what ever straight biz-relation they had anyway ...so gents why bother with a valid purchase, it makes no difference
Excellent post MikeGer
Good of you to label someone in such a way, who enjoys a game and helps people who have problems with it. Not to mention advocating piracy. Nazi? Really?
It is a good job that I constantly point people to Grogheads and encourage them to visit here just so they can read comments like this.
Regards
I'm guessing Asaid has never seen Seinfeld >:D
Exactly - the fact that he's on record as being a client - a long standing client by all accounts - should make a company give some leeway - but as I said, some companies are absolutely adamant that clients are out there to rip them off - and as soon as they started taking that stance, they were never going to be putting the client first.
Give the guy a new dongle, block the old one and if it does actually get de-activated - great. If it doesn't...what's that? One client out there using the software illegally? It's a dongle - so it could only EVER be used by one person illegally. wow. For looking after a long term client, isn't that a minute problem? But if you're going to assume the guy has given it to his mate to use, then yeah - you're never really going to help that client out, are you?
It's all down to how you perceive your clients.
Quote from: Yskonyn on December 08, 2016, 07:43:58 AM
The needless and uncalled for aggression towards Asid has to stop, though. :knuppel2:
+100 O0
Quote from: bboyer66 on December 08, 2016, 08:31:03 AM
I'm guessing Asaid has never seen Seinfeld >:D
Can you imagine what they would have done for a Dongle episode? :D
I am the Master of my Dongle
@RyanE please discus these manners with Esims, the forum is not the right place for this. We know your situation is unfortunate, we cant do anything about it, Esims have their rules and policys they have to stick to, the only thing you can reach here is generate hate for esims, there is no point in continuing this. I would have solved it different but my oppinion does not matter here, no ones does. It only generates hate.
@MikeGer, distastefull and destructive comment sir, Please refrain from using language like that. No point in bashing at other members trying to explain things and be helpfull. This is not the first time I have seen you do this. I am about done with you and so are others. Bloody disgrace...
Quote from: Don_prince on December 08, 2016, 10:33:21 AM
@RyanE please discus these manners with Esims, the forum is not the right place for this.
Actually, as an independent gaming site, these forums are a perfectly fine place to discuss it. I am glad Ryan brought it up here.
+1 Yes, I'm also glad this was posted here. Customer service (or lack of) is very important to me as are DRM issues.
I agree that this was the right place to post and discuss this. Now however before this turns into a flame fest is the time to wait and see what Is the outcome of this discussion. Nothing to be gained from either side having proxies chime in. I am interested to learn about the end result. Does this policy remain enforced or is there a learning moment on both sides.
RyanE an update when there is an one would be appreciated.
Well said, Con. O0
Quote from: RyanE on December 06, 2016, 10:27:19 PM
My luggage was lost on a trip back from China
Quote from: RyanE on December 06, 2016, 10:27:19 PM
in the luggage was my SB Pro dongle.
...waiting for the Chinese version of Steel Beasts. Maybe'll we'll get a playable Type 99.
On a serious note, that's a crappy situation. I assume that there's no way to argue with the airline, and I wonder if the Chinese government normally confiscates any data tech leaving the country (DVD's, CD's, thumb drives, etc).
Right, there goes Con, being reasonable and everything again. What am I gonna do with this pitchfork I went and got? :tickedoff:
Also, let me join the Asid Fan Club. He is always extremely friendly and helpful. I suspect sometimes that people hear his helpfulness and positive tone as being somehow a partisan for a company, person, or position. Asid just wants to share the games he loves with as many people as he can. He's a happy Scottish person!
Quote from: panzerde on December 08, 2016, 06:08:25 PM
...He's a happy Scottish person!
WHAT? They just giving that out now? :pullhair:
Quote from: panzerde on December 08, 2016, 06:08:25 PM
He's a happy Scottish person!
There's no such thing!! Lies
Look, statistically there has to be one somewhere, right?
Quote from: panzerde on December 08, 2016, 06:19:11 PM
Look, statistically there has to be one somewhere, right?
Don't bet your dongle on it.
Quote from: panzerde on December 08, 2016, 06:19:11 PM
Look, statistically there has to be one somewhere, right?
The problem is, they're only happy when they're moaning, whilst they're stood outside in the rain so it's hard to tell really
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 08, 2016, 06:26:30 PM
Quote from: panzerde on December 08, 2016, 06:19:11 PM
Look, statistically there has to be one somewhere, right?
The problem is, they're only happy when they're moaning, whilst they're stood outside in the rain so it's hard to tell really
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fslideshows%2Fimages%2Fslides%2F341%2F702%2F0%2FS3417020%2Fslug%2Fl%2Ffat-bastard-1.jpg&hash=b88f63d1c25b25e03f6fa0496021ed50752dc431)
Quote from: Yskonyn on December 08, 2016, 07:43:58 AM
The needless and uncalled for aggression towards Asid has to stop, though. :knuppel2:
I totally agree. Asid is not the problem here.
The problem is the way RyanE has been treated.
He has asked to be treated with a degree of common sense. Crikey, he's offered to pay the replacement cost of the dongle, and is on record as an established customer so I don't get why eSim is playing hardball over this. Do they seriously think he is trying to rip them off, or is it that Ssnake has his nose out of joint because RyanE has made a valid customer service point public? The dual aspect of their business is a red herring in this matter. As a consumer of eSim's commercial product it seems to me to he is getting a raw deal from eSim's customer service.
Quote from: mirth on December 08, 2016, 06:22:06 PM
Quote from: panzerde on December 08, 2016, 06:19:11 PM
Look, statistically there has to be one somewhere, right?
Don't bet your dongle on it.
I'm holding on to my dongle with both hands from here on out. I don't want to have to pay full price for a new one!
Here's a thought. Can you actually copy the license contents of the dongle to another USB stick as backup? I doubt this is possible though.
Hey - I'M still HERE!
I'm f****** happy all the f****** time ya t***s :bd:
Anyway - you go and live in that climate and see how f****** cheerful you end up :2funny: If Washington State was any wetter, it'd still be behind Scotland.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 09, 2016, 01:34:12 AM
Hey - I'M still HERE!
I'm f****** happy all the f****** time ya t***s :bd:
Anyway - you go and live in that climate and see how f****** cheerful you end up :2funny: If Washington State was any wetter, it'd still be behind Scotland.
Man you got up early to be insulted
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 09, 2016, 08:23:48 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 09, 2016, 01:34:12 AM
Hey - I'M still HERE!
I'm f****** happy all the f****** time ya t***s :bd:
Anyway - you go and live in that climate and see how f****** cheerful you end up :2funny: If Washington State was any wetter, it'd still be behind Scotland.
Man you got up early to be insulted
It was either that or sleep in and risk being happy.
He likes to get up early to have more time to be miserable
So an update. This is a cut and paste from an email I sent back to esims...
"Now that is showing some flexibility and negotiating. As I said at grogheads, I am waiting another week. My Travel VP is working with United to figure out what happened to my luggage. The funny part is after getting the $100 limit story from a low-level peon at the United Lost Luggage desk, it only took a phone call to the Mileage plus desk to get it to $300. Within 24 hours they upped the amount beyond their standard rules. Note the standard rules part. They saw I was a frequent customer of their airline and I work for a large company that spends money with them.
That's called customer service. I am going to post an update on grogheads that you have shown some flexibility, though I think four months and then suddenly I am back in the same situation is just you kicking the can down the road hoping I'll go away."
esims came back last night and offered to blacklist my dongle, which they had already said they did, and give me four months of free time-based license. While they are finally showing some flexibility, its not much. In the end, to use my software long-term, I will have to shell out $125 for a new dongle. But is the only real movement they have ever shown, other than blacklisting the dongle. As I said above, its kicking the can down the road hoping everyone forgets this in four months.
As to airing dirty laundry in the forum, I want to have a conversation with anyone who doesn't think this was the appropriate medium for this. I had already had email exchanges with esims and gotten zero. What more should I have done? Should Have flown to their offices and met face to face? Do you guys think I would have even gotten what little they are offering if we had kept it to email. They had already stated their position multiple times by email. What should have been my next steps?
Don't shy away. If your willing to post an opinion like that after reading through this thread, I want to hear you advice on how to handle it. Or are the comments just forum posturing?
One thing I found interesting is that Ssnake is really pushing me to get on board with time-based licensing. Every suggestion seems to be to get on board that train. That puts a thought in my head that something is going on with the dongle approach to the DRM and might be why esims is so rigid on replacing a dongle.
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 09, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
He likes to get up early to have more time to be miserable
Maximize the misery. Sounds very Scottish.
Thanks for the update, Ryan. What a PITA. And thank you for posting the experience here. Answers any questions I had about possibly purchasing the product.
I actually bought that RJW game from SES back in the day, despite knowing better about their crappy DRM scheme. I had Jim Rose accuse of me being a hater who had never purchased an SES game, until I posted a copy of my receipt online. The responses you've received from sSnake rival what SES customers used to get from JR. :crazy2:
I wouldn't go that far. I had my run ins with Mr. Rose and he just plain seemed unbalance. Ssnake is the opposite. I don't agree with him. But he is committed to his company and his discussions are generally polite, if a little passive-aggressive now and then. I have a much easier time empathizing with Ssnake than Mr. Rose.
Yeah, I guess that's a stretch, but when I see comments using phrases like ' blackmail', 'exortion' and 'hoarders' I get flashbacks to Rose.
Quote from: RyanE on December 09, 2016, 08:52:13 AM
esims came back last night and offered to blacklist my dongle, which they had already said they did, and give me four months of free time-based license.
I dont understand how that is any sort of compromise for this situation.
Here's a question: If we lose our dongle, do we also lose our license for the upgrades? In your case, if you bought a new dongle (license) would you also have to buy upgrades to 4.0?
Edit: I guess its a moot point. I assume the new dongle would come with the most up-to-date version.
Quote from: RyanE on December 09, 2016, 08:52:13 AM
That puts a thought in my head that something is going on with the dongle approach to the DRM and might be why esims is so rigid on replacing a dongle.
...i heard it through the grapevine ssnake might already be sitting on a solution to solve the problem of customers loosing item in the future ;D
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2F2ic1c29.png&hash=6092dc3446e045f653889ff1b9dab5d352457b33) ^-^
...you better stick to the Time-Limited license solution, i will do ;)
^lmfao!!!
Certainly brings "Plug and Play" to a new level.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.giphy.com%2FHPvfnOuz1tOgg.gif&hash=5aedf4b3ca492dd856ed69172d5eb1ae4cf4659c)
Quote from: RyanE on December 09, 2016, 08:52:13 AM
As to airing dirty laundry in the forum, I want to have a conversation with anyone who doesn't think this was the appropriate medium for this. I had already had email exchanges with esims and gotten zero. What more should I have done? Should Have flown to their offices and met face to face? Do you guys think I would have even gotten what little they are offering if we had kept it to email. They had already stated their position multiple times by email. What should have been my next steps?
RyanE, as a moderator I have zero problems with you using Grogheads to air this issue. Nor do I have a problem with what you've shared. Trust me, if the moderator body as a whole had any issues, well....we're not exactly a shy bunch, it would have been addressed.
Heisensteelgrave doesn't screw around.
Thanks, I had assumed that because no black sedan showed up at 3AM looking for me, it was good. Its more for finding out what other people think my options were. I am genuinely curious if they are someone that just likes to come into a thread and drop a grenade or actually contributing to the community and discussion in some way. I am not arrogant enough to think I have seen all possible options.
Dude, I think any of us would have done exactly what you did by posting about it here. I certainly would have.
So, I guess that's it. I just got an email from Ssnake that I now have a four month license for SB. Prior to that, my last comms with esims was the email I posted above. I guess negotiations are over.
They are going to wait four months and if my dongle gets turned on (hee, hee), they'll kill it. Not sure what the outcome is about that. I would think the likelihood of the dongle showing up randomly is almost immeasurable.
The short of it is, the decision is just pushed down the road four months. Eventually, out quite a bit of game money no matter how you slice it.
Sucky.
imo voicing your issues here are absolutely justified and not only justified, but you owe it to other gamers to give your experiences - as we all do.
People can make their own mind up as to whether they let it affect their choices or not - all you can do - or any of us - is give our experiences.
What I would hope - with anyone doing such a thing - is they give a reasonable and honest account of the issues being raised. I should point out you have not gave me any reason to doubt your account.
No better place imo.
It seems like a reasonable compromise to me. If the /sigh/ dongle is never active during that timeframe, are they providing you a new one /double sigh/?
Dongle, dongle, dongle!!!
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder98/62431098.jpg)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.r29static.com%2F%2Fbin%2Fentry%2F312%2Fx%2C80%2F1650007%2Fimage.jpg&hash=41f2e1d766fabf28357da11228dabafe35d0ab93)
I agree with all of you, only one thing... Wait for some time, before that discuss in private circles... What happened is that the discussion between you and esims was brought here... First leave it a month, now and then contact, get help from people around you but dont go public, especialy when the final word between you and esims hadn't been said. After some time and no solution or a solution to your wish, it is your duty to inform everyone about the outcome.
Just minimise damage to all parties... Thats how I would do it, but I must say if I get very pissed probably I cant keep to it aswell...
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.memecreator.org%2Fstatic%2Fimages%2Fmemes%2F3930095.jpg&hash=2a956d5f2e66ddf807bc5e74dd6a4e0bca75af77)
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder638/500x/59136638.jpg)
Quote from: Don_prince on December 09, 2016, 12:51:00 PM
I agree with all of you, only one thing... Wait for some time, before that discuss in private circles... What happened is that the discussion between you and esims was brought here... First leave it a month, now and then contact, get help from people around you but dont go public, especialy when the final word between you and esims hadn't been said. After some time and no solution or a solution to your wish, it is your duty to inform everyone about the outcome.
Just minimise damage to all parties... Thats how I would do it, but I must say if I get very pissed probably I cant keep to it aswell...
Disagree, since RyanE's understanding was that negotiations were over at the beginning of this post. Why put it off a month to discuss?
Exactly. There was no negotiations or even flexibility. I was told pretty straight forwardly my options were to rebuy the game. So sit around a monyh for what? We had already had three rounds of emails. I got nothing from them until they were taken to task in public. Waiting around a month would just allowed esims a month to hope it all gets swept under the rug. I am at a real loss as to what the month would have garnered for. I am 99.999% sure esims wasn't going to budge. Even with the beating they have taken here, they really haven't conceded anything, just pushed any closure four months down the road.
What I find strange is that my feeling is esims wants us to give them the benefit of the doubt that we don't see all the machinations in the background of their DRM solutions. But when they are asked to give one of their customers (a proven customer who has bought just about everything they have put out on the gamer side) the benefit of the doubt, suddenly there this unassailable rule about having forensic evidence of the missing dongle. It is a typical two-faced approach to customer service and PR. If esims wants to be cut some slack on the forum of public opinion, let them pony up some proof like they asked of me. Show me dongle receipts, labor costs, etc.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1160.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq499%2Fwmar1967%2F1446584766581_zpsjmfvri6d.jpg&hash=c00c88fc34c93b019a507b19d3ebe6f6b098f73d) (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/wmar1967/media/1446584766581_zpsjmfvri6d.jpg.html)
ROFL & LMAO
Well, I wouldn't be pleased with those results, RyanE, but the upside is you've caused some very entertaining meme's to show up on the site. There is that.
Silver linings and all.
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 12:24:08 PM
Dude, I think any of us would have done exactly what you did by posting about it here. I certainly would have.
Me too. It's a good warning for us all.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 09, 2016, 12:39:47 PM
imo voicing your issues here are absolutely justified and not only justified, but you owe it to other gamers to give your experiences - as we all do.
People can make their own mind up as to whether they let it affect their choices or not - all you can do - or any of us - is give our experiences.
What I would hope - with anyone doing such a thing - is they give a reasonable and honest account of the issues being raised. I should point out you have not gave me any reason to doubt your account.
No better place imo.
Completely agree. O0
Pushing it off 4 months allows either your luggage to show up, in which case you'll have your dongle back, or for your lost dongle to suddenly activate online, in which case I understand eSims may consider that proof you've lost your dongle and allow you to buy a new one at cost. Basically, they're giving you 4 months to play the game to see if another solution to you buying a whole new game comes up.
RyanE I get your point. If it was me, I probably would have just sold you a new dongle. But, certainly there are plenty of examples I could use to counter your argument. I've had any number of pieces of software or electronics die or disappear over the years. I never thought to contact their customer service for a replacement just because I lost something, even if I was a routine customer. If I pack up a copy of my HPS Midway in my luggage, and the airline loses the disk, I don't expect HPS to ship me a new one just because I've bought 4 or 5 of their games over the years.
I do sympathize with your plight, and see your point. But ultimately you lost it, and that IS your fault. And, just because you've bought $200 worth of software from eSims doesn't obligate them morally or any other way to replace the software at anything but full price. Again, I do see your point, but on the other hand, this situation isn't much different from many others where I've had things lost or stolen and the burden has been on me to replace the items. I mean, I've bought dozens of pairs of Levis over the years, but I don't expect Levis to replace my jeans if my luggage gets stolen just because I've bought lots of their jeans before. Etc.
Apples and oranges, Toonces. A better analogy would be losing your car keys, asking the dealer to sell you a new set, and the dealer says you'll need to buy a new car.
As far as I'm concerned, the dongle is the software. It's the same as a game with a disk check (like HPS). If you lose the disk, even if you can download the game, you can't play it without the disk.
Interesting take on DRM.
In a perfect world, eSims would just put SB on Steam like everyone else in the world, including Eagle Dynamics, another company that makes most of its profits through military contracts.
Quote from: Toonces on December 09, 2016, 03:39:08 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the dongle is the software. It's the same as a game with a disk check (like HPS). If you lose the disk, even if you can download the game, you can't play it without the disk.
But that's the ancient way software was delivered CDs format. These days most digital sellers will allow you to re-download and activate something you paid for. That includes the ones that have tight drm.
If Ryan had come here and said his laptop was stolen and isn't it awful that eSims won't give him $200 worth of free software, we'd all have told him to go pound sand. But that isn't what happened. What he is asking for is to replace, at his expense, a $40 security dongle so he can use the $200 worth of software he already paid for.
Hold on a minute. I have twice had CD/DVD replacements sent to me on request. It cost $5 + S&H to replace. One of them was BFC with a CM1 game and the other was MS Flight Simulator. I think X-Plane used to have the same policy.
I'll also come back to one of most hated types of companies that out does esims...cell phone companies in the US. As I have stated, my family and I have lost one of phones twice. In both cases, Verizon replaced the phones for a fairly nominal fee and no activation fee. Part of it was because I had been a long-time customer...wadda you know.
The word dongle was built for memes. Its almost too easy.
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 03:41:53 PM
Interesting take on DRM.
I thought DRM was there notionally to prevent the pirating of software (although clearly it doesn't in practice in many cases). The point being it is there to stop unauthorised people accessing software. It is not there - at least in the arguments in favour of DRM - to punish legitimate users when things go wrong.
The issue here is that someone authorised to access the software is being prevented because of the DRM even when the company know that he is a legitimate customer. The issue Toonces makes about DRM is just smoke and mirrors to the substantive issue of a known legitimate user being prevented from using the software he has already paid to use.
Asking to have a replacement dongle with RyanE offering to pay the costs of the dongle replacement so that the company is not out of pocket seems a perfectly reasonable approach. I haven't yet seen any logical argument justifying why RyanE is making an unreasonable request.
Mirth sums it up really well:
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 04:03:30 PM
If Ryan had come here and said his laptop was stolen and isn't it awful that eSims won't give him $200 worth of free software, we'd all have told him to go pound sand. But that isn't what happened. What he is asking for is to replace, at his expense, a $40 security dongle so he can use the $200 worth he already paid for.
Man, DRM threads get more mileage than just about anything else :D
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 04:23:21 PM
Man, DRM threads get more mileage than just about anything else :D
Almost as much mileage as Bawb's mustache...OH SNAP!
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 04:23:21 PM
Man, DRM threads get more mileage than just about anything else :D
That's because it's generally hated/disliked by customers. Most people put up with it because they have little choice if they wish to be legitimate users. This has been a big selling point on GoG for some time now.
Even developers know that it is not a panacea even when they push ahead with it. Games are relatively inexpensive these days, but if you really want a pirate copy of a game it is not so hard to obtain one (leaving aside for a moment all the horrific malware you might obtain as well, depending on the source :o).
For the record, I'm not endorsing piracy. I'm just saying that with the number of DRM cracked games out there, the DRM tends to be the burden for the legitimate customer, rather than for the person who would go down the pirate route for a game where the DRM is bypassed.
Better a dongle than a dangle
I agree with one of RyanE's premises: understand the DRM of SB Pro if you choose to go the dongle route. If you lose the dongle, you're out the price of the entire software package.
A consumer should know and understand this policy, and then make an informed purchasing decision.
My view regarding this particular software is that I equate the dongle to the physical game...like a book. If I lose it, I will have to re-buy the book; I won't be able to just download the Kindle version or re-buy it for the cost of the paper.
That's how I view THIS game. Not all games. Because all companies that produce games are not one size fits all.
I just don't have any negative feelings towards eSims for their decision to RyanE. I understand and accept their decision. While it would be nice to make an exception, I don't conversely feel they're in any way bad for not making an exception.
I've been carting my dongle around for probably 6-10 years now. My tolerance for various DRM's has evolved. If I were a new customer today, I doubt I would buy a game that requires some physical piece of hardware...there are just too many other options available that suit my style now.
Quote from: Boggit on December 09, 2016, 04:37:37 PM
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 04:23:21 PM
Man, DRM threads get more mileage than just about anything else :D
...the DRM tends to be the burden for the legitimate customer, rather than for the person who would go down the pirate route for a game where the DRM is bypassed.
Amen brother O0
I commend both RyanE and Ssnake, and the Grogheads crowd in general for that matter, for the level-headed discussion on a topic that could easily have devolved into a flame-fest. I think that speaks volumes about the crowd that hands out here.
Well done, gents. :bd:
The memes saved the day :P
Hugs?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 09, 2016, 04:30:37 PM
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 04:23:21 PM
Man, DRM threads get more mileage than just about anything else :D
Almost as much mileage as Bawb's mustache...OH SNAP!
Oh no you didn't!
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 09, 2016, 04:30:37 PM
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 04:23:21 PM
Man, DRM threads get more mileage than just about anything else :D
Almost as much mileage as Bawb's mustache...OH SNAP!
NOOOoooooooo
oooo
DRM = Dongle Restricted Moustache
Quote from: Toonces on December 09, 2016, 04:52:10 PM
I agree with one of RyanE's premises: understand the DRM of SB Pro if you choose to go the dongle route. If you lose the dongle, you're out the price of the entire software package.
A consumer should know and understand this policy, and then make an informed purchasing decision.
That's a very fair point. O0
The question is whether it is actually made crystal clear to the consumer at the point of purchase, or very well hidden somewhere in the small print where it's unlikely to be noticed.
Quote from: Toonces on December 09, 2016, 04:52:10 PM
My view regarding this particular software is that I equate the dongle to the physical game...like a book. If I lose it, I will have to re-buy the book; I won't be able to just download the Kindle version or re-buy it for the cost of the paper.
I get where you are coming from, but the reality seems that it is DRM to restrict access to a legitimate user. This is what RyanE's argument mostly hinges upon.
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 05:05:23 PM
DRM = Dongle Restricted Moustache
:2funny:
With a homage to Bawbs moustache...
ROFL - some class stuff there - I love the double-bass on wheels :))
...I prefer the Led Zep version myself.........
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.memes.com%2Fmeme%2F1327131&hash=6598785a015f834cc9c58e74b2a95741afa177fe)
Where do we vote for Grogheads best thread of 2016?
You need a dongle for that.
^ :2funny:
Quote from: Boggit on December 09, 2016, 04:21:18 PM
Quote from: mirth on December 09, 2016, 03:41:53 PM
Interesting take on DRM.
I thought DRM was there notionally to prevent the pirating of software (although clearly it doesn't in practice in many cases). The point being it is there to stop unauthorised people accessing software. It is not there - at least in the arguments in favour of DRM - to punish legitimate users when things go wrong.
The issue here is that someone authorised to access the software is being prevented because of the DRM even when the company know that he is a legitimate customer. The issue Toonces makes about DRM is just smoke and mirrors to the substantive issue of a known legitimate user being prevented from using the software he has already paid to use.
Absolutely agree.
:clap:
To toonces...
But the math doesn't add up. They know I bought $200 or worth of SW. They have the receipts. They know I have been using it for years. I didn't lose the SW, I lost a $25 dongle that lets me use it. If the dongle is the SW, what heck am I downloading for the last few years. What is the worst that can happen to them. I am offering to pay all costs on the dongle. This isn't about an arbitrary rule bu esims, its about logic and customer service. They haven't presented any real argument about why this rule is in place and why they can't be flexible. If they came to me and said we have a contract that says we can't do that, I can buy that. But they haven't.
Here is the equation:
Pros for selling a new dongle:
1) Happy customer
2) Good PR for customer service
3) No net cost to esims and customer continues buying
Cons:
1) Pissed off customer
2) Lose an opportunity to take another $125 our of a customer's pocket
3) Some really bad PR
4) the loss of at least a few sales here that most likely add up to more than $125
So esims is losing money on this deal. Why????
If this was a publicly traded company, a CEO would be taken to task by its board for that business logic.
Re-reading my own post and the pros/cons; the only really logical reason for esims holding the line here is they want my $125. Am I missing a pro or con that would tip the balance to esims solely wanting my $125? I can't think of one except Sanake originally saying that he didn't want to set a precedent. And what precedent would that be? Letting the customer use the SW they spent a couple hundred dollars on at no net cost to esims. And by the way, esims does have the discretion to say, hey, a good customer, we decide to help you out. Instead, it like a snake eating its tail. esims says sets it own rule and then says we can't break a rule that's been set.
One thing I have noticed that connects to my real job. Government contractors operate in a very black/white world. Little flexibility and everything by the book. This is especially true of defense contractors. I have seen companies that start out as defense contractors try to work in the commercial and retail space before. They rarely get the nuanced business processes of customer service. Because in the defense supplier world, there are no nuances. Every thing is rigid and any thing that doesn't align does not get done or needs a change order. Maybe I should submit a change order for $35 for the cost of a new dongle. I think we are seeing why esims has a successful government business, yet continues to struggle when meeting up against the general public. LL Bean they are not.
I know this seems like I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth, but I don't disagree with you Ryan. I've always felt that if I had an issue with some software where the developer posts on Grogheads, I could say, "Hey, I'm Toonces from Grogheads and here's my problem..." and that would buy me some flexibility with the company.
For example, if I had a problem with Matrixgames, hopefully I could use the credibility I've developed here to get some exception or...something...if I had a problem. Like, "Hey guys, you know me, I'm not just some Shmo off the street looking to scam you."
So, given the relatively niche space eSims occupies, and given your record both here and documented by your receipts, I probably would have handled things differently.
But I'm not eSims, I have no idea what their company is like, and maybe they just can't. Or won't. They don't owe you. I'm sitting here thinking their margins aren't so slim that they can't afford to make a mistake with you, and a few more times....or maybe they are. What if you're really taking advantage of them? I assume they can eat a loss or two...is it worth you posting a thread about how awesome their customer service was vice this thread?
I don't know. This is the calculus they worked through and came to this conclusion. I don't think they're bad guys because of it. I take it as a data point going forward for future purchases. I think this was your point in the first place.
You both have valid arguments.
But again...they will make money SELLING a new dongle to me.
I will probably upgrade again over the next two years - lets say $50 net for esims
At worst, they charge me total landed cost of the replacement dongle - net of $0 to esims
Let's say they have lost to xmas sales this year over this just looking at this forum - $250
So thier choice is make maybe $125 extra from me, but most likely nothing at this point, or...
Make a pretty solid guess at $300 if they had an ounce of logic in them.
I am not saying they are obligated to replace my dongle, but just logic and even mediocre business logic says they should do it. That is why, unless they a a terribly run business or the most pedantic company in the world, which might be the same thing, there is something else there that esims isn't saying. My guess is they are trying to move off the dongle. Maybe it eats into margins or has become a support nightmare. Maybe they are trying to sell the company and the time-based license is attractive to a corporate buyer. We can only guess, because anything else fits no business logic.
Quote from: RyanE on December 09, 2016, 07:01:41 PM
One thing I have noticed that connects to my real job. Government contractors operate in a very black/white world. Little flexibility and everything by the book. This is especially true of defense contractors. I have seen companies that start out as defense contractors try to work in the commercial and retail space before. They rarely get the nuanced business processes of customer service. Because in the defense supplier world, there are no nuances. Every thing is rigid and any thing that doesn't align does not get done or needs a change order.
I've been thinking along these lines since the start of this thread. eSims is used to operating in environments where things are very defined, serving large, government customers. For this issue - and I suspect others on the consumer side of their business - their tendency is almost certainly going to be to want to set policies and stick to them. In their world, exceptions to policies are not permitted, because once an exception is made, if someone else hears about that, then pretty soon everyone will be demanding that exception. This is a very real-world situation for them in their defense contracting world (I used to deal with defense contracting too, once upon an age). In their world, trying to refuse an exception to one customer when you've allowed it for another can have significant administrative and even legal consequences. So, the government contractor thinking gets carried over to the consumer side, where it really doesn't play well, at all.
So, while I can't agree with how eSims handled this, I can understand it, and what may have influenced their thinking. I've been acquainted with Ssnake through forum posts and the like for years now, and I don't think he's a deliberate hard ass, or wants to deliberately screw a customer. I think from his perspective he genuinely sees making an exception here to be potentially opening the floodgates to all kinds of unsubstantiated dongle replacement claims (okay, give me a minute while I laugh about "dongle replacement claims). I don't think he's
right, and I completely agree with RyanE and Mirth that losing the means of access is not at all the same as losing the product. But I can understand why he might think the way that he does. Nonetheless, I hope RyanE gets back his ability to play the game without having to shell out $125.
But even with that thinking your forgetting 2 key points:
1) We now know they can blacklist dongles and deactivate them if you try to use them
2) We know the replacement costs are about $35. btw, we used to pay $15 for volume in the hundreds.
One more thing we can guess at is that the commercial side of their business is probably not very big...a niche of a niche
Add that up and what do get? There really isn't much of a downside. If it becomes so onerous because of the volume of lost dongles, it shows that a lot of people are playing SB. And charge $50 for the lst dongle. esims makes $15/loss. If the numbers are so great, they'll actually make money.
No, there is something else up behind this. The fact the are pushing hard for me take a time-based license hints there are issues with the dongle business ( I just say these things to make you guys giggle like little girls).
I'm probably repeating myself here but my perception of the situation is different. Someone else - United Airlines - lost the CM stick by way of losing the suitcase. That's nobody's fault but the United's. They offered absolutely insufficient compensation for their failings, in direct violation of IATA regulations (as far as I understand it). And because United is hard to deal with, the owner of the suitcase is looking for compensation elsewhere, and picking on the weakest party in sight. I almost wrote the "weakest link in the chain" but that would imply at least some marginal amount of responsibility.
A purchase was made, years ago. That purchase compensated eSim Games for a decade of work invested into the development of the software. We delivered a CM stick, and a license, and both worked. We offered upgrades to the software. The customer decided that the upgrades were worth the price that we were asking for. On every single occasion eSim Games fulfilled its contractual and moral obligations. Licenses were delivered, the software worked as advertised. That much is undisputed.
I'm still missing the part where eSim Games is responsible for the disappearance of the CM stick, or any other form of negligence. eSim Games fulfilled its part of the various deals to the fullest extent; often enough we ovedelivered, with software features that were included (but not advertised), offering free licenses in competitions, and other stuff.
That we would offer a free replacement in case of loss was never advertised, never implied, never promised.
No - the matter was almost immediately taken to the public to depict us in a negative way. You may see it as objective "citizen reporting" to "warn" everybody about eSim's business policies - but the fact remains that the responsible party for the whole mess, United Airlines, never stood at the focus of the attention. Was a similar stink raised with UA's hotline, their web site, or in social media?
I haven't checked, but based on what I read so far I highly doubt it. The customer, at least, hasn't bothered much to mention their role - except when pointing out that the Airline was so "kind" to raise its compensation from $100 to $300, when IATA regulations suggest a liability in excess of $1300.- ... is that a new manifestation of the Stockholm syndrome?
eSim Games is perceived as most vulnerable to attack - plain and simple. It's cyber bullying in its purest form, and you're taking part in it - wittingly or not. Before you all double down now, ask yourself if you're doing it because the cognitive dissonance of admitting that you're in the wrong is more difficult to accept.
^
Defensive much?
I stand by my earlier comments re common sense. Customer relationships are part of your brand. You can do with it what you want but in this case penny wise pound foolish seems to fit the bill you are writing.
Isn't this why we keep receipts? To prove we purchased our software? And you have proof of the purchase. I don't see the issue here---If replacement dongle is $35 and said customer agrees then why take any other stance? Blame the airlines? Blame the tooth Fairy--that's merely incidental---it's lost, his purchase is confirmed---honor it. Anything else is pure BS.
I'll pass over any product where you have to have something called a "dongle" to play it. Sorry SSnake, but possibly the majority of the wargaming community has moved past your drm scheme.
I fail to see how you are losing money by letting him purchase a new dongle at nominal cost. In fact, by taking such an illogical position, you've cost yourself potential sales from other customers. How in the world does replacing a dongle in ANY way cause you to lose money? How? He certainly isn't going to buy the software and dongle at full price again. So... You get zero. And zero future purchases from him. And now from others here. I get that it cost you a lot of time, money, and risk to create the software, but that is totally irrelevant in his case. He's more than compensated you for that.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 09, 2016, 09:26:51 PM
I'm still missing the part where eSim Games is responsible for the disappearance of the CM stick, or any other form of negligence.
Its called customer service. Perhaps this is a cultural issue, but where I live your behaviour would be unheard of. Vendors typically don't use term like negligence, weakest link or any of the other bizarre phrases you've trotted out, they just do everything possible to assist customers in order to retain them; particularly when there is no financial loss.
You have probably spent more time arguing why a licensed holder of your software shouldn't use it than it would have taken to accept payment, send another dongle and ensure that not only was the customer happy, but that he would have spread the word to others.
I can't imagine you're going to garner any new customers from your behaviour, maybe you would have gotten one, or more from the opposite.
No offence, as I say it's probably cultural.
I think you are not reading this forum. It has been repeated over and over. No one holds esims responsible for losing luggage or the dongle. In fact, I don't think anyone here even suggests esims is in any way officially obligated to replace the dongle. But, and its the big but, common sense, logic, and common customer service best practices would say that if you can help a customer at no loss to yourself, you should do it.
Throw up the smoke screen that you are somehow being help responsible for the loss is one way to get a serious flame war going. It shows a complete lack of respect for the arguments being made here. It shows you aren't reading the posts, you are emotionally attached to your position, and you really don't care about someone else's position.
Your retort should be to use some logic to point out how helping a customer hurts esims business, shareholders, and future earnings. Otherwise your responses only make you look, as I have said before, pedantic, unyielding, and illogical.
Now my logic might be flawed. Please point out any of the things I have stated that I consider common sense, but you consider wrong.
As to immediately reporting I shall again consider posting the emails. Feel free to use our exchanges to bolster your position. If you think I would somehow be hurt by doing that, I won't be. Your emails were very to the point and left no uncertainty in what you were going to offer. Again, please point out where I am wrong. Also, please point out what waiting would have done. Would you suddenly have woken up in the middle of the night and realized the error of your ways? Could I have sent more emails to convince you differently? Please enlighten me on how I should have done this differently. I am also curious if you would have offered me the four free months if I had waited a month. Would you have? On January 7, would have sent me an unsolicited email offering the four months. I think everyone on this thread knows the answer.
Or maybe your feeling a little hurt that someone shined a light on an offhanded decision you made that maybe you didn't think would get the coverage it has in a community that has provided some support for you.
Truly, I want you to respond. Don't walk away and sulk. Tell me what I should have done. Post the emails. Tell people what you offered as a negotiation. Tell people what you would have done if I had waited a month, as one person suggested. I am sure you would much prefer this conversation be in private on a forum where some of your friends would jump to your defense and overwhelm me. I have no connection to this forum, and probably less than you have. So I consider it a pretty neutral ground. Yet, look at the response. There are a number of people here that are probably more upset than I am over how you have responded over the last couple days. I have defended you a couple times here. I know you aren't some ogre with an axe to grind against me personally. My whole point here is to show others who might engage your company what is beneath the surface. If that bothers you, than maybe you need to look back at our email conversation and think about how you, not me, might have handled it differently.
My philosophy in life as a business leader, and engineer, is not to treat people in a way that if they were exposed to the public, would make look like I am not fair and reasoned. You and some of your supporters really seem bothered that this was taken public. What bothers me more than the $125 is that you are more concerned with your decision being made public than that a customer is out $125, regardless of the reasons for the loss. It exposes a lot about esims as a business.
I am hoping I don't have to say this again, but there has to be something else going on here behind the scenes. It just seems so illogical, as to border on randomness. There is something going with this issue from the esims side that I/we aren't being told. Or maybe I am the illogical one.
Here is the first reply from esims. I have redacted actual names and license numbers for obvious reasons. So this started 5th when I sent my first email. Below is the first reply from esims. Ssnake is pretty unambiguous in what my options are.
Hello XXX,
Tuesday, December 6, 2016, you wrote:
XX> I lost my dongle on a recent trip. How do I get a replacement?
I am terribly sorry, but there actually is no way to replace a simple loss, other than a new purchase. Which is probably not what you would like to hear, and I hate being the bearer of bad news like every other guy.
The alternative to CodeMeter sticks and classic licenses are time- limited licenses. They aren't without their own set of issues, but at least it wouldn't set you back by $125.- but rather $39.50 for the first year.
Sincerely yours,
XXX "Ssnake" XXXXXXXXXXX
Second email...you'll note I waited 24 hours to see what would happen. This the time my travel VP was "negotiating" with United to see if there was any hope on the bag.
Dear XXX,
Wednesday, December 7, 2016, you wrote:
XX> Well, ain't that a kick in the nuts.
XX> So this is a big thank you for being a loyal customer for years.
XX> I'll make sure others know about the risk of working with your
XX> company.
XX> I would suggest you rethink your entire DRM issue if it is keeping
XX> your customers from using your product.
Well, let me put it this way: You travel, and lose your iPhone. Do you expect a free new iPhone from Apple?
The problem is, the CodeMeter stick is a device, a physical item.
Personally I believe you when you say that you lost it. But there's no way to verify that claim. Others could "lose" it at a friend's place in the expectation to get a free stick as a replacement from us. If we adopted a policy to offer replacements depending on how good of a story someone told us, that would amount to total arbitrariness.
We offer free replacements for CM sticks that fail to work.
We offer a replacement of CM sticks for the costs of material, shipping and handling, if the CM stick is being damaged by the user.
The one case where we're unable to offer is a replacement in the case of loss - because you can't send in some bits and pieces identifiable as the remains of your stick.
I'm very sorry about that.
Sincerely yours,
XXX "Ssnake" XXXXXXXX
Note he never really explains what blacklist means. I suspect it was kind an FU reaction...your pissed at us...well we'll just kill your dongle outright.
Dear XXX,
Wednesday, December 7, 2016, you wrote:
XX> Then you have a very crappy system and I will make sure people
XX> know about it. I ran a HMI software company that used dongles as
XX> security and could easily disable one.
All right, you want your CM stick blacklisted?
I can arrange that.
But that still requires that a thief, if there was one, uses this stick in an environment with internet connection. Once that the stick has been disabled I'm happy to offer you a new one for the cost of material and handling, and to reconstruct the licenses.
The problem is however that the likelihood that this will happen is low, and that it may take a very long time until it happens.
I haven't suggested that because, well, the odds suggest that nothing will come from it. If there's some random person that finds the stick, it would still require them to recognize for what it is, to install the CodeMeter runtime software, and then to NOT understand that they must not connect to the internet while using the stick. Most people who might find the stick will consider it useless and toss it away, I guess. But sure, we may be lucky. I'll identify the stick, and have it blacklisted for you.
Sincerely yours,
XXX "Ssnake" XXXXXXX
I will say that I'd had SB on my list of games to finally get around to buying in 2017. I almost pulled the trigger in my last heavy tanker phase in mid 2015. The only thing putting me off was the dreaded "dongle".
It's off the list now, for obvious reasons. I mean, reading what has gone down with RyanE seems like taking crazy pills. Maybe I'm being protective of a member of this community, but man.
And also +1 to Asid being a stand up fellow. He turned me on to Steel Armor. Will always thank him for that. He's had a great experience with the product, no reason to blame him for that.
And we went back and forth a few times before he "negotiated" with me for the four month license. I will say this he was not emotional. But neither was I. That is how I talk at work all day. Does anyone here think he was going to suddenly change his mind or he was setting up his initial negotiating position in those first couple of emails?
He bought the software off you, or the right to use it. He did not buy or want the Dongle, you forced that on him in the DRM scheme that your company chose.
Your company chose that, because they did not want their software to be pirated. He as a customer is not 'pirating' your software. You as a business should be doing everything in your power to help the customer out.
Airline didn't lose 'his' Dongle, they lost your Dongle! Maybe Bawb has it!
I was just wondering if a dongle has ever been lost in the mail on shipping to a customer. What is esims policy on that? Because, if hasn't happened, it will eventually.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 09, 2016, 09:26:51 PM
I'm probably repeating myself here but my perception of the situation is different. Someone else - United Airlines - lost the CM stick by way of losing the suitcase. That's nobody's fault but the United's. They offered absolutely insufficient compensation for their failings, in direct violation of IATA regulations (as far as I understand it). And because United is hard to deal with, the owner of the suitcase is looking for compensation elsewhere, and picking on the weakest party in sight. I almost wrote the "weakest link in the chain" but that would imply at least some marginal amount of responsibility.
Yes, United Airlines lost the dongle. That was never in contention. Where do you get that the owner of the suitcase is looking for compensation elsewhere and picking on the weakest party? As far as I - and it seems fellow forum members - can determine, you are not being asked for compensation but for a replacement dongle, for which RyanE is offering to indemnify you on costs. You imply that he is asking you for compensation, but on the testimony put forward by RyanE that is not the case.
You perception of the facts is flawed because you are confusing a request for a replacement dongle (with your cost covered) as a request for compensation. Do you not understand the difference? It really is very simple, and not at all controversial.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 09, 2016, 09:26:51 PM
A purchase was made, years ago. That purchase compensated eSim Games for a decade of work invested into the development of the software. We delivered a CM stick, and a license, and both worked. We offered upgrades to the software. The customer decided that the upgrades were worth the price that we were asking for. On every single occasion eSim Games fulfilled its contractual and moral obligations. Licenses were delivered, the software worked as advertised. That much is undisputed.
Indeed. What is the point of stating that though? It is irrelevant to the issue in case.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 09, 2016, 09:26:51 PM
I'm still missing the part where eSim Games is responsible for the disappearance of the CM stick, or any other form of negligence. eSim Games fulfilled its part of the various deals to the fullest extent; often enough we ovedelivered, with software features that were included (but not advertised), offering free licenses in competitions, and other stuff.
That we would offer a free replacement in case of loss was never advertised, never implied, never promised.
Do you really not read the posts here, or is it just a blind spot you have when it comes to disappearance of the dongle that causes you to ignore what has been made very clear already? No one here has suggested for a moment that eSim games is responsible for the disappearance of the dongle. You then waffle on about more irrelevant issues to the disappearance of the dongle until you come to
"That we would offer a free replacement in case of loss was never advertised, never implied, never promised."Mmm. Interesting this idea of a free replacement. You haven't been asked for one. RyanE has offered many times in this thread alone to pay for the cost of replacement. Where does "free replacement" come into it? It doesn't does it? So why talk about it as though it was the issue?
Quote from: Ssnake on December 09, 2016, 09:26:51 PM
No - the matter was almost immediately taken to the public to depict us in a negative way. You may see it as objective "citizen reporting" to "warn" everybody about eSim's business policies - but the fact remains that the responsible party for the whole mess, United Airlines, never stood at the focus of the attention. Was a similar stink raised with UA's hotline, their web site, or in social media?
I haven't checked, but based on what I read so far I highly doubt it. The customer, at least, hasn't bothered much to mention their role - except when pointing out that the Airline was so "kind" to raise its compensation from $100 to $300, when IATA regulations suggest a liability in excess of $1300.- ... is that a new manifestation of the Stockholm syndrome?
Again... you miss the point. United Airlines might have lost the dongle, but it was
you RyanE asked for a replacement dongle. Did you think United Airlines could have provided him with a replacement dongle, or do you think that perhaps it was more rational for him to ask you - the supplier?
That UA are at fault isn't the issue here. We all know they are at fault for the loss of RyanE's luggage, that is why they are being asked for compensation and you are not. You, let me repeat, are merely being asked for a replacement dongle - for which you are being offered an indemnification of costs so that you are not out of pocket.
Quote from: Ssnake on December 09, 2016, 09:26:51 PM
eSim Games is perceived as most vulnerable to attack - plain and simple. It's cyber bullying in its purest form, and you're taking part in it - wittingly or not. Before you all double down now, ask yourself if you're doing it because the cognitive dissonance of admitting that you're in the wrong is more difficult to accept.
Again you are so incredibly wide of the mark to the point where I have to ask if you are being delusional or at worst paranoid about this issue? This is a reasonable customer service request, not some extortion racket operated by RyanE. For heaven's sake man, he's offered to cover your costs for the replacement dongle! If you had handled RyanE's request in a common sense way you wouldn't even have seen this thread.
It seems to me that it is your pride that is getting in the way of resolving this issue sensibly, because you keep digging yourself an ever deeper hole with the irrelevant arguments you keep relying on to make excuses for your failure to act reasonably towards a reasonable consumer. Is a little humility difficult for you? I had to laugh at your sentence
"ask yourself if you're doing it because the cognitive dissonance of admitting that you're in the wrong is more difficult to accept.". Really? Were you talking about yourself, because based on what you have said so far, it seems like it.
I just can't help feeling that you are acting out Otto's level of common sense in the film "A fish called Wanda"
It's a bit late, but maybe you can still retrieve the situation by having the humility to apologise to RyanE for the "misunderstanding" and then resolve this sensibly with him? I hope so, because as someone with no stake in the matter, you really do come out of this badly as an exercise in how not to do customer relations.
I have to say that the dongle thing kept me from buying SB for a long time, and I loved the first version (and spent many hours futilely trying to get it to run on newer versions of Windows).
I finally bought a year license after reading some of Asid's posts, but I would much rather have bought the game (sans dongle).
Ssnake, what you seem unable/unwilling to grasp is that to outside observers (and potential customers) your customer service in this situation has been dreadful. No one has accused eSim of negligence, placed on expectation on eSim to provide customers with free product or said that eSim has a legal or moral obligation to do anything for Ryan. All we have said is that you're providing shitty service to a long time customer.
Enjoy the moral high ground. I spend hundreds of dollars a year on wargames. Based on what I have read from you here in the past few days, I will never spend a penny with eSim.
Quote from: mirth on December 10, 2016, 02:15:03 AM
Ssnake, what you seem unable/unwilling to grasp is that to outside observers (and potential customers) your customer service in this situation has been dreadful. No one has accused eSim of negligence, placed on expectation on eSim to provide customers with free product or said that eSim has a legal or moral obligation to do anything for Ryan. All we have said is that you're providing shitty service to a long time customer.
Enjoy the moral high ground. I spend hundreds of dollars a year on wargames. Based on what I have read from you here in the past few days, I will never spend a penny with eSim.
+1
Ssnake - it wasn't about eSims being responsible. You made that up (several times). You might have thought the implication was there...but no-one has said that.
This was about how eSims has treated this particular client and by extension how they may well treat other clients.
Your attitude on here has come off incredibly bad. You think DRM is incredibly important - customers think customer service is incredibly important. A quick look at your books would've shown you how much the guy has spent with you. All he ever wanted to do (seemingly) was to replace the dongle and, as it turns out, pay for it.
What would you have lost if in fact this customer's dongle (sorry to talk about your dongle like this RynaE :DD ) - (who thought enough of your product to support it with $200) - had been picked up by some unscrupulous person who even knew what to do with it? Perhaps, they may have worked it out, plugged it in and got their copy of Steel Beasts and played it. As you were actually *possibly* able to blacklist it (by the way, how the f*** is that not a guaranteed thing - if it phones home to check it's valid why can the system say "No - you're not valid" - it's only a bloody flag, right?) that meant that there was "no free game" for anyone.
So I don't think your convinced it was lost and actually, your concern is that the client has done something else with it and a snippet from one of the emails between you and the client suggests exactly that...
Quote from: RyanE on December 09, 2016, 10:20:24 PM
Second email...you'll note I waited 24 hours to see what would happen. This the time my travel VP was "negotiating" with United to see if there was any hope on the bag.
Dear XXX,
Wednesday, December 7, 2016, you wrote:
XX> Well, ain't that a kick in the nuts.
XX> So this is a big thank you for being a loyal customer for years.
XX> I'll make sure others know about the risk of working with your
XX> company.
XX> I would suggest you rethink your entire DRM issue if it is keeping
XX> your customers from using your product.
Well, let me put it this way: You travel, and lose your iPhone. Do you expect a free new iPhone from Apple?
The problem is, the CodeMeter stick is a device, a physical item.
Personally I believe you when you say that you lost it. But there's no way to verify that claim. Others could "lose" it at a friend's place in the expectation to get a free stick as a replacement from us. If we adopted a policy to offer replacements depending on how good of a story someone told us, that would amount to total arbitrariness.
We offer free replacements for CM sticks that fail to work.
We offer a replacement of CM sticks for the costs of material, shipping and handling, if the CM stick is being damaged by the user.
The one case where we're unable to offer is a replacement in the case of loss - because you can't send in some bits and pieces identifiable as the remains of your stick.
I'm very sorry about that.
Sincerely yours,
XXX "Ssnake" XXXXXXXX
The bit highlighted above explains exactly how eSims sees it's clients...possible thieves.
When companies choose the DRM they want, they should take the consequences when it blows up in their face.
By the way - had you replaced the dongle for the client (with costs attached - I'm stressing that because I don't want you posting that we were saying you should give your shit away for free), you'd be walking away from a post where you thanked the client (and everyone on here) for the clients post about how fantastic your customer service was and how everyone followed it up on here with how great it was to see a company looking after clients and possibly even people who said they were sitting on the fence but decided what a great company to do business with and were going to buy your product.
You could even have arranged with the client to keep it on the low down because you wouldn't want people to know you go giving new dongles to people when they get lost...just in case there are actually people in this niche market of ours that actually don't want to support the genre and just want it to die and go away.
See how it could've gone? All for the sake of a dongle (with costs!).
There is an explanation to its all: And its called the psychology of human behavior.
RyanE's pure logic is on the spot: making an exception from the rule ("customers has to provide physical forensic evidence of the dongle - a recipe is not enuf prove) gives eSim money, sticking to that rule is loosing money.
Now we have to take into account that sometimes sticking to a rule you had build for yourself after some deep thoughts has a value of it own! (psychological)
-excursus
let's say someone run a 5 star hotel bar and the politics No shoes no shirt no service ....and suddenly some rich Emirates prince with his friends in tow show up too casual and demands some magnum bottles of Champagne. ...so what to do? (i would kick them out, sales or not ... well, cause i hate those types, and that's me ...and it would piss of all my regulars)
And so often men stick to the rules even if that cost them!
It makes them feels better then 'a few bugs more' in the wallet
Now if we go into the psychology aspects of Nils 'ssnake' Hinrichsen, its probably helpful to know that he honorable served 10 years (or more?) as a tank officer in the German Bundeswehr.
We can assume that to be chosen and a decade successful it that job descriptions you had to develop a certain personality.
If you have given out an order, made a decision, implemented a house rule in addition to the ZDv you thought is optimal, you stick to it. Period!
no barracks lawyering, no precedent risks, no nothing
well, an attitude that's perfect on a Schießbahn of Munster tank proving grounds -not to speak about a hot war where its counts even more- , the less its good in 2016 customer service.
Conclusion: I would volunteer (as 'Volksturm' in my age ;-)) to ride into battle under ssnakes command any day when Germany gets under attack -any day, but i would never hire him to be responsible for my company customer support department -Heaven forbid!
-disclaimer-
all sources of information public available
no HUMINT or SIGINT involved ;-)
Come on Ssnake, it's almost Christmas. The man is a verified customer, has been for over a decade and will probably buy another few upgrades if you let him play again.
Is 40 dollars really such a big deal?
He's already at the short end of the stick concerning the loss of his luggage and wargamers need to stick up for eachother. From a man to a man in spirit of Christmas, let him have a new dongle.
It would be a great gesture and make eSims top the chart on respect again with one tiny action.
O:-)
Maybe we should lay off Ssnake a bit.
I think a lot of good points have been raised, suggestions given. Everyone can come to their own decisions and conclusions from the discussion.
Quote from: Yskonyn on December 10, 2016, 06:49:47 AM
Come on Ssnake, it's almost Christmas. The man is a verified customer, has been for over a decade and will probably buy another few upgrades if you let him play again.
Is 40 dollars really such a big deal?
He's already at the short end of the stick concerning the loss of his luggage and wargamers need to stick up for eachother. From a man to a man in spirit of Christmas, let him have a new dongle.
It would be a great gesture and make eSims top the chart on respect again with one tiny action.
O:-)
There are a lot of studies to show that customer goodwill is very hard to regain after the company looses their markets trust. In such a small niche market as ours I would suspect that on the commercial side eSims will find it a very difficult and uphill climb to convince the people in this forum that their policy and DRM and most important their relationship to the customer is worth the purchase of their game.
Their attitude is the exact opposite of what a company striving to gain market share is meant to do. Help, delight, exceed expectations are all terms that are not in eSims mission statement or charter. If you the customer are OK with that its an informed purchase of what you are getting into with eSims. As for me I have plenty of games that I still havent played sitting on my hard drive so its easy for me to write eSims off any future potential purchases. Their model is most likely geared towards military but switching off core market gamers will be significant long term hit. Customer goodwill and brand are an actual item assigned value in any acquisition of a company (think how much the Apple brand would be worth if it went on the market). eSims has only manged to significantly reduce that value by their actions here and I dont see much chance of that changing in the near future.
Quote from: Hartford688 on December 10, 2016, 08:53:35 AM
Maybe we should lay off Ssnake a bit.
I think a lot of good points have been raised, suggestions given. Everyone can come to their own decisions and conclusions from the discussion.
I have to ask, why? He he seems to refuse to read any of the posts. Just like his thoughts on the infinitesimally small odds that my dongle will get plugged in to some PC, I hold the same infinitesimal odds that Ssanke might actually read an actual post here all the way through. I feel he is working off incomplete information in his decision-making. Maybe I can sum up what the fuss is about and not about:
1) esims is not be accused of subverting airport security and stealing luggage
2) esims is not being accused of breaking any contractual obligation for a mishandled dongle
3) esims is being accused of shoddy customer service
4) esims is being accused of inflexibility
5) esims is being accused of assuming a long-term paying customer of running some kind of scam. Ssnake is bascially saying the burden of proof is on me to prove I have no dongle
6) esims is being accused of having an ill-advised and illogical decision-making process
Now esims is not some giant corporation where you can have some sympathy for a bureaucrat being forced to deliver a distasteful message. Its a very small company run by Ssnake. His emails come across as he is following some corporate BS rule that, no matter how distasteful, he is forced to follow. Just one problem...HE MAKES THE RULES. That is what really grates me on this and why I won;t let up. At some point he has to take the bureaucrats hat off and put on the leader hat. He seems to want to hide behind a bizarre web of bureaucratic red tape, that he himself put in place.
So, no, I am not going to cut some slack. Maybe esims will look at this one day and say the game market isn't worth it. At this point, with some sympathy for current players, I don't care. I won't be playing it long, if at all.
I know the people at esims and their loyalists will blame me and make me the bad guy. But I'll put on my bureaucrat hat and say I am just exposing what has happened. If Ssnake or anyone else is embarrassed that this all got exposed, they have only esims to blame. They hold every single card, have all the leverage, etc. Exposing crappy customer service is one of the greatest benefits of the internet. Its a tool that companies underestimate. If I had thought this would be resolved in any other way, I would have waited. But you all can see where this was headed before I started this thread. And note that Ssnake has brought counter my take on events. His only counter is accuse me of attributing the loss of my luggage to esims or stating he can't go against his rules. I don't think he is even being stubborn. I think he is just not reading any of the posts here and trying to insulate himself. I know I am not wrong, based on my arguments.
Yes, you made your point. Many times. As have others.
I may even agree with you.
But now you are just hounding the guy. Is getting unpleasant seeing so many people piling on him.
Enough. Point has been clearly and repeatedly made. Everyone is clear on the situation.
:DD
<Mod Hat On>
OK, every one has made their point and we really can't see that this is going anywhere now, so we think its time to let the dust settle and see what happens.
<Mod Hat Off>
Quote from: Hartford688 on December 10, 2016, 08:53:35 AM
Maybe we should lay off Ssnake a bit.
I think a lot of good points have been raised, suggestions given. Everyone can come to their own decisions and conclusions from the discussion.
This thread was quieting down on it's own until Ssnake posted in it again last night. Every time he posts, he invites a response. And when the topic involves DRM and customer service, a response is guaranteed.
Maybe Ssnake should go back to one of his earlier posts:
Quote from: Ssnake on December 07, 2016, 07:05:44 PM
I'm not interested in further escalation, so I'll refrain from making further posts in public - at least for the moment. Thanks for giving me a chance to present an alternate viewing angle. Who knows, maybe we can all calm down and find a solution after all.
Each time he posts about how eSim is being cyberbullied, extorted, or blackmailed by 'hoarders', he puts the focus back on himself and eSims. The onus is not on anyone here to layoff Ssnake. He's made his position clear on the matter and made it equally clear he is not interested in outside advice or opinions. He should let the thread run its course. Instead, he continues to breathe new life into it.
Quote from: bob48 on December 10, 2016, 09:59:07 AM
<Mod Hat On>
OK, every one has made their point and we really can't see that this is going anywhere now, so we think its time to let the dust settle and see what happens.
<Mod Hat Off>
Sorry about the last post, Bob.
Quote from: bob48 on December 10, 2016, 09:59:07 AM
<Mod Hat On>
OK, every one has made their point and we really can't see that this is going anywhere now, so we think its time to let the dust settle and see what happens.
<Mod Hat Off>
ok...fine....
but I'm not leaving without posting this
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1160.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq499%2Fwmar1967%2FOne-Does-Not-Simply_2_zpsro27oco6.jpg&hash=68358a3f214546cd18f981400048402f5ea91159) (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/wmar1967/media/One-Does-Not-Simply_2_zpsro27oco6.jpg.html)
:hug:
:pullhair:
OK, its done. I'll just go off and play Command and maybe play with my dongle a little.
Just read mod hat bit.
Nevermind..
From a player perspective, I think the biggest problem is lack of competition for eSim.
Competition drives survival.
Survival drives a sense of urgency
Urgency drives things like game development and customer service.
Quote from: Apocalypse 31 on December 10, 2016, 11:56:20 AM
From a player perspective, I think the biggest problem is lack of competition for eSim.
Competition drives survival.
Survival drives a sense of urgency
Urgency drives things like game development and customer service.
Not to mention pricing and customer valuation.
Here is this thread in a nutshell, thanks to Boggit.
Quote"...It seems to me that it is your pride that is getting in the way of resolving this issue sensibly, because you keep digging yourself an ever deeper hole with the irrelevant arguments you keep relying on to make excuses for your failure to act reasonably towards a reasonable consumer..."
I have looked at purchasing games from esims for years..just haven't pulled the trigger. I spend a LOT of money on games. How valuable is customer service, and a companies' reputation? It goes far beyond the replacement cost of a single dongle.
SB Classic, the 4.0 version, with the unlimited license and hardcopy of the ruleset is just over $140. This is hella expensive..and I can only wonder what $140 would get me on this years' Steam sale.
Now, I will never know whether this $140 represents good value or not..as they have lost me as a potential customer.
For the moment, I agree with Hartford688 and Bawb that we give Ssnake the opportunity to reflect on and consider what has been said so far.
It may be that on reflection he will see that there are compelling reasons to exercise his discretion in coming to an agreement with RyanE. If he can do something to amicably and fully resolve RyanE's concerns, then I think he will do much to retrieve RyanE's good faith in the company as well as restore the PR situation within the community.
Look, the guy obviously isn't even reading the posts on the thread. I don't see how a little reflection is going to happen. He appears to not have read any of the arguements, never even considered options when asked, and has provided little in the way of compromise.
Please show me where in any posts, he has shown any amount of compromise. Read the emails he sent me. While he personally doesn't doubt me, the rules are in place. He sets the rules! Its like he is trying to separate his decision from himself, but esims and he are darned close to the same entity. How can he say that he is not accusing me of lying, yet treat me like I am lying. That is typical bureaucratic mealy-mouthing. This is one of those situations where, if I was standing across a counter f2f, I bet the outcome would be different.
Again, I'll point out, financially, esims is losing more on this issue than they are gaining. You can do the math.
I think at this point, pretty much every argument on either side has already been made multiple times. I think we all give it a rest for a bit and see if anything changes, however unlikely that might be. I don't think anyone has done anything wrong or illegal, but I think it sounds as though many of our Forum members would have liked to have seen a different course of action even though none was required.
In either case though, I just don't see anything changing regardless of any further discussion or point trying to be made in this thread
If it continues you can always move it to the Flame Wars category...
Even so, yeah, I think everyone's made their point(s) clearly.
It's worth mentioning that Steel Beasts has been cracked and pirated.
The point being that in theory, people who want to obtain a dongle through deception actually don't need a dongle in the first place and wouldn't actually ask for one.
The same great logic that brought us fantastic DRM that checks to see if the software it's protecting is legitimate.
Moving along...buying an ice cream...leaving the area...
Steel Beasts can be played offline with the dongle. So there is no way to invalidate a dongle to disable gameplay. All you have to do is continue to use the dongle (or sell it). Obviously it cannot be invalidated if it is not present. The $5000 package company was probably combining it with some online mechanism that would require the software to either be connected or check in every now and then. That way they can disable a dongle in a way that it actually prevents the software from being used.
I would suggest reading the entire thread before jumping in.
Quote from: RyanE on December 11, 2016, 04:45:47 PM
I would suggest reading the entire thread before jumping in.
Honestly, I would suggest not jumping in at all at this point.
Two mods and two administrators have already chimed in stating that there has been enough back and forth. No amount of rehashing or restating any point is going to have any impact on the issue. The thread will remain open for now, but any further comment should be dispassionate and it should serve to elevate the discussion, rather than dragging it back down the drain.
Thanks.
Dongle, dongle, dongle!!!!
I think this elevates the discussion
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mememaker.net%2Fstatic%2Fimages%2Fmemes%2F4355242.jpg&hash=52a38821b7684aeecd4d161bc42d472409c58d37)
C:-) C:-) C:-) C:-) C:-) C:-) C:-) C:-) C:-)
{MOD HAT ON}
I'm locking this for 24 hours
This has nothing to do with stifling debate, because we've let it go, on both sides, for quite some time.
Quite frankly, this is being done out of laziness - the mod team is sick of having to keep an eye on this thread.
It's been awesome that you guys can have these kinds of discussions without devolving into a bunch of ad hominem attacks and name-calling, or demonizing people whose position is different than yours.
But we're all suffering from 'overwatch fatigue' and we're going to give people a a day to chill.
One of us will unlock this on Monday sometime, US time (i.e., not Japan time, which would be Monday in about 25 minutes or so)
{HIPSTER BERET BACK ON}
Now unlocked.
no more
Rumble in the Dongle please ;)
sing
Once there was a battle there (In Grogs Lair, in Grogs Lair )
Hundred thousand people there (In Grogs Lair, in Grogs Lair)
All those people gathered there (Grogs Lair, Grogs Lair) to see the rumble about the Dongle there (There (There))
(in Grogs Lair) ^-^
I have my own opinion on the issue...but hey, opinions are like assholes: Everyone has one.
I just wanted to forward a posting made by a SimHQ member "Paul Morrison", that was intended to help the OP and I hope it does.
"In the interests of tying a nice bow on this one, I'm going to provide the following as a free service to SimHQ (you're welcome).
I'm a lawyer, licensed to practice law in the Province of Ontario, Canada. I've been an TA in the area of contract law at a highly regarded Canadian law school. I've researched and helped write several books dealing with specific forms of contracts, and I'm now in private practice in which about 90% of my work involves, in one way or another, contract law. I do consumer protection and contract law litigation, amongst other work. US contract law, while having its own particular legal twists on a state by state basis, is derived from the common law, which is also the basis of Canadian contract law. So, to the extent I'm about to provide an opinion on the outcome of your dispute, should you choose to litigate it, my opinion is based on Canadian law, which, while similar is not identical to US law.
All that said, this is what I think:
Ryan, your beef is really with your airline.
You purchased a license to use a piece of software and a hardware dongle. The dongle was delivered to you and apparently worked as advertised prior to being lost. Title to the goods passes at a time no later than delivery, which means that liability for loss or damage to those goods passes at that time as well. Basically, it would be like buying a car, smashing it after you leave the dealer, and then trying to return it.
From a legal perspective, E-sims *COULD* give you another one, if they wanted. But that's up to them, and them doing so would be a gift. There is no legal requirement to give a gift. Absent a specific contractual clause which obligates e-sims to replace a dongle after loss or damage, there is no obligation for them to do so.
However, I do have some good news. Generally speaking, airlines engaged in international flights (which includes domestic connecting flights) are bound by the Montreal Convention. Per the Montreal convention, the limitation on lost baggage is 1000 SDR. SDR is an International Monetary Fund unit designed to provide a cross-currency calculation. Currently, 1000 SDR = $1361.03 USD. So, if you lost luggage on the way to or from China, you're entitled to the actual depreciated value of your items, up to a maximum of $1361.03 (or whatever the SDR value was on the date of loss).
The upshot is, the airline should be paying for a new dongle, because they lost it, and their $100 max lost amount is bogus under the Montreal Convention.
I hope this helps, have a nice day."
Good advice. We were told that $100 was the max to be paid. Our VP of Corporate travel says he got $300. I'll pass the info on to the VP and see what he says.
I also want to point out, because it appears you didn't read all the posts in the thread. I have from the get-go never said esims was under any contractual obligation to replace the dongle. I have pointed out multiple times that typical practice for a lost security key is placement cost of the key plus any processing charges. In fact, esims will do that if you provide the old dongle back to them. Of course, in my case that isn't possible. My issue was that, from a customer service perspective, it made little to know logical or business sense to not let me pay a fee to replace the dongle. esims says that I have to basically rebuy the SW. The arguments generally made on the forum are around common sense and customer service.
Thanks for the advice regardless and I have to see if the international agreements apply here. My main concern is I know the luggage was lost between a stop in SF to change planes and my final city. I am not sure if the international agreements apply and there is something similar domestically. I passed through immigration and customs in SF and reboarded another plane as my luggage was rechecked. I would think the travel VP would know, but am checking.
Lost luggage (items) are covered by travel insurance. Did you buy one?
Quote from: RyanE on December 12, 2016, 03:58:45 PMI also want to point out, because it appears you didn't read all the posts in the thread.
I don't think Ronin_GE would be disputing that, and I don't think the guy he's quoting is reading over here.
Regardless, we've been over all this before :-\
never have
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 12, 2016, 06:18:11 PM
Quote from: RyanE on December 12, 2016, 03:58:45 PMI also want to point out, because it appears you didn't read all the posts in the thread.
I don't think Ronin_GE would be disputing that, and I don't think the guy he's quoting is reading over here.
Regardless, we've been over all this before :-\
Of course I wouldn't dispute this. I did not read the whole thread...after checking pages 1-2 and 15-16, I assumed the rest of the post are in similar fashion. IMHO at least 14 pages of wasted forum space.
nm ::)
So just a quick update...
1) I got $400 back from the airline and a few things from my company. Luggage never found and esims says the dongle never showed up online. So esims's theory that I am out trying to scam them out of a dongle is becoming moot.
2) I have been using a time-based license that esims sent me that I can use until esims decides what to do about my missing dongle. I had about a month left on it. I had a hard-drive failure a couple days ago. So I sent a note to esims thinking they would just deactivate my old license and let me activate a new one with the remaining time on it. But, guess what...no can do. If you have a time-based license, and you have a HD failure, you are also pretty much screwed. In fact, this might be more risky than the dongle.
I know I shouldn't be surprised by esims at this point, but if anyone thinks the time-based licence is the better alternative to a dongle, they are mistaken. I gotta tell you, esims just wasn't built for the retail market. And this is the type of thing that has me concerned with the decisions being made around Matrix's Command game.
Reminds me...
I need to sell my dongle. Haven't been playing lately, and not sure if I will be anytime soon. May as well cash 'er in. Gonna get Ebay'd next month.
Was of the understanding, when I purchased, that transferring ownership was just fine.
Quote from: Nefaro on February 19, 2017, 06:38:41 PM
Reminds me...
I need to sell my dongle. Haven't been playing lately, and not sure if I will be anytime soon. May as well cash 'er in. Gonna get Ebay'd next month.
Was of the understanding, when I purchased, that transferring ownership was just fine.
You're the shady figure seen hanging round luggage carousels then?
Quote from: Nefaro on February 19, 2017, 06:38:41 PM
Reminds me...
I need to sell my dongle. Haven't been playing lately, and not sure if I will be anytime soon. May as well cash 'er in. Gonna get Ebay'd next month.
Was of the understanding, when I purchased, that transferring ownership was just fine.
I would actually consider buying it from you. If you can confirm it can be transferred, I would seriously consider it.
Quote from: undercovergeek on February 19, 2017, 07:28:16 PM
You're the shady figure seen hanging round luggage carousels then?
Everyone knows dongles and carousels don't mix!
Quote from: RyanE on February 19, 2017, 07:47:09 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on February 19, 2017, 06:38:41 PM
Reminds me...
I need to sell my dongle. Haven't been playing lately, and not sure if I will be anytime soon. May as well cash 'er in. Gonna get Ebay'd next month.
Was of the understanding, when I purchased, that transferring ownership was just fine.
I would actually consider buying it from you. If you can confirm it can be transferred, I would seriously consider it.
I'll check into it.
I know that people have been selling theirs for years. Being able to was the main reason I buckled and paid the big money for it, knowing I could get some of the cost back if need be. Just gotta figure out if I need to give any special notification or info to eSims.
It is the previous version of SBPro (3.027/3.028), so it would still require a further purchase of the latest big update ($40). A new one would cost $125. So I'm gonna price it a tad lower than the difference when I sell.
Will update once I get something solid.
Final update unless something goes horribly wrong. Bought a used dongle from Mr. Nefaro. As much as it pained me, had to buy the 4.0 upgrade also. But my goal of minimizing how much I gave esims was met. A big thank you to Nefaro for making the transaction as smooth as possible.
Happy simming, RyanE. O0 Kudos to Nef.
All worked out well. :bd:
Just saw this on steelbeats.com.
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11383-concerned/
Posting just for completeness.
Quote from: RyanE on March 14, 2017, 03:13:23 PM
Just saw this on steelbeats.com.
http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11383-concerned/
Posting just for completeness.
Here's the money quote from ssnake:
Quote
a) Customs in Canada are notoriously slow; three weeks appear to be the norm rather than the exception.
b) If a stick disappears before the license has been activated, we'll send a new one without proof of destruction.
Once that the license is activated the situation is different, of course.
This is a POS company...one I will NEVER do business with.
I am still playing SB Gold, thank you very much.
Did they ever change the resolution on gold I remember my older game was only 640 x480?
Quote from: Wburn on March 16, 2017, 04:59:20 PM
Did they ever change the resolution on gold I remember my older game was only 640 x480?
Not that I'm aware of. And it bothers me not a wit. I am an old-school gamer to begin with and eye candy in and of itself does not impress me as much as gameplay.