So better stay away from Steel Beasts dongles

[Father Ted]

I just want to point out I didn't even think of people posting here as "loyalists".  I was thinking of SteelBeasts.com crowd.  I am still not sure where the comments on personal attacks come from.  The quote that is posted doesn't reflect that at all.

Maybe this is superfluous, but in the interests of stopping Grogheads' infighting:  RyanE and several others posted about the paucity of the company's customer service. Asid then posted evidence of the company's active customer service - not in contradiction of the current case, just saying that they're not complete cowboys.  The kicker is that RyanE then posts directly after to say that "esims is not customer friendly outside a little gaggle of loyalists".

To my mind, that sequence of posts looks like RyanE is saying that Asid is an "esims loyalist", whether or not that was the intended outcome.  That's where the comments on personal attacks come from.

[mirth]

I just want to point out I didn't even think of people posting here as "loyalists".  I was thinking of SteelBeasts.com crowd.  I am still not sure where the comments on personal attacks come from.  The quote that is posted doesn't reflect that at all.

Maybe this is superfluous, but in the interests of stopping Grogheads' infighting:  RyanE and several others posted about the paucity of the company's customer service. Asid then posted evidence of the company's active customer service - not in contradiction of the current case, just saying that they're not complete cowboys.  The kicker is that RyanE then posts directly after to say that "esims is not customer friendly outside a little gaggle of loyalists".

To my mind, that sequence of posts looks like RyanE is saying that Asid is an "esims loyalist", whether or not that was the intended outcome.  That's where the comments on personal attacks come from.

It's cute that you think it's going to stop the infighting  ;D

[Ssnake]

I guess the question is, do you believe the veracity of the claim? If you do, charge whatever you need to cover your costs and send a replacement. If you do not, don't issue a replacement. If the guy can provide proof-of-purchase, I don't see where the problem is.

The point I was trying to make is that we set up a policy where it shouldn't matter whether I (or anyone else who might be working on customer support) believe a claim to be true. Maybe I am pedantic in my attempt to eliminate personal bias and the quality of the story being told. Our guideline is whether a claim can be verified.
Also, I find it somewhat unfair that eSim Games is blamed for mistakes that others made - the airline, which lost the suitcase to begin with, and offers a mere pittance for compensation. The unreasonable policy of his employer to cover only a part of the loss that occurred during a company-mandated travel. The way it appears to me is that we are being singled out as the most vulnerable party, and that the essence of the negotiation tactic is extortion:
"Do as I want, or I go public".

That's not how I roll.


I tried to offer an alternative view point to look at the situation to find a creative way out, but it was roundly rejected. When I complied with the demand to blacklist the CM stick I wasn't even given the time to explain that it wouldn't work immediately. Rather, I was accused of stealing his license (just in case that the suitcase would show up, after all- apparently there still is a chance for that); which is rich - after all, I blacklisted the stick on his direct request, as fast as I could. When I gave the technical explanation how the blacklisting worked, this thread was opened already to drag the case into the public.

I'm sorry. I may be looking like a pedantic ass, but if there is one thing where I react very badly, it's blackmail and extortion. It may not be intended like that, and my hand remains outstretched for further negotiations despite a somewhat difficult atmosphere at this point. But I'm not sure if RyanE is actually interested in a solution other than total surrender on my part.

[mirth]

Blackmail and extortion are pretty strong words and don't do you any favors from a customer service perspective.

I can tell you I would be pissed too if I couldn't play a game I had invested $300 in and got the CS response you are giving here.

Obviously it's your business and you should run it however you want, but you shouldn't be surprised when a customer publicly airs dissatisfaction. Particularly when it comes to a problematic DRM setup.

[Ssnake]

It is not the Customer's fault that the DRM costs a lot of money.

Never said it was.

May be a sign that it is time to get rid of that form of DRM!

If SB Pro PE was nothing but a game, and if eSim Games was just an entertainment company, definitely!

Alas, eSim Games is first and foremost a company for military training solutions where the main product, SB Pro (without the PE), is an export-controlled software, Certain embargo countries have already demonstrated efforts to steal the source code. To make the Personal Edition possible at all (a release to the general public) it takes the best code protection that we can get.

[Don_prince]

I guess the question is, do you believe the veracity of the claim? If you do, charge whatever you need to cover your costs and send a replacement. If you do not, don't issue a replacement. If the guy can provide proof-of-purchase, I don't see where the problem is.

The point I was trying to make is that we set up a policy where it shouldn't matter whether I (or anyone else who might be working on customer support) believe a claim to be true. Maybe I am pedantic in my attempt to eliminate personal bias and the quality of the story being told. Our guideline is whether a claim can be verified.
Also, I find it somewhat unfair that eSim Games is blamed for mistakes that others made - the airline, which lost the suitcase to begin with, and offers a mere pittance for compensation. The unreasonable policy of his employer to cover only a part of the loss that occurred during a company-mandated travel. The way it appears to me is that we are being singled out as the most vulnerable party, and that the essence of the negotiation tactic is extortion:
"Do as I want, or I go public".

That's not how I roll.


I tried to offer an alternative view point to look at the situation to find a creative way out, but it was roundly rejected. When I complied with the demand to blacklist the CM stick I wasn't even given the time to explain that it wouldn't work immediately. Rather, I was accused of stealing his license (just in case that the suitcase would show up, after all- apparently there still is a chance for that); which is rich - after all, I blacklisted the stick on his direct request, as fast as I could. When I gave the technical explanation how the blacklisting worked, this thread was opened already to drag the case into the public.

I'm sorry. I may be looking like a pedantic ass, but if there is one thing where I react very badly, it's blackmail and extortion. It may not be intended like that, and my hand remains outstretched for further negotiations despite a somewhat difficult atmosphere at this point. But I'm not sure if RyanE is actually interested in a solution other than total surrender on my part.

Ssnake my compliments on this comment, it shows some insight in being on the other side of the table.

Now lets turn this into something positive, something for us to do in the future...

In case someone lost their dongle, (do mind that in most cases the dongle stays property of the company, its the access to the software you buy) It is probably best to first acess the situation. If there is a high probability of it beeing stolen then it is probably a good idea to inform the company and go over to actions yet. Then if after some time the licence is deemed lost go over to actions.

Since licence sharing is allowed, heck even promoted there is no issue what so ever as you can keep playing. Even with HASP dongles sharing is possible through sharing a specific usb port over the interwebs...

Mistakes where made, and it is good, because it is trough those we learn and that makes us human. Now lets move on...

[Ssnake]

I'm not interested in further escalation, so I'll refrain from making further posts in public - at least for the moment. Thanks for giving me a chance to present an alternate viewing angle. Who knows, maybe we can all calm down and find a solution after all.

[mirth]

I'm not interested in further escalation, so I'll refrain from making further posts in public - at least for the moment. Thanks for giving me a chance to present an alternate viewing angle. Who knows, maybe we can all calm down and find a solution after all.

I appreciate you showing up to provide your side of the story.

[bayonetbrant]

Alas, eSim Games is first and foremost a company for military training solutions where the main product, SB Pro (without the PE), is an export-controlled software, Certain embargo countries have already demonstrated efforts to steal the source code. To make the Personal Edition possible at all (a release to the general public) it takes the best code protection that we can get.

I think the export controls are probably something that not a ton of folks around here really understand as being distinctive from just consumer-level anti-piracy software.  This isn't the forum to really lay out a lot of the details, but if the dongles are needed to comply with a gov't requirement for protecting the code, then no amount of beseeching the company to change the DRM will have any effect as the decision is largely out of their hands at that point.

As to how to deal with the dongle replacement issue, there are multiple possible viewpoints, and at this point, we may have devolved into one of those
"it's gray!"
"no, it's an elephant!"
"no, it's gray!"
"it's a damn elephant!"
arguments

Ssnake has made a good faith effort to explain the company's position.
Some of you are OK with that explanation; some of you are not.

It appears as though eSims aren't going to change their position with the existing set of facts, so unless new facts emerge, then this seems settled for them.

There's nothing stopping you guys from continuing to pile on Ssnake for this position, but doing so isn't likely to change anything, and may simply make Ssnake more gun-shy about coming back to the site to engage in other issues.

I'm NOT saying you have to be OK with their position, but it doesn't sound like it's changing, so arguing / yelling / sulking / whining isn't likely to get anywhere, so just don't expect much of a change at this point.

[mirth]

Alas, eSim Games is first and foremost a company for military training solutions where the main product, SB Pro (without the PE), is an export-controlled software, Certain embargo countries have already demonstrated efforts to steal the source code. To make the Personal Edition possible at all (a release to the general public) it takes the best code protection that we can get.

I think the export controls are probably something that not a ton of folks around here really understand as being distinctive from just consumer-level anti-piracy software.  This isn't the forum to really lay out a lot of the details, but if the dongles are needed to comply with a gov't requirement for protecting the code, then no amount of beseeching the company to change the DRM will have any effect as the decision is largely out of their hands at that point.

I'm not looking to endlessly debate the subject, but it seems like a professional military product that requires government mandated protection may not be suitable as a consumer product. The two things don't seem very compatible and they certainly have very different requirements and expectations.

As a consumer, knowing the cost, DRM setup and potential for problems, I would not purchase SB. Caveat Emptor, I suppose.

[Con]

I wouldnt say Caveat Emptor but instead "ipsa scientia potestas est" - Loosely translated knowledge is power.

I still say common sense would have prevented all this but if the decision is to hew unquestioning to their own internal policy on these dongles then it helps shape my future purchasing options regarding their product.

I applaud RyanE for bringing this policy to common knowledge.

Con

[Nefaro]

ROFL

[Nefaro]

In related news..


I've debated selling my Steel Beasts dongle.

It has the previous SB version on it.   Can't justify being so paranoid about losing the damn thing (which should've been filled with gold dust and crack based on cost) and I haven't played it in a year or more.

[mirth]

I wouldnt say Caveat Emptor but instead "ipsa scientia potestas est" - Loosely translated knowledge is power.

[Ssnake]

There are ways to play Steel Beasts without a physical USB stick. Not everybody here may be aware of this.

We offer the choice to get a license valid for a year ($39.50), four months ($24.50), or one ($9.50). It's perfectly possible to pause between usages; there is no subscription involved, and no upgrade fees.While these licenses aren't entirely immune from a risk of loss, at least they avoid the necessity to keep an eye on a small, lightweight item and rather tie the license to an entire computer (e.g. a gaming notebook, for those among us who travel). The argument that this is more expensive is, IMO, only valid if you intend to play the software non stop, for at least three or four years, and never intend to upgrade your version. If you follow the regular upgrade cycle, the break-even point is somewhere at around six years of continuous playing (+/- 1 year, depending on the price of future upgrades). Once that you take breaks, an option that appears entirely likely to me, the bpoint beyond which a time-based license becomes more expensive, moves to potentially infinite - e.g. if you bought a one-year licenses only whenever there is a major update, and then play it for a year.

You would still have to deal with the procedures of the CodeMeter runtime software and license management, I never made a secret about it. But contrary to some people's expectation the time-based licenses are not an evil scheme of ours to boost our profit margins or anything. Now, some people are hoarders. They just like to OWN a game rather than being able to just play it whenever they want. I can't help with that urge. But at least those who are concerned about the risk of loss of a USB stick should be aware that there are alternatives available.