The "Uber" Command: Modern Air/Naval Ops Thread

[Dimitris]

Fixed  ;D

[Nefaro]

Is there any way to place ASW helo patrol boxes (or any air patrols) in your surface ship formation?  The Formation Editor is very... bare-bones.


If so.. is there also a way to create a surface formation with just one vessel, so we can place it's helo in an ASW ring?

My intial impression with the Formation Editor is that it needs more features.  But perhaps there is some functionality in it that I'm not seeing?

I tend to gravitate towards scenarios with ASW and surface groups, so stationing some patrols in the Form Editor is a must.  It's also nice for placing any kind of patrol (not just ASW) that will move along with the group, of course.

[JudgeDredd]

I'm going to have to reinstall Harpoon tonight

Not to replace this, but I need to sort out what's bugging me...something is bugging me and I need to see what it is - and the only way I can get rid of that demon is to reinstall Harpoon Ultimate and have a look.  :-\

I want to know what Matrix/Slitherine charged me £65 for...I want to do a feature comparison...either so I can be proven wrong or so I can give constructive feedback.

I'll be back - don't fret.  :)

[Nefaro]

Yeah.  I understand.  I find that I'm sorely missing some things, even though I've not fired up the old Harpoons in a few years.  One example is the Click-Drag for custom zoom area.  The Formation Editor features is another.  I keep seeing a lot of functionality features that it needs, every time I play, including the ones JD mentioned here.

This just feels unfinished regarding functionality and UI.  Some of the assistant AI behavior issues I've been having don't help my impressions now, either. 

There's a great successor to the Harpoon series in here, but it's not yet where it should be for such a 'premium' price.  I really didn't want to do any beta testing lately, but I find myself doing just that.  :-\

I hope the developers can get these things sorted before long but all the UI work it needs may take a lot of time and re-work, not to mention the usual bug squashing.

[JudgeDredd]

JD, the tool-program does it automatically, no hassle at all
(get the little program, mark the area of interest, let it do its work, save the file, rename it, switch to C:MNAO, import the file, wait a few seconds, its 132MB in this example  ...and its there )     
 
taking into account that C:MNAO works IIRC with a smoothed 900m tile elevation grid, its fitting quite well, actually the smaller deep valleys in the landscape get smoothed, so they are a little deeper in reality
(see the smaller road bridge, lower right corner, above the Autobahn guarded by the Infantry platoon, the hills are about 300m above sealevel, the valley is 261m in google earth and 281m in C:MNAO , and the bridge is 50m high in reality.... )     

the elevation of my HQ i am just typing from they got quite well  ;)

     

Ok - reading the manual and creating a map...

[JudgeDredd]

Done it - thx to the manual and MikeGer

[JudgeDredd]

Please - PLEASE - hurry up and make the windows, when resized, to be opened at the same size you left them.

Also - in the editor, when you select the things you want to select (Facility, United Kingdom etc) - please remember that information...AT LEAST the country because it's likely I'm going to be adding units for the same country...not wanting to scroll through the list of countries again (I'm making that sound harder than it actually is - but it is a pain).

Two more things...
1. Can you keep the popups to WITHIN your program please. When I have a popup open and then decide to look at the manual (or do something else out the game) the popup is still present and I have to move or close it
2. When creating a new mission - can you tell me BEFORE I enter the name and select the class and type that I need to create/select at least one reference point...or better still allow me to do it once I've filled in the relevant details. It may become second nature to create the reference points before I create a mission - but it's not at the moment and it's a bit annoying...and who knows...it might never become second nature. There's no reason AT LEAST for the game not to tell me to create reference points first if it knows it needs them for a mission.

[bostonmyk]

Is there any way to place ASW helo patrol boxes (or any air patrols) in your surface ship formation?  The Formation Editor is very... bare-bones.


If so.. is there also a way to create a surface formation with just one vessel, so we can place it's helo in an ASW ring?

My intial impression with the Formation Editor is that it needs more features.  But perhaps there is some functionality in it that I'm not seeing?

I tend to gravitate towards scenarios with ASW and surface groups, so stationing some patrols in the Form Editor is a must.  It's also nice for placing any kind of patrol (not just ASW) that will move along with the group, of course.

Hi Nefaro

We didn't do air patrols in the formation editor. Its just meant for ships.

Instead you do air patrols in the mission editor with moving reference points you can anchor to the group or another ship. This is much more flexible.

To do this.

You can drop 4 reference points quickly by cntrl+right clicking and selecting define area. Left click and drag out the area you'd like. This will drop the 4 reference points which are already selected.
Now go to the mission and reference point drop down and pick one of the make selected reference point options and then select the group or unit.  Fixed stays relative to the group position and Rotating stays relative to the groups course. Rotating is what you want to patrol ahead.
Now just create an ASW patrol mission in the editor for the ASW air unit.

Thanks!

Mike

[JudgeDredd]

I fired up Harpoon Commanders Edition...but I just don't have the knowledge of the workings of Harpoon to make any judgement on gameplay.

What I do confirm is that it was just as awkward (possibly slightly more awkward) getting information than in this. For £65 that isn't a great thing - but it is a step in the right direction. Someone else with intimate knowledge of Harpoon would have to make a call on mechanics and functionality to see what is and isn't present.

The interface needs work - as has been pointed out. Information should totally be readily available...absolutely no digging whatsoever should be required. Anywhere where there's a unit, you should be able to see the details of the platform. Looking at a weapon should allow you to look at the specs of the weapon. Looking at a platform should show you key information - including what weapons are available.

The windows need work - allowing growth (mission editor doesn't allow this). Keeping the windows sizes so they open in the same aspect. Not being visible outside the program.

The AI (I think) needs a bit of tweaking. If I tell a unit to attack a unit with a weapon, the platform needs to adjust it's operating parameters in order to achieve that - not just fly continually over the area doing nothing (air units)...or telling a submarine to head in direction x - it should do it - regardless of whether the SoP's or whatever they are say Auto avoid threats...I shouldn't have to go somewhere else to turn that off before getting the unit to do what I want. Also - once it gets to where I have told it, perhaps it should revert - so I don't have to switch it back on. That particular setup may need some investigation - but I certainly feel like the AI fights me...and if I am over-ruling something, it should listen to me...I am the (bad) commander

In the meantime, I'm going to create a mission using the Custom Overlay to get a feel for the editor...then I'm going to go through the manual for key aspects.

I'm happier now than I was this morning when I was thinking about Harpoon:CE...I must've been looking through rose tinted glasses...but I am still to convince myself that this was worth £65 and that it is the all singing all dancing Harpoon successor...but my eyes are still open.

The manual and a decent mission may help.

[JudgeDredd]

Is there any way to place ASW helo patrol boxes (or any air patrols) in your surface ship formation?  The Formation Editor is very... bare-bones.


If so.. is there also a way to create a surface formation with just one vessel, so we can place it's helo in an ASW ring?

My intial impression with the Formation Editor is that it needs more features.  But perhaps there is some functionality in it that I'm not seeing?

I tend to gravitate towards scenarios with ASW and surface groups, so stationing some patrols in the Form Editor is a must.  It's also nice for placing any kind of patrol (not just ASW) that will move along with the group, of course.

Hi Nefaro

We didn't do air patrols in the formation editor. Its just meant for ships.

Instead you do air patrols in the mission editor with moving reference points you can anchor to the group or another ship. This is much more flexible.

To do this.

You can drop 4 reference points quickly by cntrl+right clicking and selecting define area. Left click and drag out the area you'd like. This will drop the 4 reference points which are already selected.
Now go to the mission and reference point drop down and pick one of the make selected reference point options and then select the group or unit.  Fixed stays relative to the group position and Rotating stays relative to the groups course. Rotating is what you want to patrol ahead.
Now just create an ASW patrol mission in the editor for the ASW air unit.

Thanks!

Mike

I like the sound of that

[Grim.Reaper]

hhmmm...I had intentions of purchasing this tonight but some of these issues/comments have me concerned.....besides the UI, any comments on the actual gameplay?  Are you enjoying it besides the UI, or is that really hampering the experience?

[Herman Hum]

The UI user-unfriendliness really hampers the experience.  I find the game a chore to play instead of a pleasure.  :(

[bostonmyk]

I fired up Harpoon Commanders Edition...but I just don't have the knowledge of the workings of Harpoon to make any judgement on gameplay.

What I do confirm is that it was just as awkward (possibly slightly more awkward) getting information than in this. For £65 that isn't a great thing - but it is a step in the right direction. Someone else with intimate knowledge of Harpoon would have to make a call on mechanics and functionality to see what is and isn't present.

The interface needs work - as has been pointed out. Information should totally be readily available...absolutely no digging whatsoever should be required. Anywhere where there's a unit, you should be able to see the details of the platform. Looking at a weapon should allow you to look at the specs of the weapon. Looking at a platform should show you key information - including what weapons are available.

The windows need work - allowing growth (mission editor doesn't allow this). Keeping the windows sizes so they open in the same aspect. Not being visible outside the program.

The AI (I think) needs a bit of tweaking. If I tell a unit to attack a unit with a weapon, the platform needs to adjust it's operating parameters in order to achieve that - not just fly continually over the area doing nothing (air units)...or telling a submarine to head in direction x - it should do it - regardless of whether the SoP's or whatever they are say Auto avoid threats...I shouldn't have to go somewhere else to turn that off before getting the unit to do what I want. Also - once it gets to where I have told it, perhaps it should revert - so I don't have to switch it back on. That particular setup may need some investigation - but I certainly feel like the AI fights me...and if I am over-ruling something, it should listen to me...I am the (bad) commander

In the meantime, I'm going to create a mission using the Custom Overlay to get a feel for the editor...then I'm going to go through the manual for key aspects.

I'm happier now than I was this morning when I was thinking about Harpoon:CE...I must've been looking through rose tinted glasses...but I am still to convince myself that this was worth £65 and that it is the all singing all dancing Harpoon successor...but my eyes are still open.

The manual and a decent mission may help.

Hi Judge.

You can find some tutorial vids here that might help take the edge off.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=26

Thanks!

Mike

[panzerde]

I need to chime in here and observe that I'm just not seeing the problems and issues that this thread is full of.  To me, information is very accessible.  Yes, as I indicated yesterday I think there are some minor UI problems like the OOB window not refreshing and windows not maintaining dimensions when I reopen them. However, I'm finding information readily and easily accessible.  I'm not at all having to hunt around; I seem to have what I need when I need it. 

Nor am I seeing performance issues and lag.  The system I'm running it on is a 2.67GHz i7 with 9GB of RAM, a pair of Nvidia 550Ti's, and the disk this is running from is a 5400 RPM 1 TB.  No SSD in the system.  Win7 64-bit.  This rig is a couple of years old now and while no slouch, is certainly not cutting edge, either.

My point here isn't to dispute or try and minimize JD and Nefaro's issues, just to indicate that YMMV.  It isn't that some of the issues raised don't exist, but rather that depending on your play style, approach to this game, and level of control you demand over individual units, some of these things might not be as bothersome or might not be issues at all to you.

[Grim.Reaper]

I need to chime in here and observe that I'm just not seeing the problems and issues that this thread is full of.  To me, information is very accessible.  Yes, as I indicated yesterday I think there are some minor UI problems like the OOB window not refreshing and windows not maintaining dimensions when I reopen them. However, I'm finding information readily and easily accessible.  I'm not at all having to hunt around; I seem to have what I need when I need it. 

Nor am I seeing performance issues and lag.  The system I'm running it on is a 2.67GHz i7 with 9GB of RAM, a pair of Nvidia 550Ti's, and the disk this is running from is a 5400 RPM 1 TB.  No SSD in the system.  Win7 64-bit.  This rig is a couple of years old now and while no slouch, is certainly not cutting edge, either.

My point here isn't to dispute or try and minimize JD and Nefaro's issues, just to indicate that YMMV.  It isn't that some of the issues raised don't exist, but rather that depending on your play style, approach to this game, and level of control you demand over individual units, some of these things might not be as bothersome or might not be issues at all to you.

So besides the ui and such, how is the actual gameplay?  Entertaining?  Is it engaging?  Is it easy to learn?