The "Uber" Command: Modern Air/Naval Ops Thread

[Yskonyn]

Dimitris, with respect, but that is just an open ended flamebait post. You should at least provide more reference to what the feature being pulled was (used for).
You are talking about an Operating System, not a game, so that could be a rather skewed comparison. You need to specifiy more.

[Zulu1966]

So let me get this straight. (I just want to make sure I understand your argument)

When you buy a new version of [ Windows / Office / Adobe suite / etc. ] and a feature previously available has been removed, it's OK because you bought a new SKU so you're getting exactly what you paid for at that point (even though you pay more money overall, since you already paid for the previous version).

Whereas if the same feature removal happens during an optional free update (which has enough changes to easily qualify as a new paid-for SKU if we wanted to do that), it's a mortal sin because it's offered as an update and not a new SKU.

Right?

Another laughable post from devs desperately trying to justify themselves. For the record  dimitris. Just so you don't use the same spurious argument again. Microsoft don't remove features people have paid for so they can sell them somewhere else to someone else for more money they do it for other reasons. So it's not the same thing as you have done at all. You are also not Microsoft and operate in a very small market where people's willingness to pay premium prices to support you are critical. It seems the dollars in all your eyes from the potential of a defence contract are blinding you both to where you have come from. How you got there. And where you may have to one day return.

Even Microsoft listened to their customers and returned something they removed even  though that was not for monetary gain. You guys seem more intent on coming here and being ignorant.

You still... after all these posts fail to fundamentally defend the moral of removing content from a game that people had previously paid for and are still advertising as a feature of the game on your website.

[mirth]

So let me get this straight. (I just want to make sure I understand your argument)

When you buy a new version of [ Windows / Office / Adobe suite / COD / FIFA / MSFS / etc. ] and a feature previously available has been removed, it's OK because you bought a new SKU so you're getting exactly what you paid for at that point (even though you pay more money overall, since you already paid for the previous version).

Whereas if the same feature removal happens during an optional free update (which has enough changes to easily qualify as a new paid-for SKU if we wanted to do that), it's a mortal sin because it's offered as an update and not a new SKU.

Right?

It may not be a mortal sin, but it may not be legal either.

Your argument about a new SKU is a strawman. If it warrrants new SKU, make it a new SKU and charge for it. On the one hand, you talk about making business decisions that are best for your company when removing existing feautres. On the other, you claim to be giving away free product that could easily qualify as a new paid-for SKU.

I, for one, do not plan to support a company that forces me to examine each update release to determine which existing features have been removed. At the same time, the devs act like they are doing me favor by removing features.

[mkivcs]

To be quite honest I've never noticed the replay feature even existed but that's partly because I only scraped the surface of the game so far, it looks such a great product that I've been saving it till I can devote the time to it that it deserves. That said I can understand peoples annoyance that a feature that they have had access to for a number of years suddenly being removed to justify a pricing structure that didn't even exist when they supported the project in it's early days.

However of more concern to me is the way the company are handling this. Since launch I have been hugely impressed by  Warfaresims/Dimitris commitment and willingness to engage with the users. (God knows it must be annoying to deal with the likes of H and the 'Why is this game not $1?' brigade on Steam.) Not to mention the continuing stream of fine updates.  This has really marked them out in my estimation as an AAA outfit and one who I look forward to purchasing future products from. However suddenly its as if the customer PR department has been outsourced to Battlefront and potential customers are marking it as a no buy. Presumably the more they sell the more chance we have of new versions  (And Warfaresims directors driving round in Porsches) so I think it would be in everyone's interest to learn from the mistakes made in this.

[RyanE]

To try and cut through some hyperbole on both sides of the issue...

As I said back at the beginning, if the devs had said they were removing the replay feature because it didn't keep up with the game from a technology standpoint because of the added games features, I would have been bummed but understanding.  But taking a feature away, regardless of how much good stuff you add, because you want to artificially prop up a the pro product is just like a used car salesman would do.  I fear this is some contractual obligation they have with the military customers.  This is very similar to HPS and POA2 where they released POA2 with certain features and then pulled those features away on the first release because the DoD told them to.  There was a crap storm about it and I have never bought another game from HPS since.  And POA still doesn't work, as much as some people want to say it does.  I really don't want Command to head down that same path.

And the sensitivity and reaction to criticism that the devs have shown has always been just below the surface of all of their responses in the past.  They are quick to anger, somewhat vindictive, and hold a grudge.  They built the whole game on those three principles.  They did a great job building it, but we are seeing their love of the game transform into their love of the military contract.

As to all the added and lost feature:

1) We paid a pretty high premium with the trust that the devs were continuing to add features.
2) The devs at some point should have charged for some of the big updates.
3) I am hoping we are not in a period of having to trade off existing features to get new features.
4) The lost feature isn't going away to a paid add-on, its now out of reach to gamers in  the pro edition...lost forever.

[chemkid]

@the warfaresims posse - great update and best wishes!

regarding the 'new pro feature' - i have a dream about paying pro-users who put their money into the development of a far, far more powerful version of the old 'free' recording feature and that someday warfaresims will split off a free version(somewhat less powerful but still better then the old feature, right?!) into the regular matrix/slitherine port of cmano!! yeah! that day will come and we all will be happy campers - till then, it's kinda 'vacation-time' for the free feature... let's take a break and enjoy this game as is!!

(...while the pros keep fine-tuning our 'free' features for days to come!!!)

cheers!
chem!

[Grim.Reaper]

Reallly?  Based on the developer's own comments you think features will return as a better free versions?

For a trival feature nobody should care if taken out, the company still lists it as a selling point on their product page.  If such a small thing, why important enough to list as selling feature?

Powerful, detailed 3D-globe (Google Earth-style) with multiple map layers
Intuitive, point-and-click user interface for beginners backed up by a vast array of hotkeys for power users
Customizable map and info windows with persisted display settings and full multiple-monitor support - spread your tactical display across multiple screens or devote your secondary monitors to info windows
Aircraft, surface ships, submarines, land units, strategic & space forces and all their real-life sensors, weapons and other systems are at your disposal
Extensive, detailed simulation databases modeling faithfully the capabilities & limitations of each unit
More then 40 included scenarios covering multiple historic and hypothetical conflicts, plus 140+ free downaloadable user-created scenarios spanning the globe
Integrated scenario editor - make and share your own battles or modify existing scenarios
Integrated database viewer - browse through the stats for every platform, sensor and weapon in the game
Tremendous flexibility of scale: From counter-piracy skirmishes to strategic nuclear war
Detailed modeling of air (including near-space) and naval operations, both surface and underwater, supported by high-quality physics, sensor/EW, terrain and weather, weapon and damage models
Focused modeling of land-based forces relevant to air/naval/space operations
Mine and mine-countermeasure operations
Nuclear operations and other special-weapon categories
Recorder & replay ability
PBEM-style multiplayer with the free "Joint Command" add-on by Baloogan
Reviews - From the Press

[mirth]

it's kinda 'vacation-time' for the free feature

It isn't a free feature. It is a feature bought and paid for with the rest of the game.

[Zulu1966]

I don't get the argument here or at matrix what it is they removed. That is pure semantics. It is irrelevant either from the Devs point of view or from their fanbois. They took something out of the game that people paid for to enable them to sell it to something else. I would like to have seen the reaction if say they had removed mid air refuelling. Simple fact is if you don't have an issue with what they have done now you can't do if they decided to do that in the future. Which of course leaves to one side the whole other argument that going forward it's obvious where their priorities lie.

[mirth]

It's an easy way to put a shine on the Pro Edition. Remove existing features from the commercial version and start touting them as exclusive to the PE.

[Grim.Reaper]

It will be interesting to see how steam community reacts to this.  The feature is still listed there as well.  Since by default steam auto updates games, lot of customers will auto see things disappear without a choice.  Of course developers will say somehow they should know this is coming and disable auto updates forever.  Messy...

[bostonmyk]

To try and cut through some hyperbole on both sides of the issue...

As I said back at the beginning, if the devs had said they were removing the replay feature because it didn't keep up with the game from a technology standpoint because of the added games features, I would have been bummed but understanding.  But taking a feature away, regardless of how much good stuff you add, because you want to artificially prop up a the pro product is just like a used car salesman would do.  I fear this is some contractual obligation they have with the military customers.  This is very similar to HPS and POA2 where they released POA2 with certain features and then pulled those features away on the first release because the DoD told them to.  There was a crap storm about it and I have never bought another game from HPS since.  And POA still doesn't work, as much as some people want to say it does.  I really don't want Command to head down that same path.

And the sensitivity and reaction to criticism that the devs have shown has always been just below the surface of all of their responses in the past.  They are quick to anger, somewhat vindictive, and hold a grudge.  They built the whole game on those three principles.  They did a great job building it, but we are seeing their love of the game transform into their love of the military contract.

As to all the added and lost feature:

1) We paid a pretty high premium with the trust that the devs were continuing to add features.
2) The devs at some point should have charged for some of the big updates.
3) I am hoping we are not in a period of having to trade off existing features to get new features.
4) The lost feature isn't going away to a paid add-on, its now out of reach to gamers in  the pro edition...lost forever.

1)Yes
2)Yes
3)No. We've added probably 10+ major features and probably 100's on minor things not including DB updates. So even if you don't trust us past history really doesn't support what you're saying.
4)True if you've used it.

You're very dramatic and spend lots of time writing what you think goes on or that you have some insight into our company and others that you really don't.  If you'd like some please feel free to ask questions etc. Will definitely answer as maybe having some more accurate info might help the angst.

Thanks

Mike

[bostonmyk]

It's an easy way to put a shine on the Pro Edition. Remove existing features from the commercial version and start touting them as exclusive to the PE.

Its more like figuring out what feature is more valuable to what product and I'd agree its about making sure Pro's buy the correct edition for them. Bottom line is I've never seen a bug report or post with a recording in it. We've even had it broken for a short period and nobody said a thing. What does that tell you?

Now that we've established both editions I don't see many more shifts if any.

Thanks

Mike

[bostonmyk]

It will be interesting to see how steam community reacts to this.  The feature is still listed there as well.  Since by default steam auto updates games, lot of customers will auto see things disappear without a choice.  Of course developers will say somehow they should know this is coming and disable auto updates forever.  Messy...

Its not in beta there. Right now you can only download the update in the Release Candidate string and manually run the executable to update.  Once we go live and push the final updates you'll see the change.

Thanks!

Mike

[Grim.Reaper]

It's an easy way to put a shine on the Pro Edition. Remove existing features from the commercial version and start touting them as exclusive to the PE.

Its more like figuring out what feature is more valuable to what product and I'd agree its about making sure Pro's buy the correct edition for them. Bottom line is I've never seen a bug report or post with a recording in it. We've even had it broken for a short period and nobody said a thing. What does that tell you?

Now that we've established both editions I don't see many more shifts if any.

Thanks

Mike

But you think important enough to list as selling point on your product purchase page?  And saying you don't see "many more" shifts does not exactly confirm nothing else will be removed.