Faux pas at The Wargamer?

[Nefaro]

unless the game is over 75 years old, someone owns the copyright
even then, it could've been renewed

+1

Just because someone wants the game and can no longer purchase it doesn't give them the right to steal it.

There is no legal status called "abandonware." It's called "theft."

I don't see an issue if nobody is selling,distributing, or even acknowledging any intent to do so with such old stuff.   

The only other option is placing a ban on acquiring it in any way since it's not sold or distro'd. I suppose that's why such things have been termed "abandonware".   

Whomever owns such things don't even bother thinking about them, much less whether a very few people still want to get them.   It's an unusual situation where a product already created long ago has an extremely small demand so nobody sells them.  What does the consumer do in such cases?  Just deny themselves the use of it despite being readily available and the owner not even bothering to worry about it (and probably never will)? 

I dunno.. it's a strange situation made more so by modern digital distribution.

I simply do not understand this logic. It makes no sense. You do not own it. It is not yours. It is none of your business what the owner does with it. He can sell it, he can trade it, he can sit on it, he can use it for himself, he can deny your right to use it, or he can choose to give it to you for free.

'He' has done none of the above, in many cases.   I'm pretty sure there is plenty abandonware floating about which has been denied use and as many or more cases where they haven't.    If they don't care what happens with it, then it's fair game.

I've not messed with abandonware much since those old things are often more nostalgia than substance.  But if it's been left by the side of the street without a care as to where it goes like someone's old furniture, not being sold, developed, or anything else then I'm not going to have some guilt trip downloading (or hauling it off) unless they tell us otherwise.  If I want it that bad, I'd buy it if they ended up selling it next week or a decade later anyway.  If they want our money they can ask for it anytime.   In fact, I wish more of them would do so.  GOG has obviously had success doing just that.

[Jarhead0331]

^There is simply no such thing as abandonware. This is a label that thieves have placed on a class of software in order to legitimize a crime. The law does not recognize abandonware. Now, if an IP owner chooses not defend his IP, that is his decision, but that does not mean that the act of taking that which is not yours is justified, or not criminal.

[LongBlade]

I understand the temptation to declare some games as "abandoned," but there is no legal or ethically justified way to call it anything other than stealing.

As Banzai Cat said, what you do on your own time on the internet is your business.

However, we will actively remove links posted here to "abandonware" sites. We realize you're bright enough to figure it out on your own. Just don't expect to find it supported here.

What the leadership of other websites does is their business.

[Swatter]

You can call me a criminal or a thief if it makes you feel better. You can argue all IP violations are equal, I disagree. You can call me more names if you wish, but insults generally don't change my opinion. I have broken many laws in my life, and so has everyone else reading these words. Are we all thieves and criminals? If some of you were to fall off your high horses, you might suffer significant injuries.

According to quantum theory, a cow can jump from the earth to the moon in one leap. The probability of that happening, though, is so small that the universe would cease to exist before it would be likely to occur.

I see this abandonware debate the same way. In theory, downloading an abandonware game could hurt someone, but the chance is so small that the universe would end before real harm could be done.

[Swatter]

BTW, Swatter, cool avatar. Loved that game, as well as Crusade in Europe, Conflict in Vietnam, and goodness help me, even NATO Commander. ;)

I happen to be coding my own version of Decision in the Desert. Ill send you a PM if I ever need a tester.

[Tinkershuffle]

The thing with abandonware is in many cases that even though someone may still own the rights of a particular game listed as "abandonware" the someone isn't selling the game anywhere. So the only way to get it is abandonware sites.

[MetalDog]

I think the definition of 'abandonware' is the issue.  According to the law, there is no such thing.  Therefore, if you should ever be found in possession of an IP that you got from an 'abandonware' site, you would be guilty of theft.

[ComradeP]

It is and has always been odd for people to imagine that downloading a game without paying for it, whilst it isn't supposed to be free, is more or less the same thing as going into a store and stealing it. However, as there's no physical action involved, people have difficulties with applying their usual ethical standards. Most people don't steal from stores, many of those people have at some point downloaded a movie or game in a way that's technically illegal.

It can be frustrating not to be able to play old games, I have experienced that many times. Legally, all you can do is hope they'll be "re-released" through something like GoG. Illegally, there's often a good chance that you'll find a website that has the file somewhere. People don't like not getting what they want, and if getting what they want is as simple as downloading a file, it can be easy to do so. Admittedly, many people are also simply not aware that it's illegal, either through ignorance of IP laws or because of terms that give their actions a coating of legitimacy, such as something being "abandonware." Due to that, theft is a lot more common than it was before the computer age, but official statistics tend to include only instances of physical theft.

[Nefaro]

We've given it more thought here than many of the old titles considered 'abandonware' get from their owners.  A sizable amount of those are simply gained in a large lot of old titles that just happened to come along with a couple that they actually wanted. 

I'm not going to beat myself up if the IP owner doesn't think some ancient title is worth a second thought or even bothering to put up on the net for sale.  Digital distribution has made it simple to do such things, compared to getting stuff into limited shelf space in the brick & mortars of yesterday.  Fortunately GOG has been around doing this for awhile so I've not had to bother picking up some antique DOS game second hand in a long time, since many good ones are being sold to satiate my nostalgic urges.

[MikeGER]

What if I owned a classic car from the 1960s, but just kept it in my garage and never drove it? Would you think its ok for someone to come into my home and steal it so that they could drive it? Of course not...but what is the difference between that and stealing someone's IP? Just because the IP may not be a tangible good, doesn't make its theft anymore legal or even ethical.   

the example is lacking: the classic car has a considerable value. and putting it in a garage is a way to keep it protected from the weather and other damage. ...a clears sign that the owner has an interest in this item.

(better think of your classic car, with missing wheels , beaten up by the elements for decades, sitting in the middle of nowhere in the Mojave dessert, left to rot on some public land between some local national park and a military proving ground...   ;D ) 

Now, just imagine -thought experiment- you take the NY subway and has a cellophane bag with unpeeled peanuts to eat from on the ride, then you get up and leave the waggon and the bag stays - as if you don't want it anymore on the seat- (like annoying people leave their garbage) A commuter who had sit next to you takes a peanut from the bag. Suddenly you return!
You had not left the train, you had just walked through the connecting door to the other waggon to say hello to a former coworker and now returned to your place... You see the commuter with your nut, call the police to get him filed for theft. And also get a civil law suit started with the value off a whole peanut farm. You claim, that you had planed to plant that very peanut, which surly grows into a nice strong plant, which generates more peanuts to harvest and to plant and in several years the single peanut would have filled 100 acre of your peanuts farm.... and that is the damage to compensate by the commuter!

what do you thing the jury and judge will do with that 'thoughtexperimental' case.

IMHO the copyright law has to be changed for modern digital wares:
Maybe turns software into public domain after 10 years, if the copyright is not renewed and the product is actively marketed and still get improved (for example: patches to keep it compatible with the latest OS and hardware, like widescreen and  HD-resolution or transformation to run on a mobile device is in work).
And if the item get stolen, the theft of the real market value is used in the law suit ....so like 5 cent or less, depending of the item.   

[Ian C]

I thought the management was through Slitherine now?

I was wondering why most of the regulars had moved over here now. The Wargamer isn't as lively or fun as it used to be. I had no idea it was being run by a games company.

[Jarhead0331]

You can call me a criminal or a thief if it makes you feel better. You can argue all IP violations are equal, I disagree. You can call me more names if you wish, but insults generally don't change my opinion. I have broken many laws in my life, and so has everyone else reading these words. Are we all thieves and criminals? If some of you were to fall off your high horses, you might suffer significant injuries.

According to quantum theory, a cow can jump from the earth to the moon in one leap. The probability of that happening, though, is so small that the universe would cease to exist before it would be likely to occur.

I see this abandonware debate the same way. In theory, downloading an abandonware game could hurt someone, but the chance is so small that the universe would end before real harm could be done.

Supporting and upholding the law, and making a personal decision not to break it is considered being on a "high horse" in your book? Interesting.  How have you been called names or personally insulted anywhere in this thread? The only person personally insulted here is me, with your ignorant jab at lawyers.

Taking something that does not belong to you is a crime. Committing this crime makes you a thief. It is not name calling, it is a fact of life. If you have made a personal decision that committing a criminal act is ok, that is your decision and it says a lot about you. But do not criticize others for doing the legally and ethically correct thing, even if doing so, "makes you feel better."

[Jarhead0331]

What if I owned a classic car from the 1960s, but just kept it in my garage and never drove it? Would you think its ok for someone to come into my home and steal it so that they could drive it? Of course not...but what is the difference between that and stealing someone's IP? Just because the IP may not be a tangible good, doesn't make its theft anymore legal or even ethical.   

the example is lacking: the classic car has a considerable value. and putting it in a garage is a way to keep it protected from the weather and other damage. ...a clears sign that the owner has an interest in this item.

(better think of your classic car, with missing wheels , beaten up by the elements for decades, sitting in the middle of nowhere in the Mojave dessert, left to rot on some public land between some local national park and a military proving ground...   ;D ) 

Now, just imagine -thought experiment- you take the NY subway and has a cellophane bag with unpeeled peanuts to eat from on the ride, then you get up and leave the waggon and the bag stays - as if you don't want it anymore on the seat- (like annoying people leave their garbage) A commuter who had sit next to you takes a peanut from the bag. Suddenly you return!
You had not left the train, you had just walked through the connecting door to the other waggon to say hello to a former coworker and now returned to your place... You see the commuter with your nut, call the police to get him filed for theft. And also get a civil law suit started with the value off a whole peanut farm. You claim, that you had planed to plant that very peanut, which surly grows into a nice strong plant, which generates more peanuts to harvest and to plant and in several years the single peanut would have filled 100 acre of your peanuts farm.... and that is the damage to compensate by the commuter!

what do you thing the jury and judge will do with that 'thoughtexperimental' case.

IMHO the copyright law has to be changed for modern digital wares:
Maybe turns software into public domain after 10 years, if the copyright is not renewed and the product is actively marketed and still get improved (for example: patches to keep it compatible with the latest OS and hardware, like widescreen and  HD-resolution or transformation to run on a mobile device is in work).
And if the item get stolen, the theft of the real market value is used in the law suit ....so like 5 cent or less, depending of the item.   

Mike, respectfully, my example is not lacking. Rather, your analysis of it is lacking. Your post starts off with a false presumption and then totally goes downhill from there. In your opinion a classic car has "considerable value" to its owner.  By implication, you are also stating the opinion that a dormant IP has no value to its owner. This is simply your subjective opinion and is actually not based upon market reality, or the law as related to property rights.  Quite simply, your opinion as to the value of someone else's property is completely irrelevant. It is still their property and they are free to exploit it, or not exploit it as they wish, without the fear of you taking it.  What's worse, your opinion is based upon the fact that the owner of the car physically protects it by placing it in a garage. I would suggest that an IP owner would do the same thing to protect its right to the IP if such a thing were physically possible. Unfortunately, it is much harder to physically protect something that is digital in nature. For these older games, there simply is no "garage." The problem is only compounded by people who take it upon themselves to illegally distribute and re-distribute the software over and over again.

Your subsequent example is legally incomprehensible and so far off base from any situation approaching reality that I'm not going to even bother distinguishing it from what we are discussing here.

Nice try though.

[Staggerwing]

Perhaps this discussion would be better held in the asbestos-lined forum?

The issue should be 'When should the law protect 'abandoned' software?' v. 'is there any rationale for taking IP away from someone who is not using it and either making it public domain or giving it to another entity who will make it available for public benefit?'. I think it's pretty obvious that we can't have every one running around stealing every one else's ideas and profiting from them. There is, however, the use of Imminent Domain to take something physical from one entity and give to another (or allow them to buy it if the owner objects). Can the same be applied to ideas, either chemicals (such as medications), designs (such as a better insulin pump or water-purification system), or software if the action can be deemed in the public good? I admit that it might be a stretch to say letting people download old games is for the public good but clever folks can probably find better examples of software benefitting the public.

We should not be arguing stealing v. fair use (a personal moral decision and one which folks will not be easily influenced on) but what legal approaches (as in amending existing law) would balance the interest of both IP holders and those who would wish to benefit from said IP.

A start could simply be requiring a company to maintain a list of it's IP items such as games where the public can see it so they know for certain if what they want to download is in public domain or someone else's' 'property'. Such a list could be part of a unified website that is open to all and also challengeable in case the ownership is in question.

[BanzaiCat]

http://www.abandonwarering.com/?Page=FAQ#1B

What abandonware is

The definition of abandonware
Abandonware is defined as any PC or console game that is:

• At least four years old
• Not being sold or supported by the company that produced it or by any other company. When a certain piece of Abandonware is later found to be sold or supported by a company, then it ceases to be Abandonware.
  

What is NOT abandonware
Software that is either:

• Less than four years old
  
• Still sold and/or supported by a company

Why abandonware is technically software piracy
According to U.S. Law and International Treaties, a copyright belongs to the author of a software product for 70 years beyond the life of the author or 95 years after the copyright date if the work is done by a corporation or anonymous source. Before that time expires, nobody (except the author) has the right to copy that piece of software.

(Emphasis mine)

Also: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/what-is-abandonware-and-is-it-legal/

So why is Abandonia still running? Like most laws, punishment only occurs if you get caught – and the other side is willing and able to make the charge stick. Most of the software listed on abandonware sites no longer have an owner, so no one can sue. In other cases the owner still exists but has decided not to enforce copyright. System Shock is currently owned by Electronic Arts, yet the original System Shock game can be found on many abandonware sites.

Another interesting point: http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature,7/section,23/

The issue of copyright is never in question; they don't stop you from copying for the sake of preventing piracy. (Profit is never an issue since the companies are definitely not making money from old games any more.) It's all about intellectual property -- the legal idea that anything a company or individual invents is owned by them, and that they have exclusive rights to control its use and availability. Software companies are just as worried about losing control of their creations as they are about losing profits.

Here's the key: You can lose your legal rights if you don't enforce them. So the IDSA continues to shut down sites because rampant copying virtually eliminates a company's ability to control the distribution of their intellectual property.

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