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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: DicedT on May 22, 2014, 08:02:38 PM

Title: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: DicedT on May 22, 2014, 08:02:38 PM
Panzer Corps. Tank Battle 1940-something. Panzer Tactics HD.

Is it my imagination, or are all these games just clones of Panzer General? Which I played to death in 1995 and enjoyed every minute of it. But I have no wish to go back to it over and over again.

Has wargaming become so sterile that multiple publishers are copying a 20-year-old game? Where is the clever design in just updating the graphics of a game that once ran on DOS?

Whenever someone mentions a new game, the first thing I look for is whether it sounds like Panzer General. In fact,  I would be grateful if people would mention in their subject line or first paragraph whether the game is a Panzer General clone.

Michael
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: bayonetbrant on May 22, 2014, 08:04:26 PM
Command: Modern Air/Naval Ops ;)
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Capn Darwin on May 22, 2014, 08:23:56 PM
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm comes to mind. No Panzer General there.  O0
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: panzerde on May 22, 2014, 08:34:52 PM
We'll know we're in trouble when someone releases Panzer General - World War Z.  :buck2:
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Staggerwing on May 22, 2014, 08:47:14 PM
Or Cthulu General.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Capn Darwin on May 22, 2014, 08:48:56 PM
Quote from: panzerde on May 22, 2014, 08:34:52 PM
We'll know we're in trouble when someone releases Panzer General - World War Z.  :buck2:

ooh! ooh! DIBS!!! :uglystupid2:
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Steelgrave on May 22, 2014, 09:49:29 PM
I'd buy the last two  ;D
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Pinetree on May 22, 2014, 10:23:41 PM
Quote from: panzerde on May 22, 2014, 08:34:52 PM
We'll know we're in trouble when someone releases Panzer General - World War Z.  :buck2:

At least no-one would moan about brain-dead AI...
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: GDS_Starfury on May 22, 2014, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: Capn Darwin on May 22, 2014, 08:48:56 PM
Quote from: panzerde on May 22, 2014, 08:34:52 PM
We'll know we're in trouble when someone releases Panzer General - World War Z.  :buck2:

ooh! ooh! DIBS!!! :uglystupid2:

actually I can see that as something that might be interesting but more in a Strategic Command wrapper.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: -budd- on May 22, 2014, 10:57:38 PM
command ops and flashpoint come to mind as not being PG clones.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: GDS_Starfury on May 22, 2014, 11:21:39 PM
and I'm still holding out for Road to Moscow.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: skeptical.platypus on May 23, 2014, 01:57:00 AM
Quote from: Capn Darwin on May 22, 2014, 08:48:56 PM
Quote from: panzerde on May 22, 2014, 08:34:52 PM
We'll know we're in trouble when someone releases Panzer General - World War Z.  :buck2:

ooh! ooh! DIBS!!! :uglystupid2:

I believe you do have some free time on your plate after canceling Fleshpoint Campaigns.

And yes, I'm still chagrined. It sounded awesome.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: skeptical.platypus on May 23, 2014, 02:02:00 AM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on May 22, 2014, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: Capn Darwin on May 22, 2014, 08:48:56 PM
Quote from: panzerde on May 22, 2014, 08:34:52 PM
We'll know we're in trouble when someone releases Panzer General - World War Z.  :buck2:

ooh! ooh! DIBS!!! :uglystupid2:

actually I can see that as something that might be interesting but more in a Strategic Command wrapper.

I don't think this is exactly what you are thinking of, but I would be very interested in playing a national command  / strategic game fighting to save civilization and its valuable women bacon women and bacon against a growing zombie apocalypse.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Capn Darwin on May 23, 2014, 05:49:56 AM
Why not rebrand to Fleshpoint Campaigns: Zed Storm. Zombies and tanks. How could we not make millions.  :2funny:
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: JasonPratt on May 23, 2014, 07:51:39 AM
Many non-PG clones at Matrix. (And a few that are. Including an outright port and update of the original PG with expansions. But still, tons that aren't.)
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: TacticalWargames on May 23, 2014, 08:20:16 AM
Hehe..these days it's getting a rare thing:)
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Sir Slash on May 23, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
If you want Strategic, I've gotten hooked on the Decisive Campaigns WtP. It's a monster however, sometimes the war itself took less time to fight. But the AI is excellent and it never plays the same way twice.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Tuna on May 23, 2014, 08:43:20 AM
Quote from: Sir Slash on May 23, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
If you want Strategic, I've gotten hooked on the Decisive Campaigns WtP. It's a monster however, sometimes the war itself took less time to fight. But the AI is excellent and it never plays the same way twice.

Great game, but the one thing that I hated, was that all units were 'equal'.. did anyone ever mod this or was it ever updated to have some differences in the divisions?
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: MengJiao on May 23, 2014, 09:16:25 AM
Quote from: DicedT on May 22, 2014, 08:02:38 PM
Panzer Corps. Tank Battle 1940-something. Panzer Tactics HD.

Is it my imagination, or are all these games just clones of Panzer General? Which I played to death in 1995 and enjoyed every minute of it. But I have no wish to go back to it over and over again.

  I never played Panzer General and I haven't had much trouble avoiding its clones -- which do seem to be all over, but they are pretty easy to spot.  I've always played all kinds of HPS (for example Panzer Campaigns -- not like Panzer general at all) and plane and sub simulators and what not.  Boardgames too.  AGEOD stuff. etc.  It's really pretty easy to avoid Panzer General Clones.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Johnnie on May 23, 2014, 10:32:15 AM
This thread can not continue without the following "but."  There may be many clones but one must admit that the original Panzer General is one of the best wargames, for my money, THE best wargame, to date.

If you are going to clone something . . .  .
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Rayfer on May 23, 2014, 03:15:31 PM
Quote from: Johnnie on May 23, 2014, 10:32:15 AM
This thread can not continue without the following "but."  There may be many clones but one must admit that the original Panzer General is one of the best wargames, for my money, THE best wargame, to date.

If you are going to clone something . . .  .

Well, to be honest, I wouldn't admit to any such thing.  Never liked the original and haven't been motivated at all to try the new releases. Just my subjective opinion. I realize it is, to many, a beloved series.  Clones of successful games is common in this industry. Just look at the Diablo series. I'd take the Decisive Campaigns and the Command Ops series over PG every time.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: TacticalWargames on May 24, 2014, 05:21:19 AM
One mans meat is another mans poison. The game did nothing for at all. To Chess like and not keen on rock paper scissors mechanics..nor abstract scale.


Quote from: Johnnie on May 23, 2014, 10:32:15 AM
This thread can not continue without the following "but."  There may be many clones but one must admit that the original Panzer General is one of the best wargames, for my money, THE best wargame, to date.

If you are going to clone something . . .  .
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Nefaro on May 24, 2014, 07:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tuna on May 23, 2014, 08:43:20 AM
Quote from: Sir Slash on May 23, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
If you want Strategic, I've gotten hooked on the Decisive Campaigns WtP. It's a monster however, sometimes the war itself took less time to fight. But the AI is excellent and it never plays the same way twice.

Great game, but the one thing that I hated, was that all units were 'equal'.. did anyone ever mod this or was it ever updated to have some differences in the divisions?

Are you one of those people who require special separate colors and ridiculously superhuman stats for SS units?  :2funny:
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Tuna on May 25, 2014, 08:57:40 AM
Quote from: Nefaro on May 24, 2014, 07:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tuna on May 23, 2014, 08:43:20 AM
Quote from: Sir Slash on May 23, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
If you want Strategic, I've gotten hooked on the Decisive Campaigns WtP. It's a monster however, sometimes the war itself took less time to fight. But the AI is excellent and it never plays the same way twice.

Great game, but the one thing that I hated, was that all units were 'equal'.. did anyone ever mod this or was it ever updated to have some differences in the divisions?

Are you one of those people who require special separate colors and ridiculously superhuman stats for SS units?  :2funny:

No, I like to play all sides.. I just thought it was very unrealistic that every division had the exact same number of men, tanks, guns.. etc... Not very realistic..
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: jomni on May 25, 2014, 08:02:32 PM
But a PG unit is not really a division. Scale is abstract (unit size, hex distance, turn time) . It is not about number of equipment squads but % of full strength TOE.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Nefaro on May 25, 2014, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: jomni on May 25, 2014, 08:02:32 PM
But a PG unit is not really a division. It is abstract. It is not about number of equipment squads but % of full strength TOE.

That's how the Decisive Campaigns stuff is.  While the base strength numbers are pretty uniform, there are multiple other unit-specific values that further modify it's current strength, morale, supply etc.  It's not just about the base equipment numbers, which is probably a misperception left over from (overly) simple hex & counter strength value habits.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: jomni on May 25, 2014, 08:15:25 PM
But the PG model is strictly strength points (number of hits a unit can take).
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: Nefaro on May 26, 2014, 01:57:54 PM
Quote from: jomni on May 25, 2014, 08:15:25 PM
But the PG model is strictly strength points (number of hits a unit can take).

Indeed.
Title: Re: Are there any wargames that are not Panzer General?
Post by: DicedT on May 26, 2014, 11:50:41 PM
One more to the list: Order of Battle Pacific. See screenshot: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3488994

Michael