Hey
I just wanted to ask about the US National Guard.
Now as far as I know, the National Guard is present in every state. I always thought it was state run - but the name kind of suggests it's a federal institution ran by the Whitehouse...so which is it?
What is the scale of the National Guard? It seems to me it's another "army"...what's the mobilisation numbers for it.
Also - is the US reliant on the NG for outside US incidents or is it for home guard only? I ask because with cuts to conventional forces in the UK over the last couple of decades, the UK forces are relying more and more on the Territorial Army (the UK National Guard I guess) for overseas combat operations.
What is your National Guard like? Is it very professional? How often do they meet to train?
Ta.
The National Guard belongs to the states. It answers to the state governors, and the oath of enlistment even specifically says "uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of ____"
They may be called into federal service for federal missions, such as WWII or being deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan, or chasing Pancho Villa around Mexico.
But they belong to the governor, and (s)he doesn't have to ask permission to use them for hurricane relief, firefighting, or quelling riots in Ferguson, MO.
They are organized, equipped, and trained on the same lines as the regular army, so as to better integrate them when they called up.
They have training 1 weekend/month, with a 2 week training period once/year, usually in the summer as a good number of lower ranks will be college kids who are using the extra money for school or taking advantage of tuition benefits.
One big distinction between the National Guard and the Army Reserve is the way in which they are mobilized. If you belong to the Army Reserve, you belong to the federal government, and they can mobilize you, without bringing 50 of your closest friends with you. There are limits to how often you can be called up, but the feds don't have to "ask".
Technically, when a National Guard unit gets mobilized, they are mobilizing the entire unit. They can't pick CPT Guillory out of the crowd and say "we want him"; they have to say "Hey, South Carolina, we need a detachment of 20 soldiers with the following qualifications: ________"
There's a LOT more to it than that, but that's the short version. I can give you a longer one later when I've got more time to type :)
Thanks bayonetbrant
.
A recent example: Gov Perry of Texas called up the Texas National Guard
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/14/first-national-guard-troops-arrive-at-texas-mexico-border/
There are also State Guard units, like the New York Guard, which JH and I are members of. The NY Guard is made up of volunteers who only get paid upon deployment, cannot be deployed outside NY, and are called up by the Governor. Missions of the NY Guard include search and rescue, HAZMAT duty, and mission security, among some others. The NY Guard also has members who are sometimes integrated with National Guard and regular US Army for specific missions.
Yep, those guys are like the State Military Reserve in California (affectionately known as the Smurfs) that are a state-specific force that can only be used by the Governor and are not subject to any federal mobilization. The flip side is that they are not due any federal benefits like life insurance, exchange priviledges, or retirement/pensions.
It's no wonder you buggers want to keep your weapons...having such a large armed force ready at your governors disposal as and when he wishes!
Incorrect assumption, sir. Buggery and guns most certainly do not mix.
Well...guess it depends on whom you ask. But in general...no.
:2funny:
I don't know why the TNG was deployed to the border, except to quiet down people that demand more be done to stem the tide of illegals. The whole "deter and refer" mission is a BS waste of taxpayer dollars since they're just going to sit there and watch and do nothing. The Border Patrol isn't going to do anything, either. They tend to get in trouble when they do their jobs.
http://twitchy.com/2014/07/15/like-their-job-huffpo-reporter-doesnt-seem-to-understand-what-the-border-patrol-is-for/
So members of your national guard gets paid ? Interesting
Is it a fixed monthly wage or only when your on duty ?
Quote from: jejo68 on September 03, 2014, 01:46:37 PM
So members of your national guard gets paid ? Interesting
Is it a fixed monthly wage or only when your on duty ?
Whenever you report for duty you're on payroll, prorated at the same rate you'd get for your grade/time in service as if you were active duty, for those periods when you are present at weekend drills. If you don't show up some weekend b/c you made other arrangements, or just blew it off (it happens, and yes, you get in trouble) then you don't get paid. You can make up the time elsewhere, but you get paid when you're present and doing the work the you need to do, not just b/c the calendar rolled over to a new month.
Keep in mind I'm talking about the Army/Air National Guard. There is no "national guard" equivalent for the Marines/Navy, and the state militia, like the CA SMR or the NY Guard like JH/Gus, are handled completely within the rules of their specific state.
Can the president call them up?
And can he over ride a govenors decision
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 03, 2014, 02:09:10 PMCan the president call them up?
Depends on who you mean by "them"
He can federalize the Army/Air National Guard.
He cannot call up the SMR / NY Guard / etc. Those belong exclusively to the states.
One way 'cheating' way to tell whether or not they can be called into federal service is to look at the uniform. Over the left chest, if the tape says "US Army" or "US Air Force" then you can be called into federal service. If it says "California" or "South Carolina" then you can't.
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 03, 2014, 02:09:10 PMAnd can he over ride a govenors decision
He has -zero-legal authority over anyone not obligated to the feds (see above). There are some limited legal conditions under which he can mobilize the Army/Air National Guard without the governor's approval, but those are mainly during declared states of war, and require (literally) acts of Congress to authorize. As a practical matter, you're not going to have a governor tell the President to piss off if he needs to mobilize a National Guard unit, even if it's a collosally bad idea, like mobilizing most of NC / SC / GA simultaneously to prep for Iraq/Afghanistan deployments, and start their pre-mob training in Indiana... right as hurricane season is kicking off. That was just dumb
2
So the national guard units have a loyalty to the state governor and not the president?
There's a very long, and very convoluted history, of how the National Guard integrates into the heirarchy in the US.
That said, the Constitution only calls for the establishment of 2 things: the Navy, and the National Guard. All the rest of those bastards are optional ;)
Lol
Totally intrigued - didn't know any of this stuff
Come to Origins next year, buy me a beer, and I'll tell you all about it. Typing it all out just makes my hands hurt. And my head. You don't even want to get into states where the senior military officer in the National Guard is a state-wide elected official...
so in laymans terms/limeys terms ( :P) the people can vote for the commander of a governors personal army who have no loyalty to the President?
It does sound like a potential hotbed...loyalties, political views etc...hence my statement about you lot wanting to keep your firearms!
im trying to think of a circumstance where all that goes wrong and theres a march on Washington
Kind of sounds feasible, doesn't it?
Since when was our current President concerned about Acts of Congress?
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on September 03, 2014, 04:25:59 PM
Since when was our current President concerned about Acts of Congress?
Since when was any?
Fair point...
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 03, 2014, 04:03:08 PM
im trying to think of a circumstance where all that goes wrong and theres a march on Washington
that kinda happened after WW1.
^Bonus Expeditionary Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army).
It serves as a jumping-off point for William Manchester's book the Glory and the Dream (http://www.amazon.com/Glory-Dream-Narrative-History-1932-1972/dp/0316544965/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409797500&sr=1-9).
i did not know that, thanks for the links
Yeah, but that post-WWI march on Washington wasn't some state governor sending the National Guard. Those were regulars.
Also, just to clarify something from further upstream. The National Guard are organized, trainwd , and equipped just like the regular army (though they can be a few years behind on new eqpt roll outs). They don't bring their own weapons to drill; they are issued at the unit just like a regular unit, and keep them stored in an arms room.
State Guard units, like the one Gus and I belong to, are direct decendents of colonial militia that fought in the Refolutionary War. My brigade, the 88th, traces it's lineage to the Fighting Irish, which saw significant combat throughout the Civil War, including at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg. Elements of the 88th NYS Volunteers were at Appomatox Courthouse when General Lee surrendered. It also saw service during WWI and WWII.
Most importantly, Gus is a Private, and I am a Captain. >:D
Would be interesting to read more about both subjects (or discuss it further). I knew state militias existed but other than that have no idea how they work, at least until I read this thread.
@JH - yessir.
My brigade is the 56th. It was originally formed in 1917 to protect the water supply and actually suffered some serious casualties in 1918 from the flu epidemic.
Quote from: Gusington on September 04, 2014, 07:09:27 AM
@JH - yessir.
My brigade is the 56th. It was originally formed in 1917 to protect the water supply and actually suffered some serious casualties in 1918 from the flu epidemic.
Gus - shut the hell up and get back in line :D
Quote from: Gusington on September 04, 2014, 07:09:27 AM
@JH - yessir.
My brigade is the 56th. It was originally formed in 1917 to protect the water supply and actually suffered some serious casualties in 1918 from the flu epidemic.
what from
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 04, 2014, 07:25:48 AM
Quote from: Gusington on September 04, 2014, 07:09:27 AM
@JH - yessir.
My brigade is the 56th. It was originally formed in 1917 to protect the water supply and actually suffered some serious casualties in 1918 from the flu epidemic.
what from
Why, the dastardly dirty Hun infiltrator, sir!
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 03, 2014, 03:25:11 PM
So the national guard units have a loyalty to the state governor and not the president?
Another interesting case of State/Local control of the National Guard was during the Eisenhour Administration and the desegration of schools in Little Rock, Arkansas.
From Wikipedia: "In 1957, the state of Arkansas refused to honor a federal court order to integrate their public school system stemming from the Brown decision. Eisenhower demanded that Arkansas governor Orval Faubus obey the court order. When Faubus balked, the president placed the Arkansas National Guard under federal control and sent in the 101st Airborne Division. They escorted and protected nine black students' entry to Little Rock Central High School, an all-white public school, for the first time since the Reconstruction era. Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote to Eisenhower to thank him for his actions, writing "The overwhelming majority of southerners, Negro and white, stand firmly behind your resolute action to restore law and order in Little Rock"
This is one of the clearest examples of the command structure of the US National Guard.
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 04, 2014, 07:25:48 AM
Quote from: Gusington on September 04, 2014, 07:09:27 AM
@JH - yessir.
My brigade is the 56th. It was originally formed in 1917 to protect the water supply and actually suffered some serious casualties in 1918 from the flu epidemic.
what from
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_ldges1gwVO1qzoa9f.jpg&hash=d4e88cb663894062d1006bdb57accc9a37d19d72)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 03, 2014, 03:41:11 PM
Come to Origins next year, buy me a beer, and I'll tell you all about it. Typing it all out just makes my hands hurt. And my head. You don't even want to get into states where the senior military officer in the National Guard is a state-wide elected official...
:o
Y'all and yer elections!! ::)
Indeed - Hun saboteurs. Of which there were none. But there was flu...
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 03, 2014, 03:59:50 PM
so in laymans terms/limeys terms ( :P) the people can vote for the commander of a governors personal army who have no loyalty to the President?
Our government (used to be) based on checks and balances.
And popularity contests! ;) :P
Quote from: airboy on September 04, 2014, 08:00:51 AM
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 03, 2014, 03:25:11 PM
So the national guard units have a loyalty to the state governor and not the president?
Another interesting case of State/Local control of the National Guard was during the Eisenhour Administration and the desegration of schools in Little Rock, Arkansas.
From Wikipedia: "In 1957, the state of Arkansas refused to honor a federal court order to integrate their public school system stemming from the Brown decision. Eisenhower demanded that Arkansas governor Orval Faubus obey the court order. When Faubus balked, the president placed the Arkansas National Guard under federal control and sent in the 101st Airborne Division. They escorted and protected nine black students' entry to Little Rock Central High School, an all-white public school, for the first time since the Reconstruction era. Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote to Eisenhower to thank him for his actions, writing "The overwhelming majority of southerners, Negro and white, stand firmly behind your resolute action to restore law and order in Little Rock"
This is one of the clearest examples of the command structure of the US National Guard.
Interestingly, today is the anniversary of that action
https://www.facebook.com/amightygirl/photos/a.360833590619627.72897.316489315054055/730743913628591/
QuoteOn this day in 1957, 15-year-old Elizabeth Eckford encountered an angry mob when she attempted to enter Little Rock Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas. Eckford was one of nine teenagers, known as the Little Rock Nine, who became the first African American students to attend the previously all-white Little Rock Central High School after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled school segregation unconstitutional in its famous Brown v. Board of Education decision.
While the nine students had planned to enter the school together, the meeting place was changed the night before and Eckford, whose family did not have a telephone, did not learn about the change of plans. As a result, she attempted to enter the school alone through a mob of 400 angry segregationists and a blockage by the Arkansas National Guard, which the pro-segregationist governor, Orval Faubus, had ordered to block the students in violation of the Supreme Court decision.
Due to the line of soldiers blockading the school and threats from the crowd, Eckford was forced to flee to a bus stop. As she sat at the bus stop crying, New York Times reporter Benjamin Fine consoled the scared girl, telling her "don't let them see you cry." Civil rights activist Grace Lorch, who had learned that Eckford had arrived separately from the other students, then arrived to escort her home.
In response to Eckford and the other students being blocked from the school, Little Rock Mayor Woodrow Wilson Mann asked President Eisenhower to send federal troops to protect the students. To enforce desegregation, Eisenhower sent the US Army's 101st Airborne Division to Little Rock and federalized the entire Arkansas National Guard to remove control from the governor. The Little Rock Nine were able to start school by the end of September. Although soldiers were deployed at the school for the entire year, many of the students experienced physical and verbal abuse, including Eckford who at one point was pushed down the stairs.
The governor continued to fight integration and, the following year -- in what came to be known as the "Lost Year" -- ordered Little Rock's four high schools closed rather than allow it to continue. As a result, Eckford did not graduate from Central High but took correspondence courses to complete her degree. Eckford and the rest of the Little Rock Nine were awarded the Spingarn Medal by the NAACP and she later received a BA in history at Central State University in Wilberforce, Ohio.
The famous photograph pictured here shows Elizabeth Eckford on September 4, 1957 as she walked alone through a mob to Central High. Taken by Will Counts, it was a runner-up for the Pulitzer Prize for Photography. The young woman shouting in the photo, Hazel Massery, apologized to Eckford and the two made amends at a 40th anniversary celebration of the school's integration.
The story of Eckford and Massery is also told in the fascinating book for adult readers "Elizabeth and Hazel: Two Women of Little Rock" (http://amzn.to/1r9xsOS).
For an excellent autobiography by another member of the Little Rock Nine, Melba Pattillo Beals, for ages 12 and up, we highly recommend "Warriors Don't Cry: A Searing Memoir of the Battle to Integrate Little Rock's Central High" at http://www.amightygirl.com/warriors-don-t-cry
For a compelling fictional account of the tumultuous school integration of 1950s Little Rock for readers 10 to 13, check out "Lions of Little Rock" at http://www.amightygirl.com/the-lions-of-little-rock
Daisy Bates, the organizer of the Little Rock Nine group, has also written a memoir "The Long Shadow of Little Rock: A Memoir" for ages 13 and up at http://www.amightygirl.com/the-long-shadow-of-little-rock
Nobel Prize-winning author Toni Morrison has also written an excellent account of the movement for desegregation. Filled with stirring stories and archival photographs, "Remember: The Journey to School Integration" is highly recommended for ages 8 to 14 at http://www.amightygirl.com/remember-the-journey-to-school-integration
For several books and a film about Ruby Bridges, the first African American child to desegregate an all-white elementary school in the US South, visit http://www.amightygirl.com/character-collection/historical-characters-2?cat=644