This is the next installment of the series, and quite frankly after reading the blog posts below, I am blown away by where the game seems to be going. It is aiming to be a realistic command game without getting bogged down in unnecessary micro management (WitE) or sitting watching the paint dry (CmdOps), though that really does not touch the brilliance the developer is discussing here. I really hope he pulls it off; it would be truly ground breaking in wargaming. Open for beta late this year?
Post 1: Introduction (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=679)
Post 2: Why the heck won't my Panzer's Move? (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=686)
Post 3: Let's Talk Tires (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=699)
Post 4: Russia on Ten Barrels a Day (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=721)
Post 5: How to make Logistics Fun (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=798)
Post 6: Information Flow - A Torrent or a Trickle (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=805)
Post 7: Trucking our way to an Early Retirement (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=813)
I'd had lost sight of this one, which is funny given I just posted elsewhere singing the praises of DC Warsaw to Paris and Case Blue, easily two of the best WW2 operational-scope games I've ever played.
After being pretty bitterly disappointed in WitE, I don't want to get my hopes up too much for this, but if DC3 winds up on par with its predecessors, it will be an outstanding game. I am definitely disappointed by the decision -- although I understand why it was made -- to have divisional counters rather than the regiment-level counters in WtP and Case Blue. Part of what I love so much about those games is the tactical flexibility the regimental scope gives you. Division-sized maneuver units hews very close to the WitE model, which is worrisome to me. Still, I'm optimistic for this one. Looking very good indeed.
DC3 came out of the blue for me, was not aware at all. Like you I became disillusioned with WitE though I played the crap out of it before I reached that point.
I am glad for the Division sized units; it fits more with the Command intent, and to be honest I am tired of pushing around several hundred or a thousand units. A few hundred seems much more manageable. The scale of DC3 will be 30kms a hex so about double what WitE is, and with 4 days turns there will be lots of opportunity for interaction and decision making I think.
I am quite hopeful also. Vic has shown us with WtP and Case Blue, while Cameron made the awesome Officer mod for ATG. The talent is there, just need to bring it all together and still resemble Barbarossa. :)
There's a lot of talk about the importance of decisions and minimizing micromanagement, yet Cameron still states that there are "hundreds of units" and "nothing would happen without a human player". Interesting to see how it turns out.
Trying to do the Eastern Front in WWII at the division scale has no appeal to me. Pushing around hundreds of units simply is not my idea of fun. I think the gameplay itself in WiTE is superb, but I simply cannot move myself to push around hundreds of counters each turn. I tried hard to play WiTE, but controlling such huge forces is draining in the extreme. Just controlling the Soviet reinforcement pipeline in Barbarossa was extremely challenging. I think WiTE is more of a staff officer simulation than a game.
Doing this topic on the division scale is going to limit the audience straight away to the hardcore of the hardcore. I don't know why game developers are so obsessed about doing games about the Eastern Front in division scale when corps scale games have worked so well in the past. I don't mind attaching division to corps and having corps the maneuver unit, but division scale is a giant pain in the butt. At least to me.
Like Zonso, I'm really intrigued by what's been in the recent blog posts. The idea of the staff summaries and making decisions based on them is very appealing.
I do get (and agree with) the drudgery of moving hundreds of counters. What would be great would be a system more like CO where the commander can issue orders to formations and have the constituent units intelligently execute the plan. If you need tactical flexibility, you can detach a sub-unit and control it directly. I don't think this is where DC3 is going, but I think it's pretty key to making something like this accessible to more than the hardcore of the hardcore, as Swatter points out.
Wish he had gone down in scale rather than up..Not a fan of Division scale wargames..I prefer either Tactical upto grand tactical. I'd love to have seen a battalion scale game set on the east front.
Sweet fancy...wow.
Well, it's a day-one purchase for me, just because of my love for the other two, but, wow...
There's a lifestyle choice for you...
Good Luck, Cameron...you'll need it.
Between the hex-nut-counters that will demand to know your TO&E sources to those who don't like having to move all those bloody pieces, there's a happy middle out there somewhere, but it'll take some finding.
It's like when people tell me that I should really LOVE the boardgame "Case Blue". There's an aesthetic grandeur to it, but, ain't no playing it for me...at least until retirement.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
I like how they try to present the reports as real staff reports instead of just traditional lifeless on-screen tables.
I haven't read all the blog posts - but does the game cover the whole war or is it just Barbarossa to the end of some other point ?
Time Period is '41 and early '42 (the initial drive to the Gates of Moscow and the winter counter attack)
source: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3621668
cheers!
Quote from: chemkid on September 21, 2014, 07:47:01 AM
Time Period is '41 and early '42 (the initial drive to the Gates of Moscow and the winter counter attack)
source: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3621668
cheers!
Oh...My interest level just dropped.
Quote from: Cyrano on September 20, 2014, 06:42:01 PM
Sweet fancy...wow.
Well, it's a day-one purchase for me, just because of my love for the other two, but, wow...
There's a lifestyle choice for you...
Good Luck, Cameron...you'll need it.
Between the hex-nut-counters that will demand to know your TO&E sources to those who don't like having to move all those bloody pieces, there's a happy middle out there somewhere, but it'll take some finding.
It's like when people tell me that I should really LOVE the boardgame "Case Blue". There's an aesthetic grandeur to it, but, ain't no playing it for me...at least until retirement.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
Yes too true, previously a mark of wargaming 'grognards', but universal now in gaming it seems. You simply will not please all of the people, and unfortunately in this era of easy internet media, it is the naysayers who are the loudest and most vocal. Realistically if you are a satisfied customer you likely will be playing the game and not panning it I would think.
Anyways I believe Cameron said the German would have about 200 counters to play with, pretty reasonable I think for an East Front game. With this engine the player will still be 'pushing counters'. However it is the context and backstory of command that the developer is designing that excites me. I really do hope he can balance it all with enough tension without going off the rails.
It also doesn't bother me that the game only goes to early '42. My impressions following WitE is that is likely when most games ended then anyways with only a small number carrying through the campaign.
new blog post up... http://www.vrdesigns.nl/?p=827
And the best one yet, IMHO. Really liking how this is shaping up. The amount of counters seems reasonable particularly when combined with the theatre approach. The focus on Armies and the level of real operational focus here is sounding great.
All the posts show the axis side. Wonder how the Soviet side is in terms of decisions and immersion.
After reading the blog I have to say I'm impressed..this looks like it will ooze immersion. Also a very good engine for a WW1 game.
Quote from: TacticalWargames on September 23, 2014, 02:17:50 AM
After reading the blog I have to say I'm impressed..this looks like it will ooze immersion. Also a very good engine for a WW1 game.
TW....I've played the first two Decisive Campaign games but never thought to consider it as an engine for a WWI game. You're right, it would be!
Quote from: jomni on September 22, 2014, 10:12:58 PM
All the posts show the axis side. Wonder how the Soviet side is in terms of decisions and immersion.
I always play Soviets and I've found that they are always under-tested and so forth so you get to do some stunning stuff since no one has ever actually play-tested most Soviet options.
I'm sure I'll get this when it comes out.
Quote from: Rayfer on September 23, 2014, 10:01:33 AM
Quote from: TacticalWargames on September 23, 2014, 02:17:50 AM
After reading the blog I have to say I'm impressed..this looks like it will ooze immersion. Also a very good engine for a WW1 game.
TW....I've played the first two Decisive Campaign games but never thought to consider it as an engine for a WWI game. You're right, it would be!
Take a look at this:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3684595
DC: WW I :o O0
Holy cow that is impressive ! :o
Very much hope this mod sees the light of day. Only wish he was building it around the (much faster) DC2 engine than DC1...
Quote from: sandman2575 on September 24, 2014, 11:11:09 AM
Holy cow that is impressive ! :o
Very much hope this mod sees the light of day. Only wish he was building it around the (much faster) DC2 engine than DC1...
Yeah but then he'd have to recreate the map etc....
But isn't there a DC2 variant of the Case White scenario?
Is there? I hadn't heard of that.... ???
Pretty sure Vic included a DC2 version of Case White in DC Warsaw to Paris at some point. I think you can only play it as a single scenario, not as part of the 'full campaign' (since Case Yellow was not updated with the new engine as far as I know).
Quote from: Barthheart on September 24, 2014, 10:51:30 AM
Quote from: Rayfer on September 23, 2014, 10:01:33 AM
Quote from: TacticalWargames on September 23, 2014, 02:17:50 AM
After reading the blog I have to say I'm impressed..this looks like it will ooze immersion. Also a very good engine for a WW1 game.
TW....I've played the first two Decisive Campaign games but never thought to consider it as an engine for a WWI game. You're right, it would be!
Take a look at this:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3684595
DC: WW I :o O0
That's looks really good. He's done a lot of work.