Shadow of Mordor got me thinking about this, and I'd be curious to hear what other Grogs think –
I'm sure I'm not the only here who fondly remembers playing this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Middle_Earth_%281988_video_game%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Middle_Earth_%281988_video_game%29)
Or fondly remembers watching this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT18OJEPU9Q&list=PLfARYW-0sV-o0BvlSmjOtStxs26xzS3rX (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT18OJEPU9Q&list=PLfARYW-0sV-o0BvlSmjOtStxs26xzS3rX)
I wonder if future Tolkien-based games will ever get beyond the "Peter Jackson-ification" of the Tolkien universe. Looking at Shadow of Mordor – yes, it sure looks spectacular, and looks like fun. But it also looks like the lovechild of Jackson's LOTR movies and Assassin's Creed. Admittedly, I haven't played it, but from what I've seen, it doesn't look or feel very Tolkien-esque to me.
It's not surprising that Tolkien video games have all taken their cue from the Peter Jackson LOTR and The Hobbit movies. The movies themselves look like video games, at least in the battle scenes. But I hope someday, some game developer will come along and say, "The Peter Jackson view of Tolkien is not the only view," and dare to do something completely different – and I would argue, something closer to the true spirit of Tolkien's books, which are by no means the frantic, ostentatious orgies of elaborately choreographed violence that one sees in Jackson's movies. (I say all this, by the way, as someone who enjoyed the LOTR movies, especially the first one. But I'm starting to resent how powerful a grip they now have on the Tolkien franchise.)
The thing that's so striking to me, looking at Shadow of Mordor, is the idea that the Tolkien hero is an unstoppable killing machine. This is absolutely part of Jackson's legacy. His movies depict Aragorn and Legolas etc. as essentially invulnerable, blade-and-bow-wielding super ninjas in medieval garb. The real template here, I think, is The Matrix's Neo, not Tolkien, by a long shot.
Anyway, my point is *not* to wag a finger at Shadow of Mordor and say "bad, bad, bad!" It's just me thinking out loud – will future Tolkien games break this mold, or is this all we're going to get?
It's all we are going to get...the action stuff is a winning formula and so it won't be changed.
Quote from: Grimnirsson on October 02, 2014, 01:21:11 PM
It's all we are going to get...the action stuff is a winning formula and so it won't be changed.
Sir, you depress me! :'(
I'm not suggesting someone come up with a Tolkien game that's not about action and adventure ("At Home with Tom Bombadil: A Sing-Along Game for the Whole Family!" -- I don't see Turbine snatching up the rights to that anytime soon -- and please kill me if they do). But does it have to be the kind of action in Shadow of Mordor and LOTR Online?
I know how you feel and what you mean but look at the games we are getting with sequels on and on...the only games feeling different to me are the Souls games from From Software. Casual? Easy? Tutorials? Story? Fuck that...this game will kill you, simple as that so let's see if you can survive...the rest is the 'usual stuff'of games. Tolkien has created an authentic mythology, not a real one, because he invented it, but it's authentic...the games these days are simply not able to get that across. Read the books, watch the movies (as an interpretation of the books) and then play a game...then go back to the books.
Quote from: sandman2575 on October 02, 2014, 01:05:39 PM
Shadow of Mordor got me thinking about this, and I'd be curious to hear what other Grogs think –
The thing that's so striking to me, looking at Shadow of Mordor, is the idea that the Tolkien hero is an unstoppable killing machine. This is absolutely part of Jackson's legacy. His movies depict Aragorn and Legolas etc. as essentially invulnerable, blade-and-bow-wielding super ninjas in medieval garb. The real template here, I think, is The Matrix's Neo, not Tolkien, by a long shot.
Well, to be fair, the non-Hobbit portion of the Fellowship - as portrayed in the book - are pretty much videogame characters in terms of their invulnerablity and killing prowess. Think of Helm's Deep where Legolas and Gimli keep a running tally of orcs despatched by arrow and axe. Or Aragorn and Eomer cutting their way through swathes of enemy to meet up on Pelennor Fields. And so on.
To get back on topic, I think we will be stuck with the Jacksonised version of Middle Earth for videogames, purely because that's where the money lies. Like it or not, most people think that Aragorn looks like Viggo Mortensen and Gimli is a comedy side-kick. Thus if you want to make money, that is your frame of reference.
As a side issue, I think most of us would accept that games based on films are usually poor fare. Partly this is because the developers know that the name will sell and so they don't need to expend effort on making great gameplay. I also think that games and films are enjoyed in different ways. For me, a game works when the player creates their own story (be that in a wargame, FPS, RPG, RTS, or whatever). A film has its own story which is presented to the viewer and enjoyed passively. If you try to act out a film in game-form, then there is no narrative tension, because the story is already known, and thus that aspect of enjoyment is lost. On the flip-side, playing a film-based game and seeing deviations from the plot or character-behaviour, ie developing a fresh story, just seems wrong, at least to me.
Quote from: sandman2575 on October 02, 2014, 01:05:39 PM
Shadow of Mordor got me thinking about this, and I'd be curious to hear what other Grogs think –
I'm sure I'm not the only here who fondly remembers playing this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Middle_Earth_%281988_video_game%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Middle_Earth_%281988_video_game%29)....
Anyway, my point is *not* to wag a finger at Shadow of Mordor and say "bad, bad, bad!" It's just me thinking out loud – will future Tolkien games break this mold, or is this all we're going to get?
I still have
J.R.R. Tolkien's War in Middle Earth (http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/jrr-tolkiens-war-in-middle-earth) and
J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, Vol. I (http://www.mobygames.com/game/jrr-tolkiens-the-lord-of-the-rings-vol-i) (I regret not purchasing Volume II :'() sitting on a shelf at my home.
Sadly I think that type of game has lost out to whatever genre of PC game sells the most copies in today's "anything for a buck" world.
I've thought about this as well. I find it surprising that a really, really good game that sticks to the main LotR plotline hasn't been made.
I think that if somebody made a new Skyrim but it was pure LotR lore rather than Elder Scrolls, you can just roll up the armored truck and shovel the money in. It seems so obvious and I can't possibly imagine how it wouldn't sell like crazy, why doesn't somebody do it? Why don't I do it?
Quote from: Toonces on October 02, 2014, 10:02:02 PM
I've thought about this as well. I find it surprising that a really, really good game that sticks to the main LotR plotline hasn't been made.
I think that if somebody made a new Skyrim but it was pure LotR lore rather than Elder Scrolls, you can just roll up the armored truck and shovel the money in. It seems so obvious and I can't possibly imagine how it wouldn't sell like crazy, why doesn't somebody do it? Why don't I do it?
Just a thought, but I wonder what percentage of people who saw the Jackson Lord of the Rings movies and became fans, actually ever read the books? My guess is that a whole lot of them didn't read the books. I suspect most who did read the books also saw the movies. But many others who saw the movie never read the books. To them the movies are the story and it's what they want in a game. I don't, maybe?
I would kill to see a quality LOTR grand-strategy game get made -- if not in the mold of "War in Middle Earth" (much though I loved it), then in the mold of Age of Wonders III or Fallen Enchantress or Eador. A game that uses Tolkien's map of Middle Earth (the way "War in ME" did) as the main stage of play, with not only different races to play, but different factions/clans within the races (Elves of Mirkwood vs. Elves of Lothlorien, e.g. -- and as in the books, they're not always willing allies or friends).
I know there is an excellent Middle Earth mod for the Total War games, but that's not what I'm ideally talking about -- nor a Skyrim-ified version (although I have no doubt that would make tons of $$). Actually, if the guys at Longbow could convert the engine for Hegemony into a Middle Earth game, that would be pretty fantastic and pretty close to my ideal (...I won't hold my breath, though). A game that is not *essentially* about combat (although wars would obviously play a very large role), but about the 'geopolitics' of Middle Earth, about maintaining and growing your fiefdom, diplomacy and alliances, etc., somewhat in the manner of the Civilization games.
Also (since I'm just dreaming up whatever I want), I would want such a game to be based on an aesthetic that is defiantly *not* inspired by Peter Jackson, but which goes back in some way to Tolkien's own illustrations and the fan-art that started emerging in the 60s and 70s and 80s. (I know PJ drew on some of this as well, but the idea that the Ringwraiths *have* to look the way they do in the LOTR movies, or orcs or what have you, seems to be taken for granted now in Tolkien games, and it's getting lame.)
A vastly huge (and, at first, free to play) Skyrimmy version of LotR already does exist, though it's an MMO and I'm not sure how much of it can be feasibly played without needing other players to help out.
But while you kind of need to focus on combat to move through the story (which is not yet complete, being somewhere around the Paths of the Dead after Helm's Deep), you don't have to. You can spend your days tooling around the Shire countryside or wherever fishing if you want.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/212500/
I've been seriously thinking about getting into this game (at long last) for October Halloweenish themes.
Dear Sandman:
You have stated my main gripe with Jackson's presentation of Tolkien (I'm referring to the movies and not any games.) I like the movies but they don't create the atmosphere of the books in one crucial sense. Take The Hobbit, for example. The novel is a small, elegant, understated "adventure," in the same sense that Bilbo Baggins himself is small and understated. The three piece movie presentation (so far) is anything but. It is a spectacular, blockbuster presentation consuming more time than the time necessary to read the novel. The movies so far, are good in their own right but, in my opinion, wrong for for the Tolkien "style."
Johnnie,
The LotR movies themselves are closer to Tolkien style than the Hobbitses, that's for sure. But that's partly because PJ & Co. turned The Hobbit into a LotR epic, when it's rather a different kind of epic (and a much shorter epic, though still epic.)
Also, by now the series has dived over into what might as well be self-parody.
To be honest, I haven't been able to bring myself to watch any of Jackson's Hobbit movies, much as I like Martin Freeman. JRRT's The Hobbit is a children's adventure story. That's not a disparagement in the least -- it's a superb, completely wonderful and magical story. But the fact that Jackson has taken this children's story and turned it into a 3-part Hollywood blockbuster extravaganza is exactly the problem. One can only imagine what Tolkien himself would say if could see these movies, or video games like Shadow of Mordor. He wouldn't recognize them as legitimate representations of his books -- his son Christopher has said as much.
Does that mean that what Jackson has done, or what video game developers are doing, is wrong? No. It just means there's a lot that the Jackson version misses (or distorts) about the books, and video game developers should not automatically take the Jackson version of Tolkien as gospel.
edit - posted before I read Jason P's response, which I agree with --
Quote from: Grimnirsson on October 02, 2014, 01:21:11 PM
It's all we are going to get...the action stuff is a winning formula and so it won't be changed.
Given that this http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/DD-RECYCLEGTS/recycle-garbage-truck-simulator has been made maybe we should be looking down the simulator rather than the rpg route. If they can sell a bin man game then why not Hobbit Pipeweed Farmer Simulator or Elven Flounce Around All Day Singing and Looking Poncey Simulator or Dwarven Mining Simulator :)
Best RPG that I have come across yet that gets the feel right is The One Ring though that is tabletop rather than computer.
Considering that dwarven mining simulators have grown awfully popular over the past year (though that ship has apparently sailed -- haven't seen a new attempt to mimic the success of Dwarf Fortress in a while), a LotR-themed attempt of that sort might actually sell!
BUILD THE MINES OF MORIA!
Meanwhile, I'm 32% finished downloading the remaining 22% (maybe) of the updates and graphic upscales for Lord of the Rings Online -- over four hours of dl so far, including the original codes, and no clear end in sight. But it's free! (For a while, and technically forever as I've heard with some grinding even the $40 large expansion packages can be earned for free.)