I just read that some of the largest naval guns of the WWI era could fire a projectile up to 35km. In my head that is roughly about 60 miles. So, in theory, a WWI battleship could have fired it's largest guns while sitting in New York Harbor and hit my house up at West Point. Is this true? It seems amazing.
You're converting in the wrong direction, Gus. 35km is about 21 miles. And that was roughly the max range for the largest naval guns (figure 15-inch) in WWI. Still pretty amazing.
Oh. Well that's embarrassing. Now I feel like a ninny nanny. But there is a bright side. If a hostile yet backward power ever enters New York Harbor with WWI era battleships, my house is safe.
Trust me, if that's the worst thing that happens to you today you're doing just fine. And it is good to know that you'd be out of the danger zone of battleship fire. And you're probably okay should Godzilla come ashore in NYC. Looks like you might be effed if Indian Point ever went China Syndrome, though.
Quote from: mirth on February 03, 2012, 11:43:56 AM
Trust me, if that's the worst thing that happens to you today you're doing just fine. And it is good to know that you'd be out of the danger zone of battleship fire. And you're probably okay should Godzilla come ashore in NYC. Looks like you might be effed if Indian Point ever went China Syndrome, though.
Agreed, Godzilla should be fine. Let's just hope he never saw Clash of the Titans.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Flongblade%2FClash-Of-The-Titans-Kraken.jpg&hash=04cae6088e2b40d06ab2aaad9662326a34ec0a9f)
^Hmm. That may be an issue. My dog may be able to handle it though.
Indian Point is a concern. It may be close to getting shut down if our Governor has his way.
The range of that accidental blast would be at least 35km/60 miles :)
Much as I do love talking about Godzilla, the Kraken and nuclear disasters, here's a nice site about battleship gunnery:
http://www.cityofart.net/bship/gunnery.html (http://www.cityofart.net/bship/gunnery.html)
And a couple of cool pics of 15-inch guns:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cityofart.net%2Fbship%2F15in_barham.jpg&hash=777771fe2175e2764dca47e783f075103a551dee)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cityofart.net%2Fbship%2Fiwn_15in_gun.jpg&hash=22f9999118b36c79a79e9f2b52ae861c84cfac32)
Wow. Thanks for that. Good stuff.
In the original article I was reading that led to me spouting this thread it was commented that there is probably no one left alive who has ever heard a 15 inch gun firing.
Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2012, 01:38:07 PM
In the original article I was reading that led to me spouting this thread it was commented that there is probably no one left alive who has ever heard a 15 inch gun firing.
Something sits in the back of my mind that the last time a battleship fired its guns in anger was Gulf War I. I might be wrong there, but I think I'm not. It was the last thing done before the Iowa was retired, IIRC.
Could be I'm wrong - it appears that the New Jersey used its guns in Lebanon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_%28BB-61%29
Maybe some naval gurus here can shed some light on that.
And oh-by-the-way the Iowa had
16 inch guns, not 15. :o
I definitely remember the USS Missouri using its guns in 1991, but I don't know how big the Missouri's guns are (15 inch or not).
Missouri's an Iowa-class. They carried 16-inch guns.
Edit: Sorry LB, you already said that.
Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2012, 01:45:58 PM
I definitely remember the USS Missouri using its guns in 1991, but I don't know how big the Missouri's guns are (15 inch or not).
The USS Missouri had 16 inch guns. I Googled it (http://www.ussmissouri.com/visitor-information/interesting-facts) and my memory was correct:
QuoteThe nine 16-inch guns are the Mighty Mo's trademark feature. Each gun barrel is to approximately 67 feet long, weighs an incredible 116 tons, and can fire a 2,700-pound shell 23 miles in 50 seconds — with pinpoint accuracy.
There are some photos of her guns being fired on this site (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-m/bb63-k.htm).
So I suppose the original author (over at SimHQ) was correct about the 15 inch guns.
Rumour has it that after some of the Saudis witnessed a BB fire mission during Gulf War 1 they said they wanted to get one ! I forget what book I read that in - it may have been Sabre Squadron ????????
Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2012, 02:02:05 PM
So I suppose the original author (over at SimHQ) was correct about the 15 inch guns.
I remember reading about 14", 15", and 16" guns, but I'm no authority. This site (http://www.combinedfleet.com/b_guns.htm) shows the armaments of some 20th century battleships.
To Migs comment above, I'm sure there must be at least one navy somewhere in the world that still sports old school battleships. The Russians, perhaps? North Koreans? You know, a people that are not really known for talking softly and carrying big sticks but like a good display of force.
AFAIK the only battleship technically still not decommissioned anywhere is the USS Arizona...and it's not quite mission ready ATM.
What about the Black Sea Fleet? There has to be a 50 year old battleship or two embedded in there!
Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2012, 02:27:58 PM
What about the Black Sea Fleet? There has to be a 50 year old battleship or two embedded in there!
I spent about five minutes Google/Binging for some info. Nothing immediately pops up. There is a thread on Ars Technica similar to ours with a link, but Mozilla thinks it is a hostile link so I chose not to pursue it.
The short answer seems to be no naval power worth a crap uses them any more. Brant thinks there may be a couple in service being used as training vessels, but you guys will have to put some effort into a search to find out more.
Battleships are some of the coolest things ever built by man. Surely someone in some position of authority has at least one waiting for a revival.
I think we'd probably be closest of anyone. There's probably a remote possibility that we could put an Iowa back into action. I don't think anyone else has anything left. The Brits scrapped their battleships decades before we did. The Russians never really had any modern battleships and in the 70s-80s moved back to the 'battlecruiser' concept with the Kirov-class which were basically unarmored guided missile cruisers.
^Were you a sailor?
Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2012, 07:20:04 PM
^Were you a sailor?
No. Just a naval history buff. Took the ASVAB for the Navy when I was in college. They wanted to make a nuc. I kinda wished I had done it. My dad and grandad on my mom's side were both in the Navy.
Most of my family in the military has been in the Army. I had one Grandfather who served as a weatherman on a destroyer in the Pacific in WWII but he died when I was very young. I'm sure he had some good stories.
I'll bet he did have some good stories, Gus. Especially if his destroyer was attached to Halsey's group during either of the typhoons.
My grandad worked on the groundcrew of blimps that patrolled in the Atlantic. It may not have been glamorous, but he did have some good stories. I was lucky enough to hear some of them over the years. He really opened up about his experiences in the last few years of his life. It meant a lot to me.
^Wow that's cool. I've never met anyone who worked on the airships. The Grandfather I did know served throughout the entire war in North Africa, Sicily and Italy in the artillery and had tons of stories. Unfortunately he was badly traumatized and rarely if ever spoke about them. He saw a lot of friends die.
I had two uncles in WW II. One served on a corvette doing escort duty out of Halifax and the other was in the infantry and wounded in Belgium. Neither ever talked about their experiences - it appeared that talking about their experiences was frowned upon ..... :(
^Same with my Grandfather.
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 06, 2012, 07:43:12 AM
I had two uncles in WW II. One served on a corvette doing escort duty out of Halifax and the other was in the infantry and wounded in Belgium. Neither ever talked about their experiences - it appeared that talking about their experiences was frowned upon ..... :(
Well, to my thinking it's more about managing PTSD. Remember there were millions of these vets after the war. Hard to even guess how many had PTSD, but it wouldn't be surprising to think that a good portion of them did. The worst they could expect is some kind of Patton-esque ridicule, and the best they could get is a pass to head down to the VFW bar and drink it all away. No wonder these guys invented the three martini lunch. It was the only treatment they could get.
My Grandfather absolutely drank it away. Poor guy. And there I was a little rug rat, playing with toy soldiers and looking up to him as the greatest hero I ever knew. Still do (the hero part not the toy soldiers part). It must have been very hard for him, and my Grandmother, at a minimum.
I don't know anything about the experiences of my other Grandfather in the Navy. I don't even know where he was stationed other than 'on a destroyer.' And that may not even be accurate...I don't even know if destroyers during WWII had their own weathermen!
Not sure about weathermen on individual ships.
I had an uncle in flight school who died in a motorcycle accident, but his graduation would have put him in a unit after the war was over.
^Yeah that's what I mean. I would just hazard a guess that destroyers weren't important enough then to warrant getting their own weather dude. I would think he would be on a bigger ship. Which nicely completes the circle and brings us back to battleships :) Or close anyway.
Quote from: Gusington on February 06, 2012, 12:30:07 PM
^Yeah that's what I mean. I would just hazard a guess that destroyers weren't important enough then to warrant getting their own weather dude. I would think he would be on a bigger ship. Which nicely completes the circle and brings us back to battleships :) Or close anyway.
Battleships rock. I wish I had one.
And here we are again. I want a dreadnaught, not just an ordinary battleship :)
I'll name it the USS Portmanteau.
<chuckle>
If you guys want to wait until after payday I'll chip in !
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 06, 2012, 01:05:36 PM
If you guys want to wait until after payday I'll chip in !
We'll still need a Letter of Marque to make it any fun.
I feel a great game coming on here. A dreadnought[naught?] pirate simulation. Take to the high seas circa 1900 and seize what should be yours, using your 15" guns to blow away any naval forces that stand in your way!
Quote from: Gusington on February 06, 2012, 01:42:36 PM
I feel a great game coming on here. A dreadnought[naught?] pirate simulation. Take to the high seas circa 1900 and seize what should be yours, using your 15" guns to blow away any naval forces that stand in your way!
Gus you ought to see if you can get a copy of the boardgame (really minis) Fear God and Dread Naught. Created by Larry Bond, imagine a naval minis game played in an area about the size of your local grocery store's parking lot. Heh.
^I'm on it!
Wow I can get a copy for $10.00! But can I play alone?
Linky: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6540/fear-god-and-dread-nought
Quote from: Gusington on February 06, 2012, 01:52:26 PM
Wow I can get a copy for $10.00! But can I play alone?
Not sure. I bought a copy for like $90 when it was first issued.
This is a fairly complex minis game. You probably can play alone, but it will be better with friends. For $10, it's probably worth having just to have. Especially given the fact that you love the subject.
You guys are seriously in the running for thread twits.
OK so we agree that BBs are cool and that we want one, but what one would you want?
The Bismark? The Tirpitz?
The Yamamoto?
Maybe the Mighty Mo?
You obviously aren't paying attention.
We want the USS Portmanteau.
Quote from: LongBlade on February 06, 2012, 05:41:08 PM
You obviously aren't paying attention.
We want the USS Portmanteau.
Yup I am busted.... didn't read that bit.
I want the Tirpitz... just cuz.... german engineering at its pinnacle IMO
Quote from: Windigo on February 06, 2012, 05:43:14 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on February 06, 2012, 05:41:08 PM
You obviously aren't paying attention.
We want the USS Portmanteau.
Yup I am busted.... didn't read that bit.
I want the Tirpitz... just cuz.... german engineering at its pinnacle IMO
Iowa class (including the Missouri) were the penultimate BBs. They would have only been surpassed by the Montana
class which were never built. The Bismark and Tirpitz twins were rather puny by comparison. If you ever want to
start a flame war go to a naval grog site and post this question: "Who would have won? Yamato v. Iowa?" and then
grab your bowl of popcorn. Good times ;)
BTW, here is a good concept candidate for USS Portmanteau (look carefully):
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FStaggerwing%2F800px-Battleship-carrier_Ise.jpg&hash=4668ff861d4ec48b5dfffaa4200bfb25e3af5ba7)
another view:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FStaggerwing%2F800px-Ise1944.png&hash=1e7cf9197d5c9f80d0441c84c6ac656e33d129a0)
I love the carrier concept, but those guns amidships seem like a handicap. Why not put them under the stern runway? Maybe if a plane misses it takes out your guns? You still lose all field of fire to the aft - I think I'd place at least one of them on the stern and take the chance.
Nice find. Photoshop your work?
Quote from: LongBlade on February 06, 2012, 08:14:56 PM
I love the carrier concept, but those guns amidships seem like a handicap. Why not put them under the stern runway? Maybe if a plane misses it takes out your guns? You still lose all field of fire to the aft - I think I'd place at least one of them on the stern and take the chance.
Nice find. Photoshop your work?
I
wish I were so talented. No, this was the product of Japanese naval yards. It actually existed! In 1943 the IJN
converted two Ise- class BBs to this configuration. They were the Ise itself and the Hyuga. They were rather
underwhelming in their new intended role though.
If you've played the original Complete Carriers at War there is an option to use the USS San Francisco in a historically
proposed hybrid configuration. She, however, was merely a Heavy cruiser and thus not Portmanteau worthy.
Wow...can we rename that thing the Portmanteau?
Quote from: LongBlade on February 06, 2012, 12:31:14 PM
Battleships rock. I wish I had one.
This (http://www.worldofbattleships.com/) is probably the closest I will ever get to having a battleship.
I need to take a couple of photos of my Dystopian Wars dreadnought(s). But be forewarned: Gus will have a coronary.
^I've stocked up on nitro pills. Post!
Hi, fellers, great to find this thread.
Two sites that would increase the drool factor.
www.navweaps.com
www.combinedfleet.com
The first is a technical board on naval weaponry. Huge amounts of trivia on battleship guns.
The second is by the folks who brought you "Shattered Sword" on the Battle of Midway. One of the features is their ratings of WWII battleships. How they rate them, and the reasons why.
LB you should have gotten into collecting battleships about forty years ago. The World War One German Battlecruise, Goeben, was still in the Turkish Navy. The Turks finally sold her to Gillette, so you have probably been shaving with her for the last forty years.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-006.htm
Here is a link to an article that you likely will enjoy.
Besilarius! Now it's a party.
You're too kind, Gus.
Staggerwing, believe it or don't, but prior to Vietnam, the USN did make proposals to give the Iowas some aircraft capacity.
There were plans to remove turret three, and mkae the stern a huge helicopter hangar and deck.
The gunnery spaces below turret three would be reconfigured as a marine battalion space.
I suppose, it might be possible to even rig a ski-jump for Harrier aircraft, but they were only on the drawing boards back them.
A kind of backwards hybrid like Ise class.
For anyone hearing a 15"fire, I guess Normandy in 1944 would have done.
Or in 1940, when H.M.S. Warspite hit the Giulio Cesare between the funnels at 26,000 yards (!)
Quote from: Hartford688 on February 16, 2012, 05:32:43 PM
For anyone hearing a 15"fire, I guess Normandy in 1944 would have done.
Or in 1940, when H.M.S. Warspite hit the Giulio Cesare between the funnels at 26,000 yards (!)
Wow. Can you imagine? 26,000 yards. Talk about a sharpshooter.
There are lots of old sea stories about battleship gunnery. There were differences between the navies, but everyone realised the trick was hitting first. The psychological effect of being hit may have been (in the captain's mind) worse than the actual damage.
Getting hits was in practice a challenge. The interesting thing was that gunnery officers always figured they would get hits by the third salvo.
Don't know if this speaks more to the lack of realism in training exercises or to an overabundance of confidence.
In real life, at longer ranges, it depended on a lot of factors. When Hood and Prince of Wales made their advance, bow on, to shorten the range, there were near misses, but no hits. The rapid range changes made it impossible to get a successful firing solution. (That came with radar ranges and fire control computers.) The Hood was struck, from all evidence, during her turn.
This suggests she was slowing, during the turn, but also that there would have been a slant on her deck. Making a turn at high speed, she could have tilted in the direction of the turn by a fairly significant degree, perhaps up to ten degrees.
This may not sound like much, but deck armor was based on bouncing off hits because of the angle of strike. The nearer to perpendicular a hit made, the better it's chance of penetration.
Now Hood was a patchwork of armor, so it is unwise to suggest we know certainly what happened.
However, it is interesting to speculate what would have happened if Admiral Holland had chosen a shallower approach during which both Hood and POW would have been firing full broadsides.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm
Here is a link to a very comprehensive comparison of World War II battleships.
The authors are the same folks who wrote Shattered Sword, and they take a lot of factors into consideration.
Almost everything is laid out in tabular form with the most recent research.
Every Battleship fan should read this. You may not agree with their ratings, but the hard data is all in one place.
@ besilarius - thanks for the post, Dude - that's some excellent info.
+1 great link Belisarius. Those Shattered Sword guys do know their stuff. That book was incredibly well researched and written.
Glad you enjoyed it.
Somewhere I have a CD with a declassified report on naval gunfire support during Vietnam. If I can find it (if it wasn't pitched by accident), I'll try and post it.
It is fun because it compares the results of the Iowa to Newport News. I hope to find it soon.
Don't know if this photo will come through, but this seems to be old enough that it is not photoshopped.
Imagine the thrill you'd get being on the deck !!!!!! :o
Imagine the liquid your bowels would turn to once whatever the Hood was firing on fired back!
Quote from: Gusington on February 24, 2012, 10:19:57 AM
Imagine the liquid your bowels would turn to once whatever the Hood was firing on fired back!
I imagine the oceans would seem both terribly vast and deep in that situation.
I would not do well on one the decks of one of those ships even while not in combat. As much as I love to study them, the sea, and naval combat, are terrifying to me.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Bismarck_p2.htm
An interesting read on the final combat of Bismarck.
Great find, belisarius. Thanks for sharing the link!
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/battle-at-sea/query/Battleships+firing
It's a mixed bag, but Pathe newsreels was one of the great companies putting out newreel pictures for movie houses before television.
Here is one on warships during WWII. If you like the looks, go to their homepage and search for things like battleships or tanks.
.
Quote from: besilarius on April 15, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/battle-at-sea/query/Battleships+firing
It's a mixed bag, but Pathe newsreels was one of the great companies putting out newreel pictures for movie houses before television.
Here is one on warships during WWII. If you like the looks, go to their homepage and search for things like battleships or tanks.
Belisarius, do you have any idea if some of that footage is from the Channel Dash? Looked like it might be.
Anyway, another great link. Thanks!
Mirth, these newsreels could be just about anything. I saw some that showed germans manning equipment, and how British Pathe got those is a mystery, unless it was after the war.
Quote from: besilarius on April 17, 2012, 06:57:48 PM
Mirth, these newsreels could be just about anything. I saw some that showed germans manning equipment, and how British Pathe got those is a mystery, unless it was after the war.
What I figured. It's still very cool footage. Thanks again.
USS Texas has a near miss off Omaha Beach.
A near miss with one of those things is still close enough sometimes ;)
The USS North Carolina is moored in Wilmington, NC. I visited it a couple of times when I was living near there and it is a very cool experience. I've read that the USS Texas is the last surviving dreadnought in the world and it is moored at the San Jacinto battlefield. I'd like to get over there some time.
Gus, have you read Neptune's Inferno by James Hornfisher? It's a history of the naval battles around Guadalcanal and the climax of those battles was a one-on-one duel between the USS Washington and the IJN Kirishima. One of the best written books I've read in a while. Dreadnought and Castles of Steel by Robert Massie are really good as well and have all the information you could want about the evolution of the modern battleship.
Neptune'd Inferno...I will check it out. Massie is one of my favorite history authors. I loved Dreadnought. I have Castles of Steel waiting to be read...trying to match it with the perfect PC game.
I'm late to see this. +1 to Neptune's Inferno, great book!
Also Norman Friedman's U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History is a great read for theoretical designs and 'what might have been'.
Here is a report on testing done at the Naval Weapons Center in Dahlgren, Va. on a turret made for the IJN Shinano/Yamato class.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-040.htm
Interesting results and conclusions by the Dahlgren staff.
Interesting. Is the Dahlgren center related in any way to the guy who designed the guns for the USS Monitor? His name was also Dahlgren IIRC.
Yes, the center was named for him.
Not sure if it is open to the public on certain days, used to have tours once or twice a year.
They have more junk stored there than you can shake a stick at. After all the rebuilding done on the World War II destroyers (FRAM program), the 40mm Bofors guns were taken off. (Contrary to the summer movie, Battleship). For some reason all the east coast ships sent their mounts to Dahlgren. A friend who works there told me that they're all still there. Waiting in case someone else tries kamikaze tactics.
The Bofors was a good, maybe a great gun, but with it's limited range and reliance on the Mark I, Mod 0 eyeball for engaging the enemy, I doubt it would have much use today.
Now if Iran, or someplace, tried using masses of speed boats, then the Bofors might have a purpose again.