I'd say that my favorite genre of gaming is the 4X (EXplore, EXpand, EXploit, EXterminate) strategy game. In general, they feed my various gaming whims quite well. Historical, SciFi, or Fantasy moods can all be met by a 4X game.
My general criteria I like to have met in a 4X game:
1. Turned Based (Other than Sins of a Solar Empire, I don't enjoy real time 4X games.)
2. Map variety
3. Meaningful Resources
4. Faction variety
5. Distinct faction units and abilities/powers
6. Decent A.I.
I've been hooked on Illwinter and Amplitude designed games lately, but here's my short list of 4X games I really enjoy in no particular order.
Conquest of Elysium 3
Dominions 4
Endless Legend
Endless Space
Fallen Enchantress
Civilization V
No real point to the thread then hopefully a decent discussion of the pro/con of various 4X games. And ultimately a future purchase or play through of a game based on the discussion.
Big thumbs up for Endless Legend from one of the guys here at the office.
I'm totally addicted to Civ 5 here :)
I love a lot of 4x games -- off the top of my head, Civ IV, Gal Civ II, Distant Worlds, the quirky but vastly underrated Sword of the Stars II -- but (as I've complained here before), I also feel increasingly frustrated by how conventional the genre has become.
I find it amazing (and distressing) that 4x still has not evolved beyond the original Civilization, which is now nearly 25 years old. Sid Meier is a genius, but it's well past time for some creative devs out there to move past the template Civilization provided.
So many stale conventions by now: exploration with a beginning 'scout' unit that boils down to tedious 'fog of war' removal. Tech trees and tech rushing. Inert to nearly nonexistent diplomacy. Predictable population 'management' mechanics (unhappy? some rare spices will cheer you up!). No real domestic politics. Budget balancing that boils down to 'what's the biggest fleet / army I can maintain?'
Not to be a wet blanket here, Bison -- I'd just love to see something genuinely new here.
Aurora with all its fault is still by far the best :)
I am constantly underwhelmed with the diplomacy options of most 4x games.
I think Civ 5 also did a better job with the BNW expansion of adding hte "cultural" influence on people, but I don't think the effects are as strong as they could be.
The various Civs and Master of Magic own a giant chunk of my life...one that shall be difficult to confess on the last day.
Special love of late, though, for Rise of Nations, which, though MP, is properly a 4X. It's variable game speed settings and border-control mechanic make it a great game for LAN play here at Chez JK. Very pleased to finally get it on Steam for a song in the slightly upgraded new version.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
4x is also my favorite genre. Can't do much with fantasy (though i would love a lord of the rings 4x). My first love goes to Science-fiction and two games come out for me: Master of Orion and Birth of the Federation. Master of Orion 2 has plenty of excellent additions but some aspects push it behind the first MOO for me: smaller maps, unbalanced (game is a lot faster), darker UI and map, artwork that i am not too fond of (compared to 1).
What is important to me.
- Not too much micromanagement, especially units (while i enjoy civ 3, moving units in endgame is not fun).
- Turn-based strategy map
- Separate battle map (one of my biggest grips about Civ games)
- Good Diplomacy (but i hate to be ripped of like in GalCiv and Civ)...i want real deals...not too good but not bad either.
- Good AI (i don't mind if the AI tears me apart but without cheating).
I would have liked to see a real competition of Civilization with these aspects, like a Total War/Knights of Honor/Lord of the Realms 2/Caeasar II: Civilization kinda of thing. Civ games by Firaxis are not "realistic" enough for me. I really enjoyed the first Call to Power and regret that they gave up because i like the concepts better.
The last two games that go in here are currentely Horizon and Armada 2526. The interesting aspect in the diplomacy in Horizon is that the deal's options change with the mood and the deals already signed.
Some diplo options in BNW bug me, like Austria's being able to buy City-States outright (through their Diplomatic Option ability). Also that the Greeks, when operated by an AI, tend to squash City-States instead of gaining benefit from their increased relations with them. It all makes no sense when the AI handles it all.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 02, 2014, 01:30:13 PM
I am constantly underwhelmed with the diplomacy options of most 4x games.
I'm with you on this one. Across the board diplomacy has never really been figured out by any 4X game very well. Generally it's a choice of war or some sort of bribery prior to war. Occasionally you get the trade resource/technology, but unfortunately this also tends to be a very exploitable mechanic and I almost never do trades in my games.
Diplomacy has never been done well, and I'd argue that Technology hasn't been done very well either. Again, it's past time to move beyond the "Tech Tree" model. I think this mechanic has long outlived its usefulness. It's gamey and unrealistic as a representation of how technology develops and spreads.
I *liked* the passive tech research of Distant Worlds in that game's original form. Apparently, lots of players couldn't handle the novelty and insisted on standard tech trees, and the devs duly complied. I wish Distant Worlds would translate it's incredibly cool 'autonomous private economy' idea to technology as well -- where tech research would not be 'state directed' but there could be independent firms working on different things that you have no control over.
Some other less conventional approaches I like -- Sword of the Stars, where tech trees unlocks are randomized, you can go overbudget on reserach that's not panning out, or you can have an early breakthrough, or (perish the thought!) your r&d program might actually fail to unlock the tech! These are little changes, but they're a breath of fresh air from the usual "Now I'm researching lasers, and in 5 turns, I'll start in on some terra-forming, for balance" rigamarole.
Moving away from Space 4X -- I like how in Crusader Kings, technology passively and slowly spreads from region to region. No rushing trebuchets and heavily armored knights for you!
I like that approach - I'll have to check out Sword of the Stars.
And no, I've never played it, somehow.
I love SotSII. The ship-design alone is worth the price of admission (and you can get the "Enhanced Edition" for very cheap, with all the sales). There are things about it that are unquestionably clunky -- and talk about virtually nonexistent diplomacy, SotS has got that in spades. So, like Sins of a Solar Empire (another favorite of mine), it's much more ship warfare heavy than economics, politics, etc. But like I say, it does some neat things to shake up research.
I enjoy endless legends technology web. You can research any advancement in the unlocked age or you can go back to previous age but you pay with an increased cost. Also there are faction specific technologies or bonuses related to similar technology share between the factions.
I started playing Endless Space the last few days and I've really enjoyed it. I thought I would miss the tactical battles, but I haven't and the UI is great at displaying all the information you need.
I really enjoy 4x games as well. My favorites are MoO2, Distant Worlds, Imperium Galactica 2 and Sword of the Stars 1 and 2 for Sci-Fi, while fantasy themed 4x favorites are Age of Wonders SW (not played 3 enough yet), Heroes of Might and Magic 3, Warlords 1 and 2 and Dominions (3 and 4).
And Civ 3, 4 and currently 5 are favorites in a general sense.
Some of these games might be regarded as being focussed on strategy more than true 4x, but yet I think they blur the line enough to warrant them as being mentioned as 4x games.
SotS 2 is a game I keep returning to, as are Distant Worlds, Civ and Dominions.
-oOo-
Dominions does not have a diplomacy option between the player and the ai. I really don't miss it but negotiations aren't really in the lore either based on my limited exposure to the game so far.
I go back and forth about how I feel about a true micromanaged tactical levelike in fallen enchantress or a scripted tactical level like endless space/ legends or dominions.
I thoroughly enjoy Dominions but he's right. It has no diplomatic model so I dunno if it's quite in the same genre as some of these other 4X titles. It's a Grand Strategy, same as the others of course.
If they ever managed to, by some miracle, get the AI units to utilize all the spell types together well in battles I'd be enamored. Maybe even add a temporary truce option for a set amount of time. Then it would be the greatest of it's kind. ^-^ I suspect the AI programming required for improving the combat spell use, even if they were sorted into narrow logical categories by type, use, and relative value within that category (for use with such an AI), it would take a huge amount of work and testing. :-\
Dominion 3 and 4 are probably my favourite games of the genre though to be honest it's not my favourite genre.
I also started getting into Aurora but left it for awhile and the idea of relearning it all again puts me off. Though a great complex sci fi game.
Here's a different take on the 4X genre (http://apollo4x.com/)
Quote from: jejo68 on December 02, 2014, 01:24:46 PM
Aurora with all its fault is still by far the best :)
QFT!
I havent tried it on the new pc yet. hmmmm
Quote from: tgb on December 03, 2014, 05:03:50 PM
Here's a different take on the 4X genre (http://apollo4x.com/)
This has some potential.
Quote from: Bison on December 04, 2014, 09:42:00 AM
Quote from: tgb on December 03, 2014, 05:03:50 PM
Here's a different take on the 4X genre (http://apollo4x.com/)
This has some potential.
Intriguing. Seems to have fairly deep politics and economy. The card-based combat doesn't thrill me though.
Would be nice to see this get Greenlighted. Have to say, "Beyond Earth" confirms a lot of my worst fears about how stale and unimaginative 4X has become. The game is simply Civ5 with futuristic skin. And yet it sells like hotcakes. Maybe part of the reason 4X isn't evolving, is because customers seem so content with the same ol' same old, whereas games that go out on a limb (like this Apollo game, or AIWar, or SotS) risk getting 'niche-ified' or worse...
I'd say a game like Endless Legend has a number of unique 4X features. The way cities work is a perfect example. There is only one city allowed per area and the faction that owns the area can exploit any resource within the borders of that area. You can expand your city limits for more hammers/food/science, but there is a penalty associated with over expanding. It's similar to risk in some ways.
Quote from: sandman2575 on December 04, 2014, 10:23:30 AM
Quote from: Bison on December 04, 2014, 09:42:00 AM
Quote from: tgb on December 03, 2014, 05:03:50 PM
Here's a different take on the 4X genre (http://apollo4x.com/)
This has some potential.
Intriguing. Seems to have fairly deep politics and economy. The card-based combat doesn't thrill me though.
Once you learn the game, you'll find it's not as deep as it appears. That doesn't make it a bad game. The colonial policies, which you Have to address every turn, is just a system to keep your growth in check. There's flavor text to go with each one, but they don't actually do anything. What is nice about the game is that it's completely market based, and anything you would normally do in a 4X - exploring a planet, colonizing, building up military - is done in a single turn if you have the resources to pay for it. You'll never spend 5 minutes hitting the "End Turn" button waiting for something to happen.
The 4x genre has served as the backbone of my gaming
obsession habit for most of the years I've playing on the PC. Historical grand-strategy (among which I count both the Total War series and most of the Paradox games) is my second-favorite genre, but 4x has always been my first -- and greatest -- love.
My interest was first kindled in high school when I was watching my best friend play (what else :P )
Civilization, but it wasn't until
Birth of the Federation and (to a lesser extent)
Imperium Galactica II that I truly discovered the joy of 4x games for myself. In the last few years, more recent PC titles like
Armada 2526,
Distant Worlds, and
Pandora have stepped up to the plate. In addition, with
Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes and
Age of Wonders 3, I've finally been able to fully enjoy fantasy 4x games as well, not just those that are space/sci-fi-themed.
Features that I generally look for in my 4x games include:
1.) Turn-based (DW and IG2 being the two major exceptions)
2.) Decent AI (especially if it manages to not cheat too badly)
3.) A variety of playable factions that actually feel different from each other
4.) Some sort of controllable/tactical combat model (I suspect this is a major reason I've never truly gotten into the Civ series, and why I like, but not love, GalCiv 2)
5.) A good diplomacy system (and that the AI can handle)
Quote from: sandman2575 on December 02, 2014, 03:16:47 PM
I *liked* the passive tech research of Distant Worlds in that game's original form. Apparently, lots of players couldn't handle the novelty and insisted on standard tech trees, and the devs duly complied. I wish Distant Worlds would translate it's incredibly cool 'autonomous private economy' idea to technology as well -- where tech research would not be 'state directed' but there could be independent firms working on different things that you have no control over.
I actually liked DW's passive tech research as well. Would very much have liked an option to have retained that when the expansions were released.
Quote from: sandman2575 on December 02, 2014, 03:16:47 PM
Some other less conventional approaches I like -- Sword of the Stars, where tech trees unlocks are randomized, you can go overbudget on reserach that's not panning out, or you can have an early breakthrough, or (perish the thought!) your r&d program might actually fail to unlock the tech! These are little changes, but they're a breath of fresh air from the usual "Now I'm researching lasers, and in 5 turns, I'll start in on some terra-forming, for balance" rigamarole.
Moving away from Space 4X -- I like how in Crusader Kings, technology passively and slowly spreads from region to region. No rushing trebuchets and heavily armored knights for you!
I like these tech/research models as well. They feel a little more natural, more "real" (if you will).
Space Empires IV is also a good 4x game.
Dominions 3 in multiplayer is such a wild, hair-on-fire game that is uncomparable with anything else on the market.
Dominions 3 against the AI is a good game. There is such variation, especially depending on how you set the defaults and with all of the different empire types, plus god designs, that it is very fun. But Dominions 3 with humans compared to AI is not even close. This is even more so than most computer wargames.
Quote from: airboy on December 04, 2014, 05:08:24 PM
Dominions 3 in multiplayer is such a wild, hair-on-fire game that is uncomparable with anything else on the market.
Dominions 3 against the AI is a good game. There is such variation, especially depending on how you set the defaults and with all of the different empire types, plus god designs, that it is very fun. But Dominions 3 with humans compared to AI is not even close. This is even more so than most computer wargames.
And Dominions 4 is even better. ;)
Quote from: airboy on December 04, 2014, 05:08:24 PM
Space Empires IV is also a good 4x game.
Indeed...too bad about the fixed resolution though...
Really good discussion about Settlers
But what about the case where you start in a location, but you can see your proverbial Garden of Eden just a few hexes away? Civilization is a game of hundreds of turns, yes, but it's also a game of building success upon success. If you don't settle right away, on turn 1, and begin your empire, are you putting yourself at a permanent disadvantage?
http://www.firaxis.com/?/S=55fff2663071e55ce70d02738eb55ea7e0c62acc/blog/single/do-you-ever-move-your-settler
I tend to go with the idea that if I see a starting location significantly better than my current location I'll move it it's a turn or two distance away. Nothing is more annoying in a 4X game when you decide to settle and your explorer unit uncovers a resource rich starting location a turn or two away.
In my current Fallen Enchantress campaign I might be FUBARed because my starting location is tucked between two mountain ranges. Great defensive position, but there are hardly any resources within 10 turns worth of movement. Bad, bad, bad.
Quote from: Martok on December 04, 2014, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: sandman2575 on December 02, 2014, 03:16:47 PM
I *liked* the passive tech research of Distant Worlds in that game's original form. Apparently, lots of players couldn't handle the novelty and insisted on standard tech trees, and the devs duly complied. I wish Distant Worlds would translate it's incredibly cool 'autonomous private economy' idea to technology as well -- where tech research would not be 'state directed' but there could be independent firms working on different things that you have no control over.
I actually liked DW's passive tech research as well. Would very much have liked an option to have retained that when the expansions were released.
I liked the passive tech tree as well. I was really disappointed when the dev's gave into the civ crowd and introduced a standard tech tree early on. It could have used some refinement, but all novel system like that do. Look how long it took them to really get the economy in the game balanced. I hope they go back to something similar in DW2.
Quote from: Bison on January 19, 2015, 10:20:05 AM
Really good discussion about Settlers
But what about the case where you start in a location, but you can see your proverbial Garden of Eden just a few hexes away? Civilization is a game of hundreds of turns, yes, but it's also a game of building success upon success. If you don't settle right away, on turn 1, and begin your empire, are you putting yourself at a permanent disadvantage?
http://www.firaxis.com/?/S=55fff2663071e55ce70d02738eb55ea7e0c62acc/blog/single/do-you-ever-move-your-settler
I tend to go with the idea that if I see a starting location significantly better than my current location I'll move it it's a turn or two distance away. Nothing is more annoying in a 4X game when you decide to settle and your explorer unit uncovers a resource rich starting location a turn or two away.
In my current Fallen Enchantress campaign I might be FUBARed because my starting location is tucked between two mountain ranges. Great defensive position, but there are hardly any resources within 10 turns worth of movement. Bad, bad, bad.
It's decisions like these that make these games great. And the consequences of those early decisions can take many, many turns to become apparent. Do you then keep at it or throw up your hands and start over. I tend to go the second route.
It depends. Unless I'm attempting a really high difficulty level (which isn't too often to be honest), I'll give it a long go. Generally at lower difficulty levels, bad starts are more easily forgiven. What I find is that I'll walk into a turns on end, knock out, drag out war over a specific type of resource. This is especially true mid to late game when hidden resources are uncovered or room to expand it basically gone.
I think the 4x genre has been stagnant for years now. As some of you have pointed out, so many of the offers are just regurgitation's of each other. I've never really gotten into Civ IV, and I don't think I've picked up Civ V as they seemed, to me, to take a step backwards. I someone else said, I thought Call To Power was a much better game.
One thing I still wish would be included in a 4x game is an economy like in Victoria. You need raw materials to build basic items. You need basic items to more advanced items. With a model like this, it would help expand the trade and diplomacy. Do you trade to someone that your not on good terms with raw materials or goods they need to fight a war, or do you withhold those items to try and weaken them for later.
Quote from: Martok on December 04, 2014, 03:48:41 PM
Quote from: sandman2575 on December 02, 2014, 03:16:47 PM
I *liked* the passive tech research of Distant Worlds in that game's original form. Apparently, lots of players couldn't handle the novelty and insisted on standard tech trees, and the devs duly complied. I wish Distant Worlds would translate it's incredibly cool 'autonomous private economy' idea to technology as well -- where tech research would not be 'state directed' but there could be independent firms working on different things that you have no control over.
I actually liked DW's passive tech research as well. Would very much have liked an option to have retained that when the expansions were released.
I don't remember the original tech model in DW. I'll have to find the manual and look it up.
I think my favorite style of tech tree is found in sword of the stars. Randomized trees and cultural specific techs is really a great concept and changes strategies in a nice subtle manner.
Which reminds me I should get SotS and GalCiv 2 on steam since I had dealing with the old impulse system now that GameStop has completely jacked it up.
Quote from: Bison on January 19, 2015, 07:15:40 PM
I think my favorite style of tech tree is found in sword of the stars. Randomized trees and cultural specific techs is really a great concept and changes strategies in a nice subtle manner.
This.
Each faction should have different techs and different play styles. Adding randomized tech tree content makes each game feel further stylized.
I've put over 200 hours into SOTS II the last couple of months. For some reason it draws me in better than SOTS did and really captured my imagination. First and foremost in a 4x game the tech tree system must suit me for me to play for very long, its part of the flavor of 4x's that keeps me playing. SOTS II does this with flying colors as did the original game. A tech tree should be large and diverse while maintaining a mystery about what is to come. I love the tech tree in DW yet there is no mystery for me as I race through to get the ship builds I desire.
Armada 2526 Supernova (I just picked up the Gold Edition on Steam as well -- it was on sale, and I'll admit I like the convenience) and Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes are the two 4x titles that most have their hooks in me right now. One major aspect both games share is that they really force you to make difficult choices -- you can't build everything in a town/colony, you can't research everything, your heroes can't acquire every skill/spell/etc. I realize some people find that sort of thing frustrating (they hate being limited in their games anymore than is strictly necessary), but I really enjoy it.
Distant Worlds and Age of Wonders 3 still beckon as well, but I suspect Armada and FE:LH will keep their grip on me for some time to come yet.
You should be getting home Sunday mornings around the time we start MP Age of Wonders, Martok. Want in?
Quote from: MetalDog on January 28, 2015, 07:48:04 PM
You should be getting home Sunday mornings around the time we start MP Age of Wonders, Martok. Want in?
Well I can't say I'm not tempted.
Thing is, though, I'm not much of a competitive player per se. I generally don't like going around trying to conquer half the map -- unless that's the play-style favored by my chosen character/faction (and I don't choose those types very often) -- I more like to just "play Empire" in my own little corner of the world. I've always been more of a PvE than PvP guy.
Given that, I tend to not fit in well with MP matches (except for the rare occasions where the other players are like myself). I would almost certainly be little more than a speed bump for most of you guys. (Against
MD, I suspect I wouldn't even be that much...) :-[
Don't sell your self short, my friend. My reputation is inflated by my opponents. I much prefer an Empire building style rather than a Conquer the world style. It's why I keep losing at Civ IV on Monarch. I have come to believe that you have to always be at war or always preparing for it and I like to build World Wonders and spread my religion, etc.