Wow
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/world/americas/us-cuba-relations.html?_r=0
Hmmm.
I wonder how the expat Cuban community is going to react?
Obama doesn't have much use for prepping the ground, does he?
it aint Cold War Cuba by a long shot anymore.
Little Havana is not pleased: http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/12/17/little-havana-cubans-happy-for-gross-angry-at-administration/
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 17, 2014, 12:52:47 PM
it aint Cold War Cuba by a long shot anymore.
I know that. But there doesn't appear to be any gain from doing this.
In the long run, isn't Cuba in the US sphere of influence, and can't they both gain from this?
I've heard from numerous people that Cuba is a great place to vacation, mostly because Americans do not go there and F things up with our diabeetus and large amounts of disposable income.
I know of some UK folks in my company that want to vacation there as they've heard good things from co-workers.
Honestly, it's been a long time coming, but if you want to vacation there, do it now before the cruise lines, resort hotels, and touristy sh!t ruins all of it eventually.
oh theres a shitload of gain from where I sit. at the very least its the last step in making Miami the de facto banking capitol of the region. theyve had their time without Fidel as their glorious leader and can now return to the fold of legit Caribbean nations.
and all those classic cars returning to the market! :smitten:
it will drop the bottom out of that market but in the short term it will make them affordable to people like us.
There are legit Carribbean nations?
And think of all the fine cigars we'll be able to order online!
people have been able to get Cubans for a loooooong time. long enough that theyve lost their mystic.
And hopefully this will keep Putin's newly resurrected Soviet Union away from there.
Maybe I should play Tropico this weekend.
Well I'm not sure I'm entirely pleased with the manner in which it transpired, but I agree it's probably about time (and then some).
Quote from: LongBlade on December 17, 2014, 12:48:55 PM
Hmmm.
I wonder how the expat Cuban community is going to react?
I suspect he doesn't give a damn -- which I'm guessing is what you were (more or less) getting at?
Glad I got to see it before it gets Borged and every street corner has a shopping mall, a Starbucks, or a McDonalds.
Wrong Martok. They very much give a damn.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 17, 2014, 01:05:43 PM
oh theres a shitload of gain from where I sit. at the very least its the last step in making Miami the de facto banking capitol of the region. theyve had their time without Fidel as their glorious leader and can now return to the fold of legit Caribbean nations.
No doubt trade will flourish. There are going to be economic benefits.
But...Cuba is still a totalitarian regime, no?
meh. no worse then NYC IMHO.
And Cuba's more likely to democratize.
Guys, Cuba is still on the official list of state sponsors of terror.
Watching the news a Senator on TV just not named them as passing intel to Iraq prior to the 2003 war.
Cuba has not been a friendly nation and certainly doesn't merit unilateral stepping back from sanctions without serious concessions in return.
This is a bad move.
Meh. It's time. Fidel's dead. Time to turn the page.
With 'allies' like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq, I'm not too worried about establishing diplomatic relations with Cuba and letting citizens travel there for vacation.
hes still alive.
Shit. Nuke 'em then.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 17, 2014, 08:05:54 PM
hes still alive.
Yeah, Fidel's like the energizer Bunny of dictators, still banging on his drums even from the sidelines.
When was the last time he was in public? I thought he was on death's door a few years ago.
Quote from: mirth on December 17, 2014, 08:28:38 PM
When was the last time he was in public? I thought he was on death's door a few years ago.
He was. And still is.
Unfortunately Cuba stopped importing exploding cigars a few years ago, so we're going to have to wait for mother nature to take her time.
Can't wait for the outpouring of adoration and proclamations of his 'greatness' when he does pass ::)
Well, now we can conquer Cuba the way we've done with so much of the world: McDonalds and Coca-Cola!
Those poor bastards might have been better off with the sanctions.
Quote from: mirth on December 17, 2014, 09:58:18 PM
Those poor bastards might have been better off with the sanctions.
Nah. Mickey D's and Starbucks are victory banners of capitalism. We shall gleefully plant them on Cuban soil!
I'm curious as to how the few State-run media outlets in Cuba will spin this. Maybe someone still reads their newspapers before wiping with them?
have any of you ever seen Juan of the Dead?
The bigger issue that is ultimately going to bite us in the ass is the new soft power foreign policy that conducts negotiations with hostage takers be they state or non-state players. Enjoy the cigar perhaps it'll make the decline less painful.
Interesting timing
Double down on Sanctions on Russia
Approve military aid to Ukraine
and now right before Putin has to go and give a speech on how wonderful his foreign policy decisions are and how well they are working out
Cuba is split from its long time ally and moved from Russian sphere of influence into US
All in all it will make the average Russian wonder if life is as good as the propaganda machine is telling them it is
Con
Yeah because Cuba is the only influence Russia has in the Western Hemisphere.
Quote from: Bison on December 18, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
Yeah because Cuba is the only influence Russia has in the Western Hemisphere.
Since Venezuela is not exactly a Power Ascendent anymore, Argentina's economy is actually hoarding dollars right now, and Brazil is focused on becoming the economic Germany of South America, Russia is out in the cold over here. Also, when Cuba starts exporting cheap but well trained doctors into the US billions of healthcare dollars will become available for smacking around Russia's economy some more.
yeah, ok.
Man, the talking heads on Special Report were railing against this decision. Even Juan Williams, who normally is a go-to apologist for Obama, was highly critical.
Might it have been time to warm relations? Perhaps. (Though I think we were waiting for Fidel to keel over before making the overture.) But we should have done so in exchange for human rights reform, cessation of terror links...anything.
Maybe there's a national figure out there who supports this, but I haven't seen them yet.
Plenty of other Western Civ nations have kept up diplomatic relations with Cuba all this time.
How much difference did they ever make? (Kind of a serious question: my impression is zilch, but maybe I'm wrong...?)
It's weird to see a move so blatantly "Twilight Struggle". What do Cubans get out of this? Nothing I can see, now or later. American people? Nothing; maybe less than nothing if labor export becomes an issue. Cuban leaders? ...some prayers from Pope Francis? Maybe?
Obama? "Look, I know my regime has been very much a fool's errand from beginning to end, and everything I've touched has turned to poot, but LOOK I'M BETTER THAN JFK, WOOOO! (Also, putting that card on Cuba at a time when Putin needs that influence card, score.)"
partisan politics aside Ive been living on the front line of this topic most of my life. I dont care what the reasons for the sudden move are, its a good thing. elements of the government might suck ass but the people are as solid as can be. it pains me to say it but if I have the choice of choosing between your typical red neck sub contractors and a family run Cuban bunch Im picking the Cubans. the Tony Montana stigma is a very thin veneer played up by the media.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fmasonry%2F000%2F681%2F251%2Fd37.jpg&hash=eed1f23a2a7dc4abe09c738ea3dc5be0dbb72424)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 17, 2014, 03:43:48 PM
Wrong Martok. They very much give a damn.
I agree. What I said was that Obama probably doesn't give a damn what they (the Cuban-American community) thinks. :P
How big is the Florida Cuban-American vote? Big I guess.
The US was able to get things going again with Vietnam, and the news doesn't make much fuss about what old vietnamese ex-pats think. Many of them re-invested in Vietnam themselves. The opportunity for growth in Vietnam has gone up, with China & US investment over the last 20 years. Obviously there is a corrupt government, and there are unhappy folk. But they aren't suffering as much as they did in the 1980's, so that's progress. However I don't think Vietnam could isolate itself economically against either China or the US. Same for Cuba (despite what the Castro family thinks).
The other viewpoint is perhaps people see the US as not dealing from a position of strength (i.e. not getting much in return from this decision, or getting the Cuban regime to actually do something in return for resumed relations)
Something good may come of this:
QuoteA thaw in relations between the U.S. and Cuba could help bring two cop killers and dozens of other fugitives granted asylum by the island nation to justice, law enforcement authorities hope.
The full implications of the diplomatic breakthrough announced Wednesday by President Obama are not yet known, but New Jersey State Police Superintendent Col. Rick Fuentes said he immediately thought of Joanne Chesimard, the Black Liberation Army militant who killed a state trooper in 1973 and later escaped prison and fled to Cuba. Chesimard, now 67, remains on the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorist List, as well as New Jersey's Most Wanted List.
"We view any changes in relations with Cuba as an opportunity to bring her back to the United States to finish her sentence," Fuentes said in a statement. "We stand by the reward money and hope that the total of $2 million will prompt fresh information in the light of this altered international relationship."
source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/18/law-enforcement-agencies-hopeful-to-bring-back-fugitives-exiled-in-cuba/
I'm not sure that this is good thing or not. Watching a report on CNBC today, they were talking about some economic reforms that were made that allows some small private business. It seems to have been a big success. What I'm afraid is that Cuba may evolve into another China. A central controlling government with a semi free market.
The one thing I don't like about this, is that Obama seems to have made this decision on his own with no consultations with Congress. Especially with someone like Marco Rubio. Obama has shown once again that he has no interest in working with anyone, but wishes to be like Fidel.
Cuba is a brutal communist dictatorship. The government attacks freedom of speech, religion, assembly etc.....
Cuba exported troops to distabalize many countries in South and Central America, and Africa through the fall of the USSR. After the USSR fell and the massive subsidies from Moscow stopped, Cuba became financially unable to sustain their military adventures. Their troops came home.
Today Cuba gets lots and lots of cheap oil from Venezuala, and not a lot of other foreign aid. Their ability to cause the US or other democratic States a lot of trouble is minimal.
A bunch of you talk about the tourist trade. In Cuba foreigners must spend hard currency when in vacation areas - all of which are owned by the Cuban government. The Cuban workers who maintain and serve in the vacation areas are paid in next-to-worthless Cuban pesos.
It seems like Obama "negotiated" a pretty bad deal given how weak Cuba is currently. But Obama's inability to negotiate a decent deal is obvious to anyone at this point excepting a strong partisan. Where have any Obama negotiations worked well? He cannot successfully negotiate anything in the USA outside of other liberal democrats (he has no major agreements in the Illinois legislature, as a US Senator, or as President). The biggest deal he negotiated with the other party as President was extending most of the Bush tax cuts - and he famously pitched a fit about it and promised he would never do another agreement like it (a promise he has kept - i.e. no other major agreements with the other party). His Mideast negotiations went nowhere. Ditto Iran, Afganistan, Iraq, Europe, Russia........
The economic sanctions against Cuba originate in legislation. Obama can't do anything about that except not enforce the law. Oh, wait a minute, he has already done that on multiple other occasions!
Quote from: OJsDad on December 18, 2014, 04:40:08 PM
The one thing I don't like about this, is that Obama seems to have made this decision on his own with no consultations with Congress.
Maobama's standard M.O.
Sounds like he's doing it to make some kind of Nixon-to-China legacy for himself. Something to point to as some "grand diplomatic success" after all the failures, circumventions, and scandals his administration perpetrated.
Quote from: Nefaro on December 18, 2014, 05:54:50 PM
Sounds like he's doing it to make some kind of Nixon-to-China legacy for himself.
The "Nixon going to China" deal was a major event because a staunch Anti-Communist - Nixon - was willing to extend an olive branch to China. It was a big deal.
This is more like "Fidel Visits Brezhnev."
Obama's been a naughty little boy, using 'presidential memorandums' as if they were Executive Orders to go under the radar, then sit and claim he's used the fewest Executive Orders of any President.
Bullsh!t.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/12/16/obama-presidential-memoranda-executive-orders/20191805/
hmmm I didnt get that memo.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 17, 2014, 01:03:15 PM
I've heard from numerous people that Cuba is a great place to vacation, mostly because Americans do not go there and F things up with our diabeetus and large amounts of disposable income.
I know of some UK folks in my company that want to vacation there as they've heard good things from co-workers.
Honestly, it's been a long time coming, but if you want to vacation there, do it now before the cruise lines, resort hotels, and touristy sh!t ruins all of it eventually.
As a Canadian, I'm always amused by this "Americans will ruin it" attitude. I've heard people blame: Americans, British, Germans, and Canadians for ruining certain vacation spots. A bunch of loud, rude, drunken assholes can ruin a vacation- doesn't matter where they come from.
Now I've never been to Cuba, but I know lots of people who have been there, many have gone repeatedly. The main things that I hear are: the food is mediocre, but the people are nice. Maybe once Cuban-American relations are full restored, the food will improve on Cuban resorts. But I can't imagine Americans "ruining it" any more than the Brits, Canadians and Germans already have.
Quote
.. all of which are owned by the Cuban government.
Not true.
Melia Hotels International owns many Cuban resorts. It is a Spanish company.
Tryp Hotels owns many Cuban resorts. Tryp is owned by Wyndham Worldwide, HQ is in New Jersey.
I could go on.
From what I am told, the Cuban resort workers fare a bit better than the average Cuban. But that is not saying much, compared to the average Canadian, American, Brit, etc. Whereas when one travels to Mexico or the Dominican, one tips the staff good service; when one travels to Cuban, one brings gifts for the staff. Things like sunglasses, ball hats, t-shirts, school supplies for kids.
Quote from: Centurion40 on December 19, 2014, 09:55:00 AM
But I can't imagine Americans "ruining it" any more than the Brits, Canadians and Germans already have.
We're the Great Satan. We ruin everything. ::)
Quote from: Centurion40 on December 19, 2014, 10:06:52 AM
Quote
.. all of which are owned by the Cuban government.
Not true.
Melia Hotels International owns many Cuban resorts. It is a Spanish company.
Tryp Hotels owns many Cuban resorts. Tryp is owned by Wyndham Worldwide, HQ is in New Jersey.
I could go on.
From what I am told, the Cuban resort workers fare a bit better than the average Cuban. But that is not saying much, compared to the average Canadian, American, Brit, etc. Whereas when one travels to Mexico or the Dominican, one tips the staff good service; when one travels to Cuban, one brings gifts for the staff. Things like sunglasses, ball hats, t-shirts, school supplies for kids.
The international companies must contract with companies 100% owned by the Cuban Communists. Gains from the enterprises go directly to the Cuban government. Pay for the workers is not in foreign currency. Cuba does this to capture all of the hard currency for the government. What I wrote was true, but incomplete. What you wrote is also true, but supports what I wrote initially.
If the workers could obtain hard currency tips and whatnot, then the need to bring "gifts for the staff" goes away. What you wrote (which is exactly what I saw traveling in communist countries in the 1980s) demonstrates that the domestic cuban workers in foreign areas have to rely on barter from "gifts" instead of just money like everyone else.
Quote from: Centurion40 on December 19, 2014, 09:55:00 AM
As a Canadian, I'm always amused by this "Americans will ruin it" attitude. I've heard people blame: Americans, British, Germans, and Canadians for ruining certain vacation spots. A bunch of loud, rude, drunken assholes can ruin a vacation- doesn't matter where they come from.
Now I've never been to Cuba, but I know lots of people who have been there, many have gone repeatedly. The main things that I hear are: the food is mediocre, but the people are nice. Maybe once Cuban-American relations are full restored, the food will improve on Cuban resorts. But I can't imagine Americans "ruining it" any more than the Brits, Canadians and Germans already have.
Well, admittedly, I heard a caller to the Opie show say exactly what you're saying - and he claimed to be Canadian as well. He was essentially saying "don't go there you a$$holes, you'll screw it all up," and the radio guys took it a few steps further in conversation. American dollars starting to pour in would mean prices would go up, effectively ruining it for those that enjoy their vacations there.
I can get a cheaper vacation to the Dominican Republic than I can get to Cuba. Americans are allowed to go there. Can't imagine a wave of American tourists driving up prices in Cuba, in the long run. Maybe short term as Americans rush (if that even happens) to partake of forbidden fruit.
Quote from: airboy on December 19, 2014, 11:07:33 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on December 19, 2014, 10:06:52 AM
Quote
.. all of which are owned by the Cuban government.
Not true.
Melia Hotels International owns many Cuban resorts. It is a Spanish company.
Tryp Hotels owns many Cuban resorts. Tryp is owned by Wyndham Worldwide, HQ is in New Jersey.
I could go on.
From what I am told, the Cuban resort workers fare a bit better than the average Cuban. But that is not saying much, compared to the average Canadian, American, Brit, etc. Whereas when one travels to Mexico or the Dominican, one tips the staff good service; when one travels to Cuban, one brings gifts for the staff. Things like sunglasses, ball hats, t-shirts, school supplies for kids.
The international companies must contract with companies 100% owned by the Cuban Communists. Gains from the enterprises go directly to the Cuban government. Pay for the workers is not in foreign currency. Cuba does this to capture all of the hard currency for the government. What I wrote was true, but incomplete. What you wrote is also true, but supports what I wrote initially.
If the workers could obtain hard currency tips and whatnot, then the need to bring "gifts for the staff" goes away. What you wrote (which is exactly what I saw traveling in communist countries in the 1980s) demonstrates that the domestic cuban workers in foreign areas have to rely on barter from "gifts" instead of just money like everyone else.
Yep.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 19, 2014, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on December 19, 2014, 09:55:00 AM
As a Canadian, I'm always amused by this "Americans will ruin it" attitude. I've heard people blame: Americans, British, Germans, and Canadians for ruining certain vacation spots. A bunch of loud, rude, drunken assholes can ruin a vacation- doesn't matter where they come from.
Now I've never been to Cuba, but I know lots of people who have been there, many have gone repeatedly. The main things that I hear are: the food is mediocre, but the people are nice. Maybe once Cuban-American relations are full restored, the food will improve on Cuban resorts. But I can't imagine Americans "ruining it" any more than the Brits, Canadians and Germans already have.
Well, admittedly, I heard a caller to the Opie show say exactly what you're saying - and he claimed to be Canadian as well. He was essentially saying "don't go there you a$$holes, you'll screw it all up," and the radio guys took it a few steps further in conversation. American dollars starting to pour in would mean prices would go up, effectively ruining it for those that enjoy their vacations there.
So, does that mean Canadians should stay home since they're rude when then come to the US.
No it just means talking heads on TV need a real job [emoji4].
Tourists will be tourists and the fact is they can be good for a countries economy.
^ Pretty much.
It was just one obnoxious Canadianistaner. I'm sure Canada has their share of them. ;)
Quote from: OJsDad on December 22, 2014, 09:45:44 AM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 19, 2014, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on December 19, 2014, 09:55:00 AM
As a Canadian, I'm always amused by this "Americans will ruin it" attitude. I've heard people blame: Americans, British, Germans, and Canadians for ruining certain vacation spots. A bunch of loud, rude, drunken assholes can ruin a vacation- doesn't matter where they come from.
Now I've never been to Cuba, but I know lots of people who have been there, many have gone repeatedly. The main things that I hear are: the food is mediocre, but the people are nice. Maybe once Cuban-American relations are full restored, the food will improve on Cuban resorts. But I can't imagine Americans "ruining it" any more than the Brits, Canadians and Germans already have.
Well, admittedly, I heard a caller to the Opie show say exactly what you're saying - and he claimed to be Canadian as well. He was essentially saying "don't go there you a$$holes, you'll screw it all up," and the radio guys took it a few steps further in conversation. American dollars starting to pour in would mean prices would go up, effectively ruining it for those that enjoy their vacations there.
So, does that mean Canadians should stay home since they're rude when then come to the US.
No more than Americans should stay home because they are rude when the come to Canada. :coolsmiley:
But such comments are hyperbole because anyone can be rude, and anyone can be nice. It's bullshit to say that travelling Americans are any more rude than travelling Canadians, or Brits, or Germans, or Australians, etc., etc.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 22, 2014, 10:51:06 AM
^ Pretty much.
It was just one obnoxious Canadianistaner. I'm sure Canada has their share of them. ;)
Thousands. Maybe even hundreds of thousands. If our population was larger, there would be even more.
bullshit. this time of year the ball is firmly in Canadistanians court. if I see one more mfing Quebec plate.... >:(
Oy, quit complaining and open up a poutine resto with some Cubans , and then rake it all in and you'll be laughing instead! Opportunity!
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 23, 2014, 01:45:48 PM
bullshit. this time of year the ball is firmly in Canadistanians court. if I see one more mfing Quebec plate.... >:(
Who whoa whoa! Quebecers are NOT Canadians. Ask them, they'll tell you! >:D
Right, they're French!
They don't have Canadian attitudes!
::)
Quote from: Arctic Blast on December 23, 2014, 03:45:36 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 23, 2014, 01:45:48 PM
bullshit. this time of year the ball is firmly in Canadistanians court. if I see one more mfing Quebec plate.... >:(
Who whoa whoa! Quebecers are NOT Canadians. Ask them, they'll tell you! >:D
But only if you ask
en français.
As long as the passport says Canada :)
Well I'm born in quebec, dad from Greece, Mom is Acadienne French from new brunswick, both met in Quebec, I still live here, am a Canadian and Quebecer. Speaking 3 languages, learning Chinese.
Tons of Quebecers (and other Canadians) or 'snowbirds' head to Florida (or southern US or rest of Carribbean) each winter, alot are french speakers but not necessarily only French speakers.
Likewise Quebec City, Montreal and the Laurentian's gets lots of foreign tourists all winter long.
Quote from: endfire79 on December 24, 2014, 03:21:56 AM
Likewise Quebec City, Montreal and the Laurentian's gets lots of foreign tourists all winter long.
Saint-Georges is a fun little city to visit as well.
Endfire, do you people drive this poorly at home?
Here's all the French you need to know:
- French fries
- French kiss
- French horn
- French reach-around
- Parisian Steamer
- Monaco GP
- Merde (Wassup?)
- Je t'emmerde (Greetings!)
- Sais-tu combien de temps ta mère prend pour chier? Neuf mois! (Excuse me, can you please tell me what time it is? My watch is broken.)
- Va te faire foutre, enculé (You are a splendid chap, thank you)
- Fiche moi le paix (Please, get closer so we may Gus-hug)
You'll make lots of friends with those last few. 'Mange ma bitte' is also a nice way to thank your waiter.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 24, 2014, 09:34:14 AM
Endfire, do you people drive this poorly at home?
You should visit Montreal and rent a car. Spring for the insurance. You'll find out, first hand.
Lol at the expressions.
@Star, unfortunately yes there's a lot of bad drivers up here as well. The only thing they got right is the cops can give you a ticket for driving Sunday style in the passing lane. In Ontario you only get a 'warning'.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 24, 2014, 09:39:36 AM
Here's all the French you need to know:
- French fries
- French kiss
- French horn
- French reach-around
- Parisian Steamer
- Monaco GP
- Merde (Wassup?)
- Je t'emmerde (Greetings!)
- Sais-tu combien de temps ta mère prend pour chier? Neuf mois! (Excuse me, can you please tell me what time it is? My watch is broken.)
- Va te faire foutre, enculé (You are a splendid chap, thank you)
- Fiche moi le paix (Please, get closer so we may Gus-hug)
France French, different style, but points for the effort. I try to keep my expletives to a minimum, tabahouaite.
Obama is set to meet with Raul Castro in Panama. Also the State Dept is recommending removing Cuba from the list of State Sponsors of Terrorism.
US Embassy in Havana has reopened
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/21/world/americas/cuba-us-embassy-diplomatic-relations.html
QuoteThe official celebration to inaugurate the American Embassy will not take place until later in the summer, when Secretary of State John Kerry plans to visit, to formally raise the flag and install the new signage.
Kerry's a real hands on Sec State, installs new signage and everything!
It'll be boss if he mimes spitting on his hands and rubbing them together before nailing up the sign.
He should bring both in his PT boat with a few marines.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 21, 2015, 09:14:52 AM
He should bring both in his PT boat with a few marines.
<pssst> It's a Swift boat, not a PT.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbrownwater-navy.com%2Fvietnam%2Fphotos2%2FPCF.jpg&hash=08a8c9fc79d2ea76418363ba407165e1a2d1d3c3)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.savetheptboatinc.com%2FPT658stagedphoto.JPG&hash=9eccf623ef71d7cce82eee81c10ab4ad23f74974)
Whatevs. As long as the visual of a US manly leader is out there, bear rider will gnash his teeth.